Fire Emblem: Dream of Five

[Naizaka]

Just downloaded this patch today and it confirmed my worst fears: Apart from Awakening, I suck at Fire Emblem. Either that, or early Kolbane gets off by doing a kid Gohan impression. DODGE YOU IDIOT DODGE

Only just got past ch.4 with 2 hours of gameplay, mainly because of chapter 2.

Me: Only, 2 enemies left, let's finish this off. *Kills the random mook leaving the boss* Ok, now just to- *Guile's Theme out of nowhere* wait, what? What?! *Laughs for about 3 minutes*

Proof, if it was still needed, that Guile's Theme goes with everything. Go home and be a family bard!

[reallylongname]

I've played DoF twice through now, on both routes (but remember little of the Onduris route, due to time gaps), and now I finally have things to say.

I'll start with the auguries. I can only remember two specific examples: In chapter 13A, nothing was said of the enemy tactics. The last message was especially vague. Something along the lines of doing what I've done before, that'll get me through..?I rushed the bosses within six turns and had to wait for Chester and Adrian to putter around to the chests before ending their miserable lives. Suddenly, surprise reinforcements everywhere. Chester had to dodge half a dozen cavaliers and half a dozen shamans for several turns before I could extract him from the situation. (That, and I didn't want to kill them with anyone who was level 20). The druid boss ran away when he got low on health. Not inseparable after all.

The auguries were largely unhelpful and anything gained from it could have been just as easily gained by studying the map for ten seconds. They could be rewritten to include more helpful things. We are paying a (refundable) fee of 50 gold, after all. Unless if you want to make her as useless as Renair says she is. The only helpful augury I can remember was 12A, revealing an item I previously hadn't known to exist.

I will apologize in advance if I say anything that has been changed by the new writer Eclipse. I don't follow this thread with bead-eye intensity. The writing of the hack is lopsided. You're sitting around, killing plot devices as per all Fire Emblem hacks, when you are suddenly thrust into the midst of things. I would say that the Aukema chapters aren't bad in terms of pacing. The first journal entry (or was it some other text) mentions, right off the bat, that Aukema is in the middle of a civil war. Sets the background well and compliments the following attacks by Farrell. Only nit-pick I can call off the top of my head is the time-skip after Garath is wounded by Sarka. Inserting one of those box things saying "A few days later" helps with the consistency of the hack. Not saying that everyone is an imbecilic moron who can't figure out what's going on within a line of dialogue, but there's nothing more distracting than inconsistency.

However, the exposition falls short in the earlier chapters when it comes to Onduris and Musain. Nothing of their situations is mentioned by any text that I've seen (I don't think I've been completionist though) up until the chapter split. I would've liked to know about the tyrannical usurper Guillaume and the Triumvirate behind the foolish Jinsei before clasping eyes on them. After playing both routes, the stories feel too fast-paced and limited in scope. It feels like Musain has no nobles other than Uther and Enjolras' relatives. Many of the chapter bosses, such as Narvanh and Prevalh had little to no characterization and dialogue. This is easily accomplished within the scope of a single chapter. Take Uhai of FE7 as an example. He appears in one chapter (the other one doesn't count, due to total lack of dialogue), but you understand his honor, his respect for the field of battle, and something of his heritage on the tribal plains. We don't receive a total lack of exposition (I was going to say "Denning", but Denning actually has backstory, albeit one that makes him a non-character), nor do we get a two-bit digression into how he grew up in some clan and found the Black Fang. In short, I think it'd be nice if I wasn't constantly fighting faceless foes. As for pacing, breaking the almost absolute hold of tyrants within eight chapters is a bit quick, especially compared to what was accomplished in the preceding six chapters (Pretty much, beating up some bandits then hopping the border). It isn't necessary to add more chapters, because they'd be dead weight if they had as much content as the existing eight chapters. Instead, fill every existing chapter with detail, as to give the illusion of longevity and deep-rooted histories.

Speaking of faces, I like everything about the graphics. But I'm not much of a judge on that part.

Sadly, I can't say anything about Onduris and don't want to replay it. I think I liked it much more than I liked Musain, although I felt that the exposition was a bit lacking in some respects. It is mentioned once that any swordsman can challenge Jinsei to the throne, and it doesn't sound like he was too bothered by idiots like those. Minor details of what the triumvirate does to get rid of the stream of challenges would fit in easily (A trial of some sort). In addition, I was annoyed that there was a completely uneventful time skip between 7B and 8B (Arrival in Onduris to meeting Seymour in some town). The map scene text mentions that they work as mercenaries for some time until, one day...*queue background of moving forest and blue ribbon with text*. What bothers me is how the group made no money (could have easily spent some on living expenses), and more so, the lack of reference to the time-skip's occurrence. The map scene's text was entirely redundant, because the words could have been replaced with ("After their latest scrape with Aukeman forces and the border watch of Onduris, the group hurried towards the fat and ugly village on the horizon, hoping that their legs would stop aching if they could just rest for more than a minute. Alas, they were to find no respite in a town without an arena, as annoying and stupid bandits that only give 5 EXP lurked beyond the mountains to the west.").

