The new FE10 draft tier list

[Florete]

I'll stop you at the first sentence: "How is this different from other games". FE10 is very different from other games, and you should be able to see why.

Hard mode just accentuates any bad team members though

How is that different from other FE games? It's the reason our standard tier lists are for HM in the first place.

Yes, because not liking HM is a bad reason to not like playing it under restrictive conditions. Someone shoot him for ever not like doing something because he doesn't like.

Just because he doesn't like it doesn't mean it's stupid.

Thank you, Radiant Dragon. Pretty much exactly what I was going to say.

[Zkirsche]

Hard mode just accentuates any bad team members though

How is that different from other FE games? It's the reason our standard tier lists are for HM in the first place.

Moreso in RD than, say, PoR, for example.

Also, playing is not the same as arguing.

Thank you, Radiant Dragon. Pretty much exactly what I was going to say.

Because he thinks it's stupid to debate something that isn't fun that's why. Isn't that why our tier lists aren't super 100% efficiency?

[Florete]

Because he thinks it's stupid to debate something that isn't fun that's why. Isn't that why our tier lists aren't super 100% efficiency?

Because his definition of fun is the standard for everyone.

[Zkirsche]

Because his definition of fun is the standard for everyone.

That's the thing: It's his fucking opinion.

[Paperblade]

There was a 50 turn disparity between first and second place in the first HM Draft, and the second one not enough people finished to actually have results (and by that I mean you're the only one that finished, at least according to Integ's Draft FAQ). That's over twice as large as every NM Draft except for the second (where the turn disparity is usually around 20 between first and second), which is probably because one team picked 8 people with little/no availability (half of which were Laguz, making them even weaker) + Volug/Gatrie/Mist and I have no idea what Integ was doing (then again Integ also doesn't play srs).

Plus even more of the cast is useless due to the difficulty increase, when units such as Mist were already cutting it close, we now have all the shitty units from regular FE10 play (for example, Soul said he didn't use Lyre except to Shovebot and Sal implied he thought Vika was do nothing) sucking harder than they did in NM drafts and all of our OP friends from NM drafts being even better because they didn't need the BEXP to prop them up.

Edit: Also last I checked HHM Drafts are dying because no one completes them because they're apparently too hard.

Double Edit: Also Soul said he was thinking about making a new tier list. I gave him my opinion (That FE10 HM Drafting is a bad/stupid format and that the tier list would be too similar to this one and the other only semi-active tier list on the site and that he should maybe do another game instead).

Edited June 14, 2011 by Paperblade

[Zkirsche]

I gave him my opinion (That FE10 HM Drafting is a bad/stupid format and that the tier list would be too similar to this one and the other only semi-active tier list on the site and that he should maybe do another game instead).

How dare you give someone your opinion on something. Go sit at the back of the class.

[Florete]

There was a 50 turn disparity between first and second place in the first HM Draft, and the second one not enough people finished to actually have results (and by that I mean you're the only one that finished, at least according to Integ's Draft FAQ). That's over twice as large as every NM Draft except for the second (where the turn disparity is usually around 20 between first and second), which is probably because one team picked 8 people with little/no availability (half of which were Laguz, making them even weaker) + Volug/Gatrie/Mist and I have no idea what Integ was doing (then again Integ also doesn't play srs).

First off: what the hell does turn disparity matter? Sure, it's a competition, but before that, it's just for fun. Also, Silith did finish the second one before I did (before I even started) but never got her score recorded, possibly because in the end we weren't entirely sure what it would be. Soul finished through part 3 and someone else (forget who) is on 4-3, so it isn't too unlikely that they'll finish.

Plus even more of the cast is useless due to the difficulty increase, when units such as Mist were already cutting it close, we now have all the shitty units from regular FE10 play (for example, Soul said he didn't use Lyre except to Shovebot and Sal implied he thought Vika was do nothing) sucking harder than they did in NM drafts and all of our OP friends from NM drafts being even better because they didn't need the BEXP to prop them up.

And then you have units like:

Sophia

Karla

FE9 Ena/Nasir

And I really wonder what the damn difference is.

Double Edit: Also Soul said he was thinking about making a new tier list. I gave him my opinion

And due to your lack of proper reasoning (at the time), I gave mine; that yours is worthless. If you're going to claim something is a bad idea, say more than "because I think it's stupid."

