Death

[Geriba]

1) The only conceivable thing I can imagine is nothingness. My unfunctioning brain could no longer process or retain data, and my consciousness would deteriorate with it.

2) Because of death there is natural selection, and being a highly evolved organism, I would say I definitely have benefited from the existence of death. In that sense it is a good thing. It is the price we all must pay for our brief time alive, and I'd rather be alive than have nothing.

3) Because I live in a first world country, I am guessing I will die from an incurable medical affliction, or an act of negligence. I will also probably have the luxury of optionally ending my life prematurely if I were somehow debilitated and/or suffering.

Wow. "Benefitted from death"? "Price we all must pay"? You do realize that, as an atheist, the world is nothing but a cluster of random forces without care or concern, right? The universe doesn't owe you anything, and you don't owe anything to the universe. More importantly, you cease to be. No amount of evolutionary retrospection or reductionist apologetics is going to change that.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Someone didn't read my post correctly! As it was one of a mere 3, your generalization is most definitely targeting it and is also inaccurate.

Yeah, and my post fucking said that too, so epic generalization is epic.

Phoenix is right. None of us can even begin to comprehend non-existence. The best we have are empty metaphors like "sleep" and "being at peace."

I disagree. I think I can comprehend non-existence. It's part of why I'm so afraid of it. I don't refer to it as sleep, or being at peace, I refer to it as not existing. Just because it is something we have not (and by nature CANNOT) experience(d), doesn't mean it is something we cannot comprehend. If I didn't understand it to some degree, I wouldn't be afraid.

Wow. "Benefitted from death"? "Price we all must pay"? You do realize that, as an atheist, the world is nothing but a cluster of random forces without care or concern, right? The universe doesn't owe you anything, and you don't owe anything to the universe. More importantly, you cease to be. No amount of evolutionary retrospection or reductionist apologetics is going to change that.

Except he has benefited from death. If it weren't for death, he would never have existed in the first place. And fuck, "price we all must pay" is just a cliched metaphor for the inherent results of something, and one that applies here. Nothing in his post even fucking implied that the universe owed him anything, or that he owes the universe anything.

[Celice]

Phoenix is right. None of us can even begin to comprehend non-existence. The best we have are empty metaphors like "sleep" and "being at peace."

Most people can when they mean 'nothing.' But no one really thinks of it in terms of absolute absence, where even the definition is unwound. When most people use 'nothing,' they mean a substance still. They're calling such void as a quality, and giving it something. So it's not really 'nothing' in terms of non-existence.

Regardless, we can note and understand the concept of complete, whole, absolute absence. Most western language isn't geared towards dealing with non-subject. You're probably getting hung up on that part mostly :/

[Meteor]

Wow. "Benefitted from death"?

"Price we all must pay"?

Had everything, ever, lived forever, I would not exist as I do now. I consider existence to be a benefit, so yeah.

Question #2 asked whether death was good or bad. I was merely pointing out that it's more of a cost (neutral) rather than a reward (good) or penalty (bad).

[Kay]

1. I used to think that nothing happened after you died, and you just ceased to be. But now, I have more trouble believing that. It just seems too wasteful.

2. Death just is. It doesn't matter if it's good or bad. I don't think there's any point in being afraid of death itself. I'll die whether or not I'm scared of it, so I might as well not be scared. I'm scared of some things that result in death, and I'm scared of dying before I've done certain things, but I'm not particularly scared of death itself.

3. I have no idea how I'll die. I'd prefer to die in a way that there was some purpose to, but in 21st century America, that seems less likely. In a lot of other times or places, I'd probably be executed or murdered for expressing some taboo opinion.

[Aleph]

Yeah, and my post fucking said that too, so epic generalization is epic.

It appears I miscounted though, apparently there was a whole five (!) posts he had to sort through.

Not that it matters; everything is meaningless and we're all going to die~

[eclipse]

So there's some arbitrary threshold where the pain gets to a point where life is no longer worth living? You can see why I'm skeptical of people like you appreciating life.

You won't understand until you get there, and once you do, you may not be rational enough to make the right choice.

[Geriba]

You're all very funny. We in the philosophy world would call you all "reductionists," aka people who try to understand complicated moral/existential issues by atomizing everything down to the lowest common denominator. If your pseudo-philosophy about "death being a price to pay" and "I can comprehend nothingness as complete peace" satisfies you, then don't let me get in the way.

[Note to self: stay out of Serious Discussion board, as people don't take it seriously.]

[Meteor]

I don't understand your point. You haven't even answered the questions yourself, so I'm not sure where/if we even disagree.

[Geriba]

I don't understand your point. You haven't even answered the questions yourself, so I'm not sure where/if we even disagree.

Let me try again. Since you all seem to be of a scientific breed, maybe numbers will help. Person A values Activity X with 100 Love Points; Person B values that same Activity X with 1000 Love points. Both Person A and Person B are forced to give up Activity X sometime down the road. Who will it be harder for? Clearly Person B, as he or she values Activity X more than Person A.

Now imagine Activity X is "life." The less you value life, the easier it should be to come to terms with losing it. If you're a slave or indentured servant who toils everyday without rest, you'll likely have an easier time coming to terms with death than if you are a rich king; similarly, if you have a life-affirming, appreciative character, regardless of your situation, you'll find it harder to accept death than if you're of an apathetic character. The one exception to this rule seems to be religion.

Bringing everything back, if petty bullshit like biological fatalism or eternal rest is enough to let you "come to terms" with ceasing to be, then there's a very strong inductive case to be made that you don't particularly value life compared to someone who wrestles with the question as the most important one. "Epic generalization" turns out to be not-so-epic.

One last question I pose to you all: what is a more fundamental, essential question than how to come to terms with dying? And how can you be satisfied with "well other people had to die first a hurr durr"?

Edited February 10, 2011 by Jaffar7

[eclipse]

Life is a state of being, not an activity. It must end at some point. I don't see the value in fearing the end, just as I don't fear the shift from consciousness to unconsciousness (a.k.a. falling asleep).

[Geriba]

Life is a state of being, not an activity. It must end at some point. I don't see the value in fearing the end, just as I don't fear the shift from consciousness to unconsciousness (a.k.a. falling asleep).

1) If "states of being" are defined by ending at some point, then all activities are states of being. Nonsensical. My previous analogy holds.

2) How can you not fear what you don't understand? How do you know that death is like sleep?

[Hayate]

I think that, being afraid of death is weird feeling for young people (I'm going to assume that the people here are all under 60.) When you die it can actually be relieve so I am more concerned of getting older than dieing. Death is just end to this life (and I don't know will there be a second one). I'll leave any further analysis of death for wiser people.

Jaffar, I don't understand many things but that doesn't mean I should be afraid of them. If I was scared of everything that I don't understand (like womn and quantums), my life would be pretty damn misarable.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Hayate

[Geriba]

Jaffar, I don't understand many things but that doesn't mean I should be afraid of them. If I was scared of everything that I don't understand (like womn and quantums), my life would be pretty damn misarable.

There's a difference between "not being afraid" and "being at peace." The latter implies an overcoming of fear of death, which is what I'm addressing. The former is technically possible, I guess, but I would question how far you've thought through the problem of nonexistence if you aren't afraid of it. If you're are unafraid of death, you should be unafraid of everything.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Jaffar7

[Celice]

Jaffar7 is demonstrating Greek rationalism at its finest point. And that should indicate the soundness.

[Geriba]

Jaffar7 is demonstrating Greek rationalism at its finest point. And that should indicate the soundness.

Unsubstantiated sarcasm, my favorite! ;)

[Mikethfc]

I was scared of this at one point back when I was 7 and my teacher decided to explain that one of the songs we had to sing mean't we were all going to die and there's no way to avoid or escape it. I go home only to ifnd my mum watching Living TV, some Charmed episode where all the demons come back to life.

Why u rub it in TV?

[deleted35362]

People make their posts too long in serious discussion...

When you die you're gone forever. Everything that was your consciousness ceases to exist. You will no longer think or feel, because "you" will no longer exist. Call it terrifying, call it unimaginable, but it's what will happen to everyone inevitably. Best to come to terms with it now and not waste your time alive.

I've heard of this somewhere, basically humans can't accept they may never come back.

I prefer to deal with death when it happens. I just want to live while I can.

[Defeatist Elitist]

You're all very funny. We in the philosophy world would call you all "reductionists," aka people who try to understand complicated moral/existential issues by atomizing everything down to the lowest common denominator. If your pseudo-philosophy about "death being a price to pay" and "I can comprehend nothingness as complete peace" satisfies you, then don't let me get in the way.

Except I never said either of those things. I didn't just say it was a price to pay, or that it was complete peace. I said it was ceasing to exist entirely, and I said I was fucking scared of it. The reason I am scared of it however is BECAUSE I comprehend it, not because I don't. I have come to terms with death, and it's not because I think it will be peaceful, or because I see it as some price I have to pay. I have come to terms with death because it will fucking happen no matter what I do, and it is literally impossible to avoid. I'm still more afraid of it than everything else I fear combined, but I have still come to terms with it. It doesn't affect me as much, and it doesn't grip me to such a degree. I simply intend to enjoy my life as much as I can.

[Note to self: stay out of Serious Discussion board, as people don't take it seriously.]

Daderp.

Edited February 11, 2011 by ZXValaRevan

[Phoenix]

I ignored all the posts after the first one so I could reply with just the opening post in mind. Anyway.

Recently I have been thinking a lot about death. More specifically the question "what happens when we die?". Of course there are a multitude of religion based answers for this question like you go to heaven or hell, you are reincarnated, etc. And always when I think about death, I always wonder what it feels like to be dead. If my being really completely ceases to exist. Obviously when you die your body is dead, but what about your "soul"(as some people call it)? Its just its kind of impossible for me to imagine not being able to think or feel, not being conscious. And so I tend to come to the conclusion that it is impossible for someone to just not exist. Which I guess that aligns with the major religions. But recently I have become convinced that hell does not exist. And that heaven does exists, only people don't go there when they die. So, once again, if people don't go to heaven or hell when they die, what does happen?

The best guess I can come up with, even though I am a Christian, is a sort of reincarnation. But not the sort of reincarnation where your soul is just like inside another person. More of like my entire being would cease and my soul would no longer exist and I would be completely dead. And instead, I would be a new person, a new individual person who isn't me, but who I would be. I'll go ahead and say this person would be a completely new life created by God, but their consciousness would be me, who isn't actually me, but them. If that makes sense. Its really hard to explain. So I guess question/discussion topic 1 would be: Without thinking in just a strictly religious way, what do you think happens when you die? What really seems possible?

Anyways, so also as I think about death I think about time and place of death. Personally I really want to die young. I'm kind of terrified of the future, college, getting a job, all the stresses and unknowns of life, growing old and having everyone I know die while I live on, all alone. It just doesn't sound pleasant to me. I guess I kind of see death as...not really an escape from the world, but a way to get away from it I guess. Of course I don't condone suicide, but personally death seems like something to look forward to a little. I know a lot of people are afraid of death which just seems strange to me. So question/discussion topic 2: Is death good/bad? Should you be afraid of it? Are you afraid of it?

And lastly, the way someone dies(This thought won't be very long haha). Obviously there are many ways that someone can die. Personally I don' want to die of old age, it just doesn't seem like the way I would die. I see myself dying in either a car wreck or from some health problem, like cancer. I can't really say why, but whenever I think about death those are just the two most probably methods that pop into my head. So question/discussion topic 3: Do you ever feel like you might know how you're going to die or how you want to die?

*I'll go ahead and apologize for typos, probable bad grammar, and lack of some punctuation(apostrophes mostly). Oh and sorry for the wall of text.*

I personally don't believe in an afterlife. One reason is because the concept makes absolutely no sense to me, and the second reason is because the idea is not supported in by religious beliefs.

What I do believe is that what people refer to as a "soul" is more like the essence of life. Not something that actually lives forever but perishes right along with you. "Life itself" is another way to put that.

As for what happens when we die. I believe that it's truly the end of everything. I define life as "Conscious Existence" and death as a lack or end of it and nothing more. Complete inability to think or become aware of anything. To be perfectly honest. The thought of that is rather comforting to me. There's no afterlife scenario I can think of involving a stereotypical disembodied soul that really goes well in my opinion.

Fear of Death: I had a close call with death back in October. While I was struggling to breathe(I had respiratory failure) I was also trying to tell my mother that I was sorry for being such a crappy son. I figured I wouldn't get another chance so eh. What I noticed was that every time I feel like I'm about to die, a flush of energy rushes down from my head sweeping over my entire body and as soon as that happens, any inhibitions I have are gone like that. Happened right on cue and then I said that^ to her. When she realized I was giving up(AND I WAS), she called(shouted) the doctors back into the room and then I passed out(couldn't stay conscious with so little air). Woke up a few days later still alive.

Nothing flashed before my eyes, and I didn't dream at all. The last thing I remember were doctors rushing back in, and the next thing I knew I was awake in the middle of the night hooked up like an elderly person.

What I learned from the experience was that death isn't what really scares me; it's regret. We can die in a lot of messed up ways of course and that's terrifying but worse than that for me is regret. Unfortunately I'm probably going to die with a slew of regrets in the end but I can at least try not to make any new ones in the future and try to live a life that had more of what I do want than what I don't.

Death Good/Bad: All I have to say is this. I don't want to live forever if I have to do it in a physical form like this. I especially don't want to live forever if I have to do it as a ghost. I see death as good in that there is some kind of finality(a type of mercy IMO) versus an ongoing existence that will eventually drive even the most enthusiastic of us completely insane with its inevitable repetitiveness.

If there's any form of immortality that stretches beyond the limits of our minds(and I believe there is, but won't get into that) and into something that can go on forever without driving us up a wall, I'd only see death as bad if it kept us from that indefinitely.

[Phoenix Wright]

The reason I am scared of it however is BECAUSE I comprehend it, not because I don't.

I am inclined to disagree.

Death is somewhat like what you and I have got going on here. For example, you comprehend the fact that I exist, and that it is inevitable that I, Phoenix Wright, or *Insert Name Here,* will die someday. However, that's about as far as it goes. You know no details of me, no specifics. It is much the same with death: you know it is inevitable, and you comprehend that you will cease to be, but you know nothing after that. How can you? Death is not something that is tangible, or something that can be experimented on. We cannot find out facts about death until we "experience" (please mind the quotations :)) it ourselves. We can know everything in the universe and still know nothing about death. Point being: you cannot comprehend death, you can only comprehend that it will one day happen to you.

I'm actually concerned for folks who do not fear death.

------------------------------------------------------------

And of course, I don't believe I've answered all the questions yet...

Is death good/bad?: I feel that the inevitability of death is quite unfair. I cannot describe it as "bad" or "good," only unfair. Why must I, or anyone else, die? Why must that be a law of nature? Why is my body not a self-perpetuating machine?

Do you ever feel like you might know how you're going to die or how you want to die?: I want to die relatively happy. I'm not sure how possible this is. I want to be proud of myself when I die. I want to die painlessly.

Edited February 11, 2011 by Phoenix Wright

[Defeatist Elitist]

I am inclined to disagree.

Death is somewhat like what you and I have got going on here. For example, you comprehend the fact that I exist, and that it is inevitable that I, Phoenix Wright, or *Insert Name Here,* will die someday. However, that's about as far as it goes. You know no details of me, no specifics. It is much the same with death: you know it is inevitable, and you comprehend that you will cease to be, but you know nothing after that. How can you? Death is not something that is tangible, or something that can be experimented on. We cannot find out facts about death until we "experience" (please mind the quotations :)) it ourselves. We can know everything in the universe and still know nothing about death. Point being: you cannot comprehend death, you can only comprehend that it will one day happen to you.

And I'm saying I can comprehend it, and I think most people can. It's difficult to explain, but I don't think it's impossible to understand. You say that we know nothing after ceasing to be, but isn't that all we need to know?

[Aleph]

compared to someone who wrestles with the question as the most important one

>implying any of us don't do the same

That you think the question hasn't been at the top of my mind for the latter half of my life at just about all times is nothing short of hilariously misguided.

Learn to read? I don't just mean text either, though that should have been obvious.

[Phoenix Wright]

And I'm saying I can comprehend it, and I think most people can. It's difficult to explain, but I don't think it's impossible to understand. You say that we know nothing after ceasing to be, but isn't that all we need to know?

Fair enough. There's really no way I can tell you that you cannot comprehend anything anyways, haha.

I'm suggesting that it might not be. A far-fetched possibility, but a possibility nonetheless. Perhaps something entirely natural after "death" may exist?

[Celice]

Being compressed into a diamond, yes.