Finally, the writing I disliked more than the auguries, and even more than the overarching plot, was everything between the end of the chapter and the chapter title scene. The map scenes. Many are awkwardly written, as the usage of some obscure words contrasts harshly with minor grammatical errors, creating the impression of a narrator who tries to be both dramatic and intellectual, but fails at both. Given, it's pretty hard to write the map scene text (As you can tell by my mangled attempt in the paragraph above), but they would read better if they were direct. Some of their inherent flaws can be attributed to the pacing. Given that all parts of the writing are interconnected, and the fact that the storyline is also linked to the existing chapters, much of what I've seen is difficult to fix without tearing some parts out or modifying what has been written. I might say more, but I can't bear to play this hack any longer (I pity the testers), at least without pay. (Pleasure normally works as payment, but for some reason, it has been somewhat lacking).

Specific examples fresh off my Musain playthrough include the text given by the mage brothers after their defeat in 13A. They say "in the memory of the men we once were". But they were never much of anything, given that Guillaume took them off the streets and raised them in the dungeons. Better would be "in the memory of the men we could have been". One of them also says that they were "infused with power, but all it does was drive us mad with power". No need for a repetition of power. Guillaume also says "You should have stayed in capture" to Renair. I'm not sure if what the house guard says ("But the enemy has our king under capture") is quite right either. He then goes on to say "Now let's tear this bastard a new arsehole", which isn't quite right, unless if Renair's motley band is actually one person.

I'll post later, showing some screens for how my units turned out and discussing gameplay and such.

[eclipse]

First and foremost - Most of the story/plot stayed intact. This was partially due to time constraints (hello FEE3), and partially because Yours Truly is in an awkward time zone, which makes talking to others a bit more difficult (not impossible, but I'd rather not keep Astra awake to stupid o'clock because of it). It would be really, REALLY rude if I made plot tweaks without running it by everyone else first. With that out of the way. . .

Augeries - I just found where they reside in the script. It's EXTREMELY low on my priority list. If the maps change, the augeries will, which is why I don't feel like bothering with them until the maps are absolutely, positively set.

Journals - Higher up than the augeries, but I'd rather get actual chapters out first.

Map scenes - Can't find the text for them.

Now, for specifics (no, I'm not going to respond to everything, but my personal issues have multiplied by a positive integer. . .in other words, I may be a wee bit cranky):

Not saying that everyone is an imbecilic moron who can't figure out what's going on within a line of dialogue, but there's nothing more distracting than inconsistency.

I'll leave this one up to everyone else. Personally, I think this is something that should be taken care of solely by dialogue.

However, the exposition falls short in the earlier chapters when it comes to Onduris and Musain. Nothing of their situations is mentioned by any text that I've seen (I don't think I've been completionist though) up until the chapter split. I would've liked to know about the tyrannical usurper Guillaume and the Triumvirate behind the foolish Jinsei before clasping eyes on them.

Renair's group is rather busy in the first arc, and thus, has little time to partake in foreign affairs. Not like people would give her the time of day after a certain point in the first arc anyway!

Many of the chapter bosses, such as Narvanh and Prevalh had little to no characterization and dialogue. This is easily accomplished within the scope of a single chapter.

How much personality did the boss of Chapter 14 of FE7 have? Or how 'bout Maxime? Or the majority of the bosses in Lyn's tale? Not every boss needs exposition. This holds true in every single FE game I've played. What I did to the bosses here? We'll find out soon enough~!

As for pacing, breaking the almost absolute hold of tyrants within eight chapters is a bit quick, especially compared to what was accomplished in the preceding six chapters (Pretty much, beating up some bandits then hopping the border). It isn't necessary to add more chapters, because they'd be dead weight if they had as much content as the existing eight chapters. Instead, fill every existing chapter with detail, as to give the illusion of longevity and deep-rooted histories.

FE maps do not happen one day after another, and the same holds true here. In both arcs, you get someone who's familiar with both the land and the echelons of society that you're dealing with. What gets changed (if anything) is partially up to everyone else (no, I don't go adding plot points on my own, that's bad writing; I am willing to explain what already exists, but not to the point where going through the dialogue takes longer than the chapter itself, because FE isn't a visual novel), and whether or not it fits the context of the chapter.

the next paragraph

The sense I am getting from you is that you like to be told a lot of things. I don't agree with that particular style. I wouldn't mind expounding a bit, but not to the level of detail that I think would satisfy you. This is a game, not a literary work. If you're looking for a lot of storytelling, may I suggest the Legend of Heroes series for the PSP?

I might say more, but I can't bear to play this hack any longer (I pity the testers), at least without pay. (Pleasure normally works as payment, but for some reason, it has been somewhat lacking).

. . .okay. I've been trying to be civil up until now, but this does it. It's one thing to get on the case of the writing (which is something that I can do something about). I don't take kindly to a blanket insult of everyone else involved with the hack specifically because the writing is, by your own words, so very full of things to criticize. If you want to discuss gameplay and whatnot, go for it. I will attempt to extract what useful objective statements I can.

[Wayward Winds]

...Good luck answering that 'little' lot, Astra (says the nuisance who gave a chapter by chapter feedback post monster).