[Radiant Dragon]

Speaking of turn disparities... What would people say to an FE10 draft that uses normal penalties (+4 turns for each unit)? There would be some other details that need to be ironed out, such as free-for-chapter units (Edward in 1-P, for example), higher penalty for some actions (Tibarn assassinating Izuka, for example) and maybe banning Haar.

[Zkirsche]

First off: what the hell does turn disparity matter? Sure, it's a competition, but before that, it's just for fun. Also, Silith did finish the second one before I did (before I even started) but never got her score recorded, possibly because in the end we weren't entirely sure what it would be. Soul finished through part 3 and someone else (forget who) is on 4-3, so it isn't too unlikely that they'll finish.

Balance. Haar is a much bigger boon in hard mode than in NM, for example.

And then you have units like:

Sophia

Karla

FE9 Ena/Nasir

And I really wonder what the damn difference is.

Quit comparing it to other games. Sophia and Karla don't have Bexp (I think), so are completely different games regardless. FE9 Nasir comes in super late, and has a lot more use than FE10 Lyre or Fiona.

Meg, for example, is actually quite good in NM as the bexp gets her speed really high. In HM, however, she's just more worthless garbage. From NM to HM, a team can go from 6-7 good units to like 4-5 with the rest being decent to garbage.

[Radiant Dragon]

FE9 Nasir comes in super late, and has a lot more use than FE10 Lyre or Fiona.

No, he doesn't. You can't even reliably recruit him, since you have to beat the Black Knight. He's not getting you those turns back.

[Integrity]

and I have no idea what Integ was doing (then again Integ also doesn't play srs).

Quiiiiick justification for that RD draft - that RD one was my first draft EVER, and actually the first time I had ever tried to play any FE for turns.

[Florete]

Going back to this:

There was a 50 turn disparity between first and second place in the first HM Draft,

That's true, but it's not an accurate representation. #2, 3, and 4 were all within 20 turns of each other, and only 5 people finished.

Speaking of turn disparities... What would people say to an FE10 draft that uses normal penalties (+4 turns for each unit)? There would be some other details that need to be ironed out, such as free-for-chapter units (Edward in 1-P, for example), higher penalty for some actions (Tibarn assassinating Izuka, for example) and maybe banning Haar.

I'd support it.

Balance. Haar is a much bigger boon in hard mode than in NM, for example.

I'd disagree with that. He can wreck NM like no other but can run into Spd and durability issues in HM if you rely on him too much. And it's not like FE9 Jill/Marcia, Florina, etc. don't exist.

Quit comparing it to other games. Sophia and Karla don't have Bexp (I think), so are completely different games regardless. FE9 Nasir comes in super late, and has a lot more use than FE10 Lyre or Fiona.

What the fuck? Of course I'm going to compare it to other games. Are you serious? If there are supposedly problems with drafting in this game, you can be damn sure I'll point out the same problems in other games that don't seem to be mentioned. Sophia and Karla not having BEXP just makes them even worse than the garbage in this game. Do something about it.

Also, I personally questioned it because the levels seemed way too high, but Silith appeared to use Fiona quite well in the recent HM draft while still pulling good turn counts. You have to remember that bad units are more likely to get a booster dump than in a standard efficiency run. Astrid (with transfers, though) was a top player on my team.

And lol @ Nasir losing you likely at least 3 turns and never getting them back.

Meg, for example, is actually quite good in NM as the bexp gets her speed really high. In HM, however, she's just more worthless garbage. From NM to HM, a team can go from 6-7 good units to like 4-5 with the rest being decent to garbage.

Silith's run would disagree with that, too. She had Meg and Fiona together and apparently used them to good effect.

Edited June 14, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Paperblade]

First off: what the hell does turn disparity matter? Sure, it's a competition, but before that, it's just for fun. Also, Silith did finish the second one before I did (before I even started) but never got her score recorded, possibly because in the end we weren't entirely sure what it would be. Soul finished through part 3 and someone else (forget who) is on 4-3, so it isn't too unlikely that they'll finish.

I wasn't stating people not finishing like it was a bad thing (although if it became commonplace it would be evidence that the format is dull), I was merely stating why I only used the first one as evidence.

And turn disparity measures competitiveness. People discussing a tier list are competitive almost by definition. Why discuss a format that is less skill intensive?

