Death

[Raven]

I accept death to be nothing more or less than the loss of every single sense we live with.

[Swordmaster]

...

Edited March 5, 2011 by Swordmaster

[Snowy_One]

Probably irrelevant to the ongoing discussion at this point but still...

Scientifically, as in 'from what we can know from our observations of the physical reality', death is simply a termination of the physical body. When a being dies, their body ceases to function causing a total loss of consciousness and a ceasing of existence for the living being. They will leave behind a corpse, but there is nothing separating said corpse from fertilizer aside from the memories of the still living. All beings are slowly reverting to a more uniform and homogeneous state, which inevitably means that everything will be forced to eventually revert to its base components and give up any structure that it once held.

Is there life after death? Do we go to heaven or hell? Are we reincarnated? I don't know. I have faith in my beliefs of Heaven and God but God is unscientific. He may exist or not; heaven and hell may exist or not. I don't know. Such a thing is beyond the capability of science to prove or disprove.

As for what death feels like, it feels like being trapped in a room filled with old people who are currently engaged in a five hour discussion of tax laws while you are required to smile and stay silent for the entire time or else you don't get paid. I know that one for a fact.

[Kanami]

The idea of atheism bothers me for some reason. Really? Life has no point and there is no chance that it could have any meaning? I can't buy into that.

What I don't believe is that some almighty being allocated my life a meaning. I've always thought that it was my own job to find a point and meaning to my own life. If God exists, he gave me that option, and my option was to not believe he exists.

And am I the only one who finds some creepy divine beings no one can punish or observe watching me 24/7 to be creepy?

I just don't understand why anyone can claim that there is no God with certainty.

When someone says there is no "God." They're saying that they do not believe in god. A statement doesn't make fact. But a statement can be made on what one believes to be fact. For example those that claim there is a "God" can't really explain his existence adequately enough either.

Either way, I refuse to believe in something just because I don't want to go to hell. Do I want to die and burn in hell? Of course not, but I'm not willing to have some 'half-arsed' devotion to a God just because I fear the bad things he may be able to do to me.

As for what death feels like, it feels like being trapped in a room filled with old people who are currently engaged in a five hour discussion of tax laws while you are required to smile and stay silent for the entire time or else you don't get paid. I know that one for a fact.

Is God so bad that he taxes us even after we're dead? Gee, and I thought politicians were evil.

[Snowy_One]

Is God so bad that he taxes us even after we're dead? Gee, and I thought politicians were evil.

There are few jobs in life that have made me wish for the sweet embrace of death. The day I was hired to sit in a room for several hours on-end to record and process the minutes for a tax law meeting is one of them.

What I don't believe is that some almighty being allocated my life a meaning. I've always thought that it was my own job to find a point and meaning to my own life. If God exists, he gave me that option, and my option was to not believe he exists.

And am I the only one who finds some creepy divine beings no one can punish or observe watching me 24/7 to be creepy?

You may not want to hear this, but both the government and perverts are pretty much capable of observing you 24/7 already if they really wanted to. Sure, invasion of privacy laws and all that, but remember that they are capable of finding every little loophole (if government) or probably don't care (if perverted/criminal). Without even going all conspiracy theory, just think about all the government paperwork you need to go through one day. Drivers license, employment records, credit card transactions to put gas in the car/food in your tummy. Stuff like that. It's pretty easily tracked if someone has the right abilities (like the government).

When someone says there is no "God." They're saying that they do not believe in god. A statement doesn't make fact. But a statement can be made on what one believes to be fact. For example those that claim there is a "God" can't really explain his existence adequately enough either.

Either way, I refuse to believe in something just because I don't want to go to hell. Do I want to die and burn in hell? Of course not, but I'm not willing to have some 'half-arsed' devotion to a God just because I fear the bad things he may be able to do to me.

This is one big problem I have with people who try to use fear of anything as reason to follow any religion. It only lasts as long as the people are afraid. Even if, say some huge-ass plague was sweeping the world, but Aura Mazda (Zoroastrian deity) was offering guaranteed divine immunity and it worked, the moment the plague vanished there would be a huge fallout of followers.