But... weren't there only two chests on 13A? Top and bottom left, directly above and below Katrina? But as a rule, rushing for the boss and trying to pick up all of the chests/villages/whatever rarely ends well in Fire Emblem, at least, not on first runs. Later runs, when you know what's coming on the other hand... Another general rule is to always leave some form of guard on the merchant tent, because FE (official and hacked alike) love popping reinforcements up there. In this case, said guard could have easily saved Chester and Adrian's butts (but maybe you did that anyway?). In short, it's always a good idea to expect these things. In my case I ferry Chester around with Flyer escort, two of them if I'm particularly concerned about possible reinforcements.

The only other thing I'm going to respond to (because I'm well aware this isn't my job, and I'm walking on thin ice as it is) is the short length of Musain/Onduris. That's actually normal for FE. FE1/Shadow Dragon has Marth conquer whole countries in two or three battles (I'm in no way exaggerating), FE6 takes about 6 or 7 chapters per country or less, and as for FE8... how much did Eirika do in chapters 9 to 14 again? Not to mention Ephraim dismantling most of Grado's military in the same period. So FE in general does this, not just Do5. Although I'll admit that Musain had a heck of a lot going on for those 9/10 chapters.

...Lastly, apparently Eclipse has heavily adjusted the script (but not the plot), so we'll see what happens there.

Right, now I'm off to cherrytap the bosses of Ch. 13A to see what happens. (And wait for Astra/Thor/Eclipse/someone else to shout at me...)

EDIT: ...And Eclipse beats me in updating speed again...

Edited August 18, 2013 by Wayward Winds

[AstraLunaSol]

I've played DoF twice through now, on both routes (but remember little of the Onduris route, due to time gaps), and now I finally have things to say.

I'll start with the auguries. I can only remember two specific examples: In chapter 13A, nothing was said of the enemy tactics. The last message was especially vague. Something along the lines of doing what I've done before, that'll get me through..?I rushed the bosses within six turns and had to wait for Chester and Adrian to putter around to the chests before ending their miserable lives. Suddenly, surprise reinforcements everywhere. Chester had to dodge half a dozen cavaliers and half a dozen shamans for several turns before I could extract him from the situation. (That, and I didn't want to kill them with anyone who was level 20). The druid boss ran away when he got low on health. Not inseparable after all.

I intend to fix auguries later, as I also think they aren't as useful as they could be, but i'm obviously not going to reveal reinforcement times or anything like that. I don't remember 13A's aug. Also, since you finished the chapter in 6 turns, what did you expect? I intended the map to take longer. (20ish turns actually) Not my problem with the boss AI, that AI code is supposed to stay in place but GBA AI is ass.

The auguries were largely unhelpful and anything gained from it could have been just as easily gained by studying the map for ten seconds. They could be rewritten to include more helpful things. We are paying a (refundable) fee of 50 gold, after all. Unless if you want to make her as useless as Renair says she is. The only helpful augury I can remember was 12A, revealing an item I previously hadn't known to exist.

Good for you, for others it may have been more useful. Also, when you look at base FE7 augury, it actually just as useless if you study the map for a couple seconds as well.

I will apologize in advance if I say anything that has been changed by the new writer Eclipse. I don't follow this thread with bead-eye intensity. The writing of the hack is lopsided. You're sitting around, killing plot devices as per all Fire Emblem hacks, when you are suddenly thrust into the midst of things. I would say that the Aukema chapters aren't bad in terms of pacing. The first journal entry (or was it some other text) mentions, right off the bat, that Aukema is in the middle of a civil war. Sets the background well and compliments the following attacks by Farrell. Only nit-pick I can call off the top of my head is the time-skip after Garath is wounded by Sarka. Inserting one of those box things saying "A few days later" helps with the consistency of the hack. Not saying that everyone is an imbecilic moron who can't figure out what's going on within a line of dialogue, but there's nothing more distracting than inconsistency.

Depends on what eclipse wants to do, I personally think that the reader can probably infer that the chapter is several days later. The journals have dates on them as well.

However, the exposition falls short in the earlier chapters when it comes to Onduris and Musain. Nothing of their situations is mentioned by any text that I've seen (I don't think I've been completionist though) up until the chapter split. I would've liked to know about the tyrannical usurper Guillaume and the Triumvirate behind the foolish Jinsei before clasping eyes on them. After playing both routes, the stories feel too fast-paced and limited in scope. It feels like Musain has no nobles other than Uther and Enjolras' relatives. Many of the chapter bosses, such as Narvanh and Prevalh had little to no characterization and dialogue. This is easily accomplished within the scope of a single chapter. Take Uhai of FE7 as an example. He appears in one chapter (the other one doesn't count, due to total lack of dialogue), but you understand his honor, his respect for the field of battle, and something of his heritage on the tribal plains. We don't receive a total lack of exposition (I was going to say "Denning", but Denning actually has backstory, albeit one that makes him a non-character), nor do we get a two-bit digression into how he grew up in some clan and found the Black Fang. In short, I think it'd be nice if I wasn't constantly fighting faceless foes. As for pacing, breaking the almost absolute hold of tyrants within eight chapters is a bit quick, especially compared to what was accomplished in the preceding six chapters (Pretty much, beating up some bandits then hopping the border). It isn't necessary to add more chapters, because they'd be dead weight if they had as much content as the existing eight chapters. Instead, fill every existing chapter with detail, as to give the illusion of longevity and deep-rooted histories.

Insert Eclipse's replies here.

Sadly, I can't say anything about Onduris and don't want to replay it. I think I liked it much more than I liked Musain, although I felt that the exposition was a bit lacking in some respects. It is mentioned once that any swordsman can challenge Jinsei to the throne, and it doesn't sound like he was too bothered by idiots like those. Minor details of what the triumvirate does to get rid of the stream of challenges would fit in easily (A trial of some sort). In addition, I was annoyed that there was a completely uneventful time skip between 7B and 8B (Arrival in Onduris to meeting Seymour in some town). The map scene text mentions that they work as mercenaries for some time until, one day...*queue background of moving forest and blue ribbon with text*. What bothers me is how the group made no money (could have easily spent some on living expenses), and more so, the lack of reference to the time-skip's occurrence. The map scene's text was entirely redundant, because the words could have been replaced with ("After their latest scrape with Aukeman forces and the border watch of Onduris, the group hurried towards the fat and ugly village on the horizon, hoping that their legs would stop aching if they could just rest for more than a minute. Alas, they were to find no respite in a town without an arena, as annoying and stupid bandits that only give 5 EXP lurked beyond the mountains to the west.").

Insert Eclipse's replies here.

ps. you're asking for a lot of spoonfeeding in terms of dialogue, this hack's style isn't like that at all. You can infer many things from what we give you.

Finally, the writing I disliked more than the auguries, and even more than the overarching plot, was everything between the end of the chapter and the chapter title scene. The map scenes. Many are awkwardly written, as the usage of some obscure words contrasts harshly with minor grammatical errors, creating the impression of a narrator who tries to be both dramatic and intellectual, but fails at both. Given, it's pretty hard to write the map scene text (As you can tell by my mangled attempt in the paragraph above), but they would read better if they were direct. Some of their inherent flaws can be attributed to the pacing. Given that all parts of the writing are interconnected, and the fact that the storyline is also linked to the existing chapters, much of what I've seen is difficult to fix without tearing some parts out or modifying what has been written. I might say more, but I can't bear to play this hack any longer (I pity the testers), at least without pay. (Pleasure normally works as payment, but for some reason, it has been somewhat lacking).

You do know a bard is saying those, right?

No need to pity the testers, as they like the hack. Specifically a playtester has probably gone through the hack 20+ times to test out mechanics I've worked out in the gameplay. Even the normal betatesters I've picked out of this topic and this forum have liked it.

I'll post later, showing some screens for how my units turned out and discussing gameplay and such.

ok

Replies in bold.

i'll reply to other things later

Edited August 18, 2013 by AstraLunaSol

[ShinRPGamer]

Okay so I'm having issues with trying to patch it this being my first time using NUPS.

I'm putting the clean FE7 ROM where it says file to patch but where your supposed to put the UPS file i'm getting nothing. Can anyone tell me what i'm doing wrong and how to properly implement the patch?

[AstraLunaSol]

Did you extract the contents with winRAR?

[reallylongname]

Before I begin, I would like to extend an apology to everyone who was offended by what I said earlier. I only offered criticisms of the hack in my earlier post. You guys have worked on this project on and off for years now, and the progress shows. Dream of Five stands head and shoulders above many other hacks, some of which are just as incomplete, but less ambitious in scope and still in infancy, and others being full-fledged, with dry dialogue and unoriginal portraits. The complexity, the feel, the...everything. There's a reason why Dream of Five is one of the most viewed threads in the Rom hacking forum: It's damn good, even when incomplete. I have only the deepest respect for anyone capable of creating a hack like Dream of Five.

...Good luck answering that 'little' lot, Astra (says the nuisance who gave a chapter by chapter feedback post monster).

But... weren't there only two chests on 13A? Top and bottom left, directly above and below Katrina? But as a rule, rushing for the boss and trying to pick up all of the chests/villages/whatever rarely ends well in Fire Emblem, at least, not on first runs. Later runs, when you know what's coming on the other hand... Another general rule is to always leave some form of guard on the merchant tent, because FE (official and hacked alike) love popping reinforcements up there. In this case, said guard could have easily saved Chester and Adrian's butts (but maybe you did that anyway?). In short, it's always a good idea to expect these things. In my case I ferry Chester around with Flyer escort, two of them if I'm particularly concerned about possible reinforcements.

The only other thing I'm going to respond to (because I'm well aware this isn't my job, and I'm walking on thin ice as it is) is the short length of Musain/Onduris. That's actually normal for FE. FE1/Shadow Dragon has Marth conquer whole countries in two or three battles (I'm in no way exaggerating), FE6 takes about 6 or 7 chapters per country or less, and as for FE8... how much did Eirika do in chapters 9 to 14 again? Not to mention Ephraim dismantling most of Grado's military in the same period. So FE in general does this, not just Do5. Although I'll admit that Musain had a heck of a lot going on for those 9/10 chapters.
...Lastly, apparently Eclipse has heavily adjusted the script (but not the plot), so we'll see what happens there.

Four turns, maybe, to get to them both, but I had to get rid of the enemies in the way. The chapter had a lot of enemy chokepoints, and whenever you killed someone, another annoying Knight or Steel Sword Cavalier stepped into his place. Then the middle turned into an explosive anthill.

I can't take FE8 seriously after playing GhebFE. I guess I shouldn't talk about how FE games and hacks are so fast-paced then, because that's the way FE works. Not to mention every chapter brings in enough reinforcements to constitute some actual small armies. Hooray for healing items and healing staves.

First and foremost - Most of the story/plot stayed intact. This was partially due to time constraints (hello FEE3), and partially because Yours Truly is in an awkward time zone, which makes talking to others a bit more difficult (not impossible, but I'd rather not keep Astra awake to stupid o'clock because of it). It would be really, REALLY rude if I made plot tweaks without running it by everyone else first. With that out of the way. . .
Augeries - I just found where they reside in the script. It's EXTREMELY low on my priority list. If the maps change, the augeries will, which is why I don't feel like bothering with them until the maps are absolutely, positively set.
Journals - Higher up than the augeries, but I'd rather get actual chapters out first.
Map scenes - Can't find the text for them.
Now, for specifics (no, I'm not going to respond to everything, but my personal issues have multiplied by a positive integer. . .in other words, I may be a wee bit cranky):
Renair's group is rather busy in the first arc, and thus, has little time to partake in foreign affairs. Not like people would give her the time of day after a certain point in the first arc anyway!
How much personality did the boss of Chapter 14 of FE7 have? Or how 'bout Maxime? Or the majority of the bosses in Lyn's tale? Not every boss needs exposition. This holds true in every single FE game I've played. What I did to the bosses here? We'll find out soon enough~!
FE maps do not happen one day after another, and the same holds true here. In both arcs, you get someone who's familiar with both the land and the echelons of society that you're dealing with. What gets changed (if anything) is partially up to everyone else (no, I don't go adding plot points on my own, that's bad writing; I am willing to explain what already exists, but not to the point where going through the dialogue takes longer than the chapter itself, because FE isn't a visual novel), and whether or not it fits the context of the chapter.
The sense I am getting from you is that you like to be told a lot of things. I don't agree with that particular style. I wouldn't mind expounding a bit, but not to the level of detail that I think would satisfy you. This is a game, not a literary work. If you're looking for a lot of storytelling, may I suggest the Legend of Heroes series for the PSP?
. . .okay. I've been trying to be civil up until now, but this does it. It's one thing to get on the case of the writing (which is something that I can do something about). I don't take kindly to a blanket insult of everyone else involved with the hack specifically because the writing is, by your own words, so very full of things to criticize. If you want to discuss gameplay and whatnot, go for it. I will attempt to extract what useful objective statements I can.

Minor tweaks are minor. Hacks take a long time to make, especially because revisions happen. Oh, and today is FEE3...I think.

Auguries are rarely helpful, ever. I guess the most helpful thing they could say is "Expect this battle to take a long time". I can understand where your priorities lie (Not with malleable writing dependent on other factors that you don't control).

Funny thing, because when you break into people's houses in Chapter 5, weapon steeped with blood (unless if you wiped it on the doormat), the inhabitants say things like "Thieves eyes are good for night fog!", which I assume you've worked out. I'm ashamed I didn't notice things like this, which are actually worthy of correction.

Touche. I guess I can't argue that point. What I'm trying to get across is that I like to see Lord of the Rings-type setups: Lots of superficial minor lords who don't do jack squat except get mowed by the protagonists. (Not that this really happened in LotR. Mostly happened in the lore, recounted by the Silmarillion) I doubt Do5 will ever have anything like that. Just bandits, some major enemy lords. Good stuff. Not to mention that LotR-esque rarely works, since it often seems superficially complex and builds so much detail that the audience loses interest, finding themselves incapable of immersing themselves in the story.

The cutscenes, as I've read them, take maybe two to three minutes. The battles, in comparison, take far longer. I think there's enough time to squeeze in more dialogue (although FE games tend to keep the talking short and the happenings quick, as everything happens on the world map, then on the battlefield).The principal reason why I am arguing for "more writing, etc" is for immersion. Sure, it's a tale being told by a bard, but I think that the content as is probably constitutes enough for three bard's tales. Frankly, at this point, after reading the counterarguments, I'm not even remotely interested in advocating anything anymore. I probably need a better sense of judgment.

I meant no offense when I said that I wasn't enjoying the hack. I felt that I've been playing Fire Emblem games wrong this whole time, relying on high growths and reckless one-man killing machines (namely, I think I've overplayed The Constellation of TLP. Every one of my characters is level 30 and has maxed stats). This hack forces the player to move more slowly and cautiously, else they pay the price. Hell, I should probably thank you guys for reorienting my standards.

Things that I can't quote properly. Goddamn, I'm bad at forums.

I seem to be implying that I like to be spoonfed information like a dribbling supplicant. I assure you that this is not the case. The political and social situations of the three nations visited thus far are easily visible via the actions of its inhabitants, with the culture of Vishara no less familiar through Arcus and some houses in Chapter 4. The past of the world of Do5 is equally as evident, with an event similar to The Scouring taking place. Other in-game events were just as obvious through the existing writing, and no real confusion remained. The highest form of writing is that which leaves the reader little to work with, but illustrates a vast world of wonder. A world, when meticulously described, loses its charm of mystery, and leaves no imagination to the reader. When I was writing my previous post, finding legitimate criticisms was as difficult as finding the Master Seal. In the end, I could do neither. Perhaps my grievances lie with the seeming lack of overarching antagonist (which isn't a problem at all).

It is an error on my part to tell you that the existing auguries should be changed to reflect that reinforcements will appear at all, since it seems to be an FE fundamental to leave guards for your tent at all times. Much of what I say is done in inexperience, for I've never hacked and have only ever played a few hacks. Thus, my input is less valuable.

[ShinRPGamer]

Did you extract the contents with winRAR?

Yes I figured out what was wrong with it playing it right now.

[eclipse]

I'm only going to quote the one part that I feel like responding to.

Frankly, at this point, after reading the counterarguments, I'm not even remotely interested in advocating anything anymore. I probably need a better sense of judgment.

What you need to do is drop the sense of superiority. You're one person, and you've managed to insult the previous writer, and everyone else on this project indirectly. I can't take your apology seriously, because you go RIGHT BACK to what ticked me off earlier. In other words, your actions do not live up to your words, and I have no time for those whose intent and speech are inconsistent. If the writing is such a huge issue, you're free to play other things. I don't think anyone's forcing you to play this hack.

[Parrhesia]

I can't take FE8 seriously after playing GhebFE.

I can't take your opinions seriously after learning you've played GhebFE.

[NICKT™]

I'm only going to quote the one part that I feel like responding to.

What you need to do is drop the sense of superiority. You're one person, and you've managed to insult the previous writer, and everyone else on this project indirectly. I can't take your apology seriously, because you go RIGHT BACK to what ticked me off earlier. In other words, your actions do not live up to your words, and I have no time for those whose intent and speech are inconsistent. If the writing is such a huge issue, you're free to play other things. I don't think anyone's forcing you to play this hack.

I'm not really going to buy into this whole argument thing, but as a writer, personally, I'd strive to deliver the best I could. Knowing that I cannot please everyone and there will be some who won't like it shouldn't incur you to then submit to sub-par writing and then shrugging the criticisms of others and suggest they go elsewhere. That's the one thing I dislike about the hacking communities in general, the lack of professionalism and the idea that just because this is a hack and not an official game that you shouldn't try and put in your all and your best foot forward.

EDIT:

Also, as an artist of any sort, you never want to turn people away, that is never your goal. Ever. You should accept when people turn away of their own accord, but it should never be something you want of them or suggest that they go about themselves. Just because there are other hacks out there shouldn't excuse you and even though he's not being forced doesn't mean he can't offer any words or opinions. The world is full of opinions on everything and to let one insult you on something you created is personally, a joke. To be insulted by any means because someone didn't like what you created is piss poor.

Edited August 19, 2013 by NICKT™

[Ansem]

If her writing was as bad as the earlier lolcriticism implied it to be, there would be more people objecting to it. Based on this, one can conclude that the majority of the people who have played this hack is content with it. Why should Eclipse change her style to satisfy two or three people? Let us say she were to do so, DoF could potentially lose more fans than it would gain.

EDIT:

Not all criticism is helpful. The user was rude, and spent most of his post targetting things he did not like rather than suggest ways to improve the writing/things he would have preffered.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Bacteriophage

[Thor Odinson]

>professionalism

Dude we're not even being paid to do this

Talk professionalism when we can pay our bills off of DoF

This is something we're doing on our free time because we want to and a number of other people happen to like, if we can't please everyone, so be it

[AstraLunaSol]

there's also the fact that the public hasn't really seen eclipse's writing in the hack

fee3 will be the first time you really see it, so

[Wayward Winds]

Agreed on the Eclipse writing business – everything currently in the public patch is Furetchen’s script (as far as I know). But I'm not getting involved in this... feedback dispute, it's none of my business how Eclipse and Astra deal with it. (Just remember, you can never please everyone.)

I do however have my own observations about the plot presentation style. Astra, Eclipse and everyone else who actually works on this hack, this is not a diatribe on how I think it should be done, at least, it isn't intended to be. I'm trying to be supportive here.

Do5's story is done in a fashion that means you need at least two playthroughs per route to pick up every detail, or rather, to grasp the true significance of these references/events.

This does, when you think about it, make sense. The impression I get, particularly now I'm running through the hack again, is that different viewpoints are in play. The story, at least as far as the framing device goes, is being related by the bard. As Astra pointed out, he (or she) narrates the world map events. But, unless we want to end up reading a book that breaks off every other paragraph to describe environmental occurences such as 'The wind shifted, a fell breeze from the north bringing promises of winter's famine and ice', we can't keep listening to the bard all day. And I'm sure that while the bard would be embellishing the narrative, it isn't feasible to follow his/her words the whole way through; e.g...

(Intro to Ch. 6Ax)

...But this fortress was neither empty or safe refuge. In fact, anything but.

"What in Hel's name?" Renair spluttered, looking on at the scene in bafflement. "There's a pitched battle being fought here!"

Indeed there was. Up on the second floor, men in pale armour quite different from Aukema's own clashed with a pitifully small band of fighters. The knight in black armour; a whirlwind of axes to all who came near. The vaguely effeminate looking, silver haired mage flinging spell upon spell at the knights struggling to get near. And the two horse riders garbed in green and red armour, darting hither and thither sinking blades into any exposed flesh that presented itself.

Renair's weary eyes scanned the combatants, analysing strengths and weaknesses, looking for identifying marks or emblems, her mind trying to parse this sparse information into a working decision of who - if anyone - to support.

...Garath had other ways of dealing with the situation.

"Right," the burly sergeant muttered, removing himself from the shadows. "Simple way to solve this." He raised his voice.

"OY, YOU LOT! WHO WANTS TO BE MY FRIEND?!"

...You could feel the whole battle just grind to a halt there and then. Well, nearly. The cavaliers up top took the opportunity to dispatch another foe each. But as for everyone else, stunned silence were the watchwords...

And then one of the pale armoured soldiers turned and chucked a hasty javelin his way, and the battle was back on.

"That one... just tossed a spear at you." Renair helpfully pointed out, never mind the broken pole now lying at Garath's feet.

"Right," Garath growled, stepping back and readying his axe, "So not only is he hostile, but..."

...Another javelin soared past them.

"...he's got shit-all aim too!" the seargent finished, grasping his hurlbat and lobbing it down the corridor at the advancing soldiers. "Now get behind me!"

...Whew, got a bit carried away there! Clearly though, we can't listen to the bard all the way through, we need other viewpoints. And so, the adoption of the standard FE viewpoint once we're actually in the chapter proper, which is where further complications arise. Namely, that everything we hear is in the form of character dialogue. And there are few situations where characters can talk about the setting, local politics or cultures without it coming across as saying it for our benefit. About the only one I can think of is when Renair meets a local (Seymour, Enjolras or Arcus) and is told about the local situation. This assuming she cares, which I don't think she does when it comes to Onduris - although that could be because she knows Seymour isn't going to give a straight, unbiased, un-overly florid answer. Even here, it would be alarmingly easy to misjudge how much exposition to give; too much is just going to bore people and again make it clear that the whole thing is being staged for our benefit.

Now, you could argue that such details could be slotted in elsewhere, but the most that could probably be justified would be passing references. For example, the Darkwrights of Ch. 2 make extensive references to Farrel, but they don't explain things. And why should they? Everyone present was well aware of the situation, they have no need to spout it to each other. And short of introducing a contrived scene such as a new Darkwright recruit - which would seem just a little jarring story wise - there's little that could be done about it. As for Renair and company, they can't discuss it unless they know it and are trying to puzzle out the details. That's dangerously close to outright speculation, and hardly a method to convey actual facts - it would however be good for getting the player thinking.

For another example; Ch. 6Ax opens with...

...a confrontation. Enjolras, Marius and Feuilly are facing down Guillaume, the mad twins and the boss of the chapter. Not once are we told who these people happen to be - although villains they clearly are - and only on later playthroughs will you recognise them. That said, Guillaume clearly acts the role of evil ruler, and we get the gist of things. But again, going into detail for the player's benefit is just going to mean breaking character. A name drop maybe, but anything more will just cause storytelling problems. Remember, these characters know each other, what they've done etc. They have no need to go repeating this stuff in detail.

There is a method to get round this, one that many people seem to forget, but I'll cover that last.

Back to providing depth of setting. This runs into the same issues as politics; how to insert them into dialogue? Perhaps the bard could pop up from time to time with specialist text boxes...

(Ch. 4 and Hope Village)

Renair: "Finally, Hope is just up ahead."

Garath: "Well named. It seems to be nearly untouched."

Renair: "Ser Ganter was a former knight in the army, but he retired and now looks over this village. I shouldn't think he'd let any threats approach."

Text box, representing the Bard: Hope village was peaceful, it was true. Deep within Aukema, isolated from the borders and the troubles rife outside, its villagers had no fears of invasion spoiling their farmland. Food was plenty, rich forests and fish filled streams reliable sources to supplement fertile fields. Those same forests and streams often echoed with the laughter of children playing the adventurer, or perhaps the warrior seeking to conquer a forest land. And all about, patrols from the local militia kept the peace intact... and the children occupied.

But beneath the gentle facade, things weren't nearly as kind. The villagers were not privy to matters brewing in the capital, nor were they aware of the dire purpose of that frequently visiting noble with the stern face. And while Ser Ganter was a capable defender to be sure, he was all too easily manipulated and pointed at the wrong target. And now, his target was Renair...

Kolbane: "Are you all right Sergeant?"

...Notice how the plot came to a screeching halt there? If the Bard starts trying that one, we can forget about Do5 having a nice, well flowing script. (That's pretty much my only gripe about A Sacred Dawn DX - it breaks from the conversation to give you the player a summary of each new character.)

So, how do you flesh out the background if you can't plonk it into the main narrative? Simple, houses and Support conversations. It's often used in Fire Emblem, but tends to be a little overlooked.

Houses; perfectly placed to provide little snippets of information on local politics or culture. Flavour text, always worth checking. There's actually a fair bit of it throughout Do5 already, but LTC players are likely to just pass it by. Ch. 4, for example, has houses dedicated to every country but 'Svanhild'.

Support conversations on the other hand are possible breeding grounds for flavour text on culture; say if Juan, Arcus or Bellona discuss their home of Vishara. For examples, people from a desert could talk about landscape (eg, gripe about all the sand and the difficulty of finding water - perhaps they follow circling birds to find still damp water holes, or watch where circling vultures descend to find fresh dead carrion for salting purposes), they could discuss strange rituals or superstitions, or give details on the barter system and how you can't trust traders unless you have them at spearpoint for the whole bargaining process.

Seeing as most of the Supports are unfinished at the moment, whether they'll try this or not is unclear, but it's always an option to add some depth - for those that go through the effort of actually unlocking them.

Lastly, the possibility of 'bonus scenes', non Support related 'talk' conversations that pop up in the relevant chapters and dispense a little more situational information. For example, Renair being able to talk to Melissa in Ch. 12A to learn some further details about Uther, Fleur and Musain nobility in general (doesn't happen, but I'm offering it as an example of other ways of giving background information). If memory serves, Decay of the Fangs tried this one quite a bit to flesh out its characters.

Anyway, enough faux-intellectual drivel from me. To recap; changing the main script to make it easier for first runthrough players to pick up everything is likely to do nothing but break the flow of the script and have characters talk out of... character. Houses, Supports and optional 'Talk' events are the only options I can see, and even then they shouldn't reveal every little plot device. We are (supposedly) intelligent beings after all! (Plus I like only realising the whole picture on later playthroughs!)

[eclipse]

SOMEONE got a hold of the DoF video before it came out. . .

The writing in Chapter 15 is more-or-less mine, so fire away! I got to the earlier chapters, but it wasn't shown in the video. I can see a couple of things that need to be reworded, but that's for later. Thank you everyone~!

[Shugey]

So far the writing seems smoother, and I look forward to edits to older chapters.

Also, is transporter Karina going to force a new file again?

[AstraLunaSol]

Yeah, nothing I can really do, sorry.

Unless someone finds the value to change her class, but either way older chapters will have additional scenes and talk conversations. I will also be giving the player more weapons and such.

[Crimson Red]

>professionalism

Dude we're not even being paid to do this

Talk professionalism when we can pay our bills off of DoF

This is something we're doing on our free time because we want to and a number of other people happen to like, if we can't please everyone, so be it

and this

f her writing was as bad as the earlier lolcriticism implied it to be, there would be more people objecting to it. Based on this, one can conclude that the majority of the people who have played this hack is content with it. Why should Eclipse change her style to satisfy two or three people? Let us say she were to do so, DoF could potentially lose more fans than it would gain.

EDIT:

Not all criticism is helpful. The user was rude, and spent most of his post targetting things he did not like rather than suggest ways to improve the writing/things he would have preffered.

#SupportThatNotion

people must always use their own judgment in what to or not to do just blindly listening to what other people say will only lead you on a chaotic path that takes you anywhere but forward

[APlusle]

I downloaded this last night, and started playing it. It's a little harder than what I've played before, but I like it. Good job man.

[deranger]

FEE3 video got me re-into this hack (haven't played since v3). So as moot as my 3 chapters into v4 comments are, I'll give them. I like the decreased difficulty. A lot. It's manageable now (though savestates, because as good as it is, don't really want to restart every time 11spd mercs ambush spawn). I can now split troops up to go accomplish different goals, rather than grouping everyone as to have enough fire power to take down one or two enemies a turn.

Sorry if these questions have been asked (and from 3 posts above seems to address some of it), this is a rather long thread: are v4 saves compatable with whatever's coming out next, when approx will it be released, and what will it include? Also, is the poll still relevant?

This strength is normal, right?

Also, seymore's lance animation seems to involve the lance going through him. You could fix it by spinning the lance around so it's in front of him before he attacks, or have him twist the other way before attacking, keeping the lance behind him. I'd be willing to do it, if you're interested.

Edited August 20, 2013 by deranger

[AstraLunaSol]

i suppose the poll is still relevant

and that renair isn't normal

[Wayward Winds]

So far the writing seems smoother, and I look forward to edits to older chapters.Also, is transporter Karina going to force a new file again?

Yeah, nothing I can really do, sorry.Unless someone finds the value to change her class, but either way older chapters will have additional scenes and talk conversations. I will also be giving the player more weapons and such.

Oh dear, my Super Seren's doomed to be consigned to the void anyway? Pity. (I figured out why she was such a war winner for me; at Lv. 20+3 she was RNG blessed to the point of being 2/3 points above every average - except Res. She's two points behind for that.) Oh well, I was planning to play through with the Eclipse's revised script/Astra's revised gameplay anyway.

Stolypin and his weird EXP gains; how about handwaving it in the story? Maybe, for all his enthusiasm, he's a bit reckless and secretly a little arrogant as well. He defeats an enemy, but he doesn't learn from the experience, doesn't bother commiting to memory how he defeated them (other than it involved chucking bl**dy big fireballs, which he does anyway).

...

*Snigger*. Who's up for a great big Garath dressing down session? As Stolypin listens and tries to stifle a few yawns? (But granted, that might be completely against his character. I've only got a couple of paragraphs in Ch. 14A and a face to work from, that's rarely enough to properly discern a personality). Anyway, just suggesting alternatives to the obvious text box, no need to actually act on my bad ideas.

I can't give more FEE3 feedback for at least another twenty odd hours (seeing as my main data allowance chose an oh-so-convenient-time to run out and I can't access Youtube), but then after that last monster you probably need a break from me cluttering the thread up. I'd almost be surprised if you weren't just skipping over them by now...

Edited August 20, 2013 by Wayward Winds

[NobodiePichu]

I still demand a pompadour Driscan astra. doesnt have to be yugi-oh style but a pompadour Driscan needs to happen.