That's true, but it's not an accurate representation. #2, 3, and 4 were all within 20 turns of each other, and only 5 people finished.

Obligatory "second is the first of the losers" and similar quotes. If there is a clearly overpowered strategy it's less balanced and thus less competitive. I believe the term is called "over centralizing," although "warping the format" could also work. Obviously if the problem unit/strategy in question were found, it could possibly be fixed.

Sophia

Karla

FE9 Ena/Nasir

And I really wonder what the damn difference is.

One unit per game vs. 10+% of the cast?

Also I hold the belief (apparently I have to state that it's my opinion or run the risk of looking tyrannical) that Karla should be merged with Bartre anyway since it's not like Bartre is particularly good on his own and getting a free crummy Swordmaster for the last 2 chapters probably won't break him.

I've also never played an FE6 draft because I hate the game so no comment there.

And due to your lack of proper reasoning (at the time), I gave mine; that yours is worthless. If you're going to claim something is a bad idea, say more than "because I think it's stupid."

Sorry, I didn't expect to get flamed for not writing an essay on why I thought that FE10HM is one of the less interesting formats, especially since no one who actually agrees with Soul put as much thought into it beyond "Well I like it so we should do it" (which is basically the other side of the coin of my "Well I don't like it so we shouldn't do it") until I posted my two cents.

In other words, no u

[Florete]

One unit per game vs. 10+% of the cast?

Because the ones I mentioned are really the only ones.

Do you really need me to go through and list all the terrible draftees?

And besides, 10+% of the cast? Hardly. Lyre is the only definite one. Fiona, Meg, and Astrid can all be made competent if used right. Kurthnaga probably requires specific strategies but likely falls into that category in the end.

Who else is even really a candidate? Pelleas, possibly. Oliver? Probably not Oliver, though, because he can at least use Fortify and Micaiah might not have S staves (and the player might not have enough money to buy Arms Scrolls/want to spend money on other things like forges).

So, what, 3 units? Out of 70+? Maybe a few more if you stretch it/are incompetent in general?

Even if you stretch it to 7 (~10%), that leaves one terrible unit per drafter. How awful.

Also I hold the belief (apparently I have to state that it's my opinion or run the risk of looking tyrannical) that Karla should be merged with Bartre anyway since it's not like Bartre is particularly good on his own and getting a free crummy Swordmaster for the last 2 chapters probably won't break him.

I do agree with this.

Sorry, I didn't expect to get flamed for not writing an essay on why I thought that FE10HM is one of the less interesting formats, especially since no one who actually agrees with Soul put as much thought into it beyond "Well I like it so we should do it" (which is basically the other side of the coin of my "Well I don't like it so we shouldn't do it") until I posted my two cents.

If you say something worth disagreeing with (it's not as though you said "I like the color blue"), you should expect someone to disagree with it, especially in a place like this.

For the record, I don't give a damn about Soul's idea for a HM draft tier list, I just disagree with the idea that drafting HM in this game is inherently a bad idea.

[Junkhead]

Why do you guys complain about silly things? 9[

[Paperblade]

Why do you guys complain about silly things? 9[

Because they're the only things worth complaining about.

[PKL]

Bumping this since I disagree with something.

Why is Edward below Nolan in NM drafts? Edward has a lot more chance of being able to 4 turn 1-4 than Nolan. Both are unneeded in 1-6 except for shoving sothe, something both can do. 1-7 is where theyre both promoting most likely. Both can do the same thing here. Assuming a forge for Edward and tier 2, he can ORKO the boss with a crit. Nolan can hammer him and kill him more reliably though. And Hand axes>wind edges but eddie himself shouldnt be missing any ORKOs from 1-2 range here either in NM. 1-8 they both do the same thing. Eddie with a bit less accuracy though thanks to wind edge sucking.

1-E is meh for both.

Then comes Part 3. Assuming Beastfoe Nolan and a crossbow he'll be really good in 3-6. But Eddie is also ORKOing stuff pretty reliably thanks to resolve + innate wrath and caladbolg. They both 7-8 turn the map assuming the player is competent. They perform mostly the same in 3-12, Nolan having an edge against the 2 range enemies due to Hand Axes once again...Both can do the same thing in 3-13. Kill Ike in 2-3 turns depending on if you have pass in the DB or not. Then comes part 4. None of them are gonna go to Silver due to desert so ill leave that out. Also, If Nasir isnt drafted, Edward>Nolan in endgame for what that is worth. I feel both perform mostly the same throughout the game in NM and should be slashed. :/

Also, I feel like Boyd, Mia and Nephenee should be in high tier instead of mid tier. Especially Boyd. Hes practically a mini-Titania. With celerity and hand axes, hes a ORKO machine that never lets up. His only flaw is his SPD base severely dampering his usefulness in 3-P and possibly 3-1 if you get unlucky with BEXP. Nephenee is amazing in 2-2 to avoid the lucia penalty and she can have access to P2 BEXP to make her competent right off the bat in part 3. Her performance is a bit shaky at times due to javelin MT sucking but sentinel crit bonus + crit forges are good enough for 3-8 and 3-10.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Toon Link

[MacLovin]

Hmmm.

Because Nolans durability is better over p1.

As for the Neph issue....

I guess its because picking her means no GM frontliner

(Titania, Oscar, Mia, Boyd, Gatrie),

unless you are lucky and manage to get a GM, a DB and Neph. But that's unlikely.

And 3-p and 3-1 are kinda annoying, without a frontline GM, because Ike+freebie unit can't do everything .

3-1

(Top part of map has ranged, and bottom has generals+sentinal reinforcements.)

Yeah, I kept telling myself "don't get involved the tier lists, but do I heed MY own advice.... don't burn me for this.

Edited December 24, 2011 by The Creeper

[PKL]

Neph IS a frontline GM. Perfectly capable of it.

[MacLovin]

Neph IS a frontline GM. Perfectly capable of it.

I mean as in 3-p and 3-1.

Well, it's a thin argument.

Lets wait for Soul to tell us.

[Vicious Sal]

I am browsing through, and I am against two things. Tanith and Ranulf should swap Imo, Tanith is a perfect BExp unit, promotes soon, has flight to ferry ike in her starting chapter. Desert help. Possibly wyrmslayer on dheg.

Ranulf, although good, stillf suffers from lolcatgauge, strike training, no 2 range.

I also want Soren above Nailah, since this is a Draft tier list, units get favoritism. Bexp helps soren out, he's got speed, he has wind and fire tomes, possibly forges. Flare helps his durability. He can 1 turn 3-5. He also helps out by hitting Res instead of defense.

Nailah saves turns in 1-8 and 1-E, and then she's gone. Soren has more chapters of use, and the meteor tome is helpful there. Granted, calill doesn't get it that way, but both make good use of it.

Maybe i'll add in more later.

Wait, NEaluchi up dudes, S strike in his starting chapter. 2-2 with S strike makes it lolly.

[PKL]

Agreed with Sal. Nealuchi is really good in Part 2 with Salstrike :p. And I can attest to Soren's usefulness with favoritism.

[Vicious Sal]

Agreed with Sal. Nealuchi is really good in Part 2 with Salstrike :p. And I can attest to Soren's usefulness with favoritism.

I love it when he solo's 3-8 with celerity and provoke. Or was is just celerity? And well, solo... He does the heavy lifting.

Let's see, i'll browse through this. The point is however, where does nealuchi end up, he's gone for so long...

[PKL]

Yeah its with celerity :p. Soren is also really good in 4-4 and can tank the sleep staff :o. Idk where id put nealuchi personally. He saves a bunch of penalties and his offense is really good in part 2. Though he does have availability issues and once he comes back in Part 4 his MT is mediocre.

[Vicious Sal]

Yeah its with celerity :p. Soren is also really good in 4-4 and can tank the sleep staff :o. Idk where id put nealuchi personally. He saves a bunch of penalties and his offense is really good in part 2. Though he does have availability issues and once he comes back in Part 4 his MT is mediocre.

QFT, we had the same soren actions in drafts apparently. :)

Nealuchi is like, great where you get him, and then he leaves (3-11 joining would be nice >___>) In the desert, where he porbably does best... He has 32 Atk at the end of 2-P at least. He can get four levels up if he procs str once iirc. On his first level. He can have up to... 40 Atk entering 2-2 right? 14 x str + 12 mt? But when he gets back 32 - 40 atk isn't that fantastic anymore right? Idk anymore, to long ago...