[FionordeQuester]

I don't believe death is real, whether my religion turns out to be true, or not. If my belief in God ends up being correct, then I'll end up in a place of eternal bliss where I'll never be tempted to do evil things ever again or ever be sad again. This is what I believe.

If it turns out I am wrong however, then I believe that my consciousness would just pass into the ground, through some leaves, then once eaten by an animal, my consciousness would survive in the nutrients needed for their kids, then pass through something else, until I end up as a human again.

Naturally though, I would much rather have the former be true. I feel sad for those who don't believe in an afterlife really. It means you're going to live your life without hope, especially if you end up like, say, the people experimented on by the scientists in Unit 731 of Japan in World War II. How would you like THAT as a way to die?

Also Celice....my condolences. I know how much that must suck, I'm going through something similar right now, I'm finding it hard to keep up my spirits in the face of horrors like Unit 731 in the above paragraph. I've been in a depression where I've found it hard to concentrate on anything for about a week now. But, I try to keep my faith in God, and I think it's helped. If you could do me a favor, please don't kill yourself even should you find the means to work yourself up for it. I'm rather interested in seeing how you're doing throughout the days.

Edited March 17, 2011 by FionordeQuester

[Celice]

I've actually become a little worse than usual myself. The funny here is that I am more concerned for you than I am for myself--I've always cared more about how others feel. Mostly because I know how I feel, and it isn't good. At all. I don't want anyone coming close to how I feel--I want them as far away from it as possible, unless they want to feel this way.

Finding an object to tether to and give attention is the best method in coping with any unwelcome or unwanted feelings. A lot of "basic" people would listen to music, or concentrate on their job, or watch TV, play games--get into some mindless task to take over their thinking, realizing part. This is the only real support against suicidal thoughts: people try to cancel the symptoms out, and to tide over the moments of fearfulness and unhappiness, long enough for them to feel a little better. It's not a very good mechanism for coping. But if it helps you, and your willing to accept it, go for it, entertain yourself and divide attention. Kill brain cells on a TV or game, or investigate your love of God, or other religious figure. The biggest argument against feeling down is that it's temporary, and it's important to not let the low overtake the high.

On that note, though, one should remember that lows are not always temporary. They may be the "default setting." And you need to find ways of feeling as if you're not stuck there, finding reasons to be happy, stimulus which makes you happy. It's pretty easy to deal with unhappiness and depressed states, an upset humour, if you're one of those "basic" chaps, people who don't reflect on why it is they are unhappy, who don't realize, or who have smaller things which make them unhappy, such as their weight, their diet, their surroundings, things which are alterable and controllable to an extent. For me, much of what makes me so distressed, full of dread, and wholly melancholy is that it's not something so small, it's not some provincial state of being. It's not a handful of expectations and feelings. It's the realization of it all, that burden of existing which is talked about often but very low, in books not handed out or enacted in plays.

In a way, there's two very different ways of dealing with unhappiness. Unraveling what it is you are responding to, find its core, and acting on that realization. And unraveling yourself, until you can unravel no more, and you see there is no answer. It simply is, and you the same. And usually, the only answer I've heard is to become inauthentic to yourself, and forcibly make yourself look at things differently, to cope with what it is. An unauthentic happiness. I have no interest in such a thing. If I did, I would be happy.

[Kanami]

@Snowy, Assuming what you said is true and that the government is indeed capable. I still really doubt that the government watch people unless they have reason to. Watching them cost resources, monetary and human. And unless we're all keeping an eye on eachother it's lacking as a solid argument.

@ FionordeQuester

I feel sad for those who don't believe in an afterlife really. It means you're going to live your life without hope, especially if you end up like, say, the people experimented on by the scientists in Unit 731 of Japan in World War II.

This is why I don't like religious people :/ They always seem to be talking down at you with these strange ideas. Why does not believing in an "Afterlife" equate to a life without hope? I'll relent to the idea of "dying without hope." But there's still plenty of "hope" in my life, a simple example being "I hope I did well in that last test at school." "I look forward to going out with my friends on the weekend" "I'm 40 years old and have never had a girlfriend... but one day....'

.... Well I can't guarantee the last one, but until faced directly with death. I live for past, the present, the near-future, and whatever comes between that and my death notice. Feeling sad is your personal emotion, and that's up to you, but I certainly don't appreciate unnecessary pity directed my way. As for Unit 731, yes it's horrible. And yes they probably didn't have much hope either. But that's a minority, very few people actually get tortured to death :/

Finding an object to tether to and give attention is the best method in coping with any unwelcome or unwanted feelings. A lot of "basic" people would listen to music, or concentrate on their job, or watch TV, play games--get into some mindless task to take over their thinking, realizing part. This is the only real support against suicidal thoughts: people try to cancel the symptoms out, and to tide over the moments of fearfulness and unhappiness, long enough for them to feel a little better. It's not a very good mechanism for coping.

Indeed it isn't. A common example I use against this coping method is the 60 year old retiree, who worked his entire life for a company, pouring all his emotions into it, only to be shown the door as soon as he hit retirement (or was considered too old). I think the proverb is goes something like "Don't put all your eggs in one basket"... or something. Games too are limited, they eventually end. And I myself have felt a little moody when I finish a good book/game/movie. It's this weird feeling that the story's over and you'll never see these people again. Sure you could re-read the book, but it's just not the same.

My personal perspective on this is the same one people like to preech for less serious things like obesity and bad grades. If you don't pull yourself out, no one will. If you try to get out, someone might offer you a helping hand, they may even pull you out completely. But unless you take the first steps, nothing changes.

That said, waiting for someone to reach out to you isn't always reliable, so I'd suggest tackling the problem with the mentality that you're in this alone. If someone helps, great. If they didn't, it's to be expected and you won't feel more miserable when the helping hand doesn't arrive immediately.

[Snowy_One]

@Snowy, Assuming what you said is true and that the government is indeed capable. I still really doubt that the government watch people unless they have reason to. Watching them cost resources, monetary and human. And unless we're all keeping an eye on eachother it's lacking as a solid argument.

A reason don't really matter to my statement. The point is that they CAN do it without even touching on conspiracy theory level and while staying in America (where there are plenty of checks and balances). Granted, it's not perfect and it is possible to slip under their gaze with ease, but you still have to actually put some effort into it if you wanna pull it off. Simple things like switching to cash-only transactions and such help, but aren't a perfect answer.

This is why I don't like religious people :/ They always seem to be talking down at you with these strange ideas. Why does not believing in an "Afterlife" equate to a life without hope? I'll relent to the idea of "dying without hope." But there's still plenty of "hope" in my life, a simple example being "I hope I did well in that last test at school." "I look forward to going out with my friends on the weekend" "I'm 40 years old and have never had a girlfriend... but one day....'

.... Well I can't guarantee the last one, but until faced directly with death. I live for past, the present, the near-future, and whatever comes between that and my death notice. Feeling sad is your personal emotion, and that's up to you, but I certainly don't appreciate unnecessary pity directed my way. As for Unit 731, yes it's horrible. And yes they probably didn't have much hope either. But that's a minority, very few people actually get tortured to death :/

Because your values and lifestyles are different. To you, Kanami, I am willing to wager that your lack of a belief in a afterlife has made it so that you seek to find value in the moment. However, to Fionorde, someone who has likely grown up in their faith, their moments are different as they seek to attain a different sort of value from it. You may see going to church in the morning as a waste of time that could be spent elsewhere doing other things; someone else may see it as a choice sacrifice to show respect to their faith, while someone else may see it as a point-earner on some sort of divine reward/punishment system, while someone ELSE may refuse to go simply because they are lazy. It's basically what happens when you have two cultures with differing values clash up against each other; they seem weird, strange, foreign, and all sorts of other things to each other. Neither is right or wrong of necessity, but they are different and will seem bizarre to the other.

Following in that trend, a lot of our own personal concepts of what death is like are likely shaped by our own culture. Do we see light or darkness? Do we feel warmth or cold? Even if there is a scientific answer (I'm sure there is), the fact is that people will always shape their ideas about what death is like from their own culture. A culture that values social interactions and family may tend to portray death within the company of others to be a good thing, while a lonely death to be a bad thing for example. So a old man dying in his bed surrounded by friends and family may have him feel warm and see light in his death even if he was, say, a drug lord who was just shot through the heart in a police raid and he's bleeding out on his bed. Conversely, in the same culture, someone who is dying alone may feel cold and see darkness regardless of the life he followed. I don't know what the actual science is as to what the men will actually feel, but I do know that regardless of the science, our views on this will ALWAYS be shaped by our culture. Now, it is possible that the culture and science be in line with each other, or for the culture to be a scientific one, but it will still be shaped by it.

[Phoenix]

I feel sad for those who don't believe in an afterlife really. It means you're going to live your life without hope,

Let me just speak for myself here and say that this is not a life without hope. The afterlife is neither something you can adequately prepare for nor factor into your daily life(and so for me that leaves no point in trying). That doesn't make focus on the physical aspect of our existence hopeless. What it means for me to discount the afterlife is that I have some of my priorities in order

It's nice to think after death you'll be blissfully happy for eternity(YMMV) but it's not something I'll invest in, partly because I don't believe in life after death anyway, and partly because knowing my own nature, having a belief like that will change my thinking and devalue the current life I'm living right now ... over time. Besides, according to many religions, you've got to earn that post burial bliss. Where does that happen? In the current life you're living. How does it happen? Well I doubt it's by being depressed

[Fire Emblem Addict]

Like some people have already said before, I think death is in many ways analogous to sleeping (without dreams of course). First of all, from a atheistic perspective (since there are simply religious views on this matter to be considered in one post), death "feels" like the state in which one lacks all consciousness (self awareness, emotions, etc.). This is analogous to sleep since when one is asleep, one also lacks consciousness. The second way in which death is analogous to sleep is the fact that trying to fall asleep without being fatigued first feels extremely unpleasant and just like an early death may seem unpleasant. The third parallel between sleep and death can be seen in the fact that some people die satisfied and proud of their life's work. This is analogous to feeling tired and falling asleep after a long day of surmounting difficult challenges. Much like a tired person going to bed, death can be "satisfying" in this case. That being said, the state of being dead should neither be feared nor embraced (for there is nothing terrible about it) but simply accepted as one of the consequences of life. After all, one who spends one's life fearing death denies oneself the opportunity to live a happier life.

And to leave everyone with this interesting quote from Richard Dawkins' book Unweaving the Rainbow:

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here."

EDIT: just removing a few words and formatting a little

Edited April 19, 2011 by Fire Emblem Addict

[Esau of Isaac]

The problem with interpreting death as analogous to sleep is that even from the perspective of one sleeping, they exist. You lack consciousness, but your self is still operating and functional. Not so when you are dead. You can't say that death feels like sleeping, because it doesn't feel like anything, since you don't exist anymore.

[Zanarkin]

The problem with interpreting death as analogous to sleep is that even from the perspective of one sleeping, they exist. You lack consciousness, but your self is still operating and functional. Not so when you are dead. You can't say that death feels like sleeping, because it doesn't feel like anything, since you don't exist anymore.

But you stop thinking, you lose consciousness. You are not aware you are there. How would this be any different from death. Or atleast what is assumed to be death in this case. To me sleep seems like the most reasonable and closest thing to death you can get without well... dying. It gives you something to look at and observe. Something concrete. Rather than you know using make-believe stories.

[Strawman]

So is, like, the after-life like a dream if you are comparing sleep to death?

[Zanarkin]

So is, like, the after-life like a dream if you are comparing sleep to death?

I'm pretty sure its the period of time where there is no dream, and you don't wake up. If that makes any sense. At least thats what i've been comparing it to.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Ulki

[Fire Emblem Addict]

The problem with interpreting death as analogous to sleep is that even from the perspective of one sleeping, they exist. You lack consciousness, but your self is still operating and functional. Not so when you are dead. You can't say that death feels like sleeping, because it doesn't feel like anything, since you don't exist anymore.

You are correct in your statement that from a biological perspective, sleep is very different from death. However, I was under the impression that we are discussing how it would "feel" to be dead. You are also correct in saying that you don't feel anything after you die, but since we always feel something for the vast majority of our lives (emotions, sensory input, reasoning, etc.), the closest thing that anyone has experienced to a state of having no self-awareness whatsoever is in a dreamless sleep.

As for dreams being like the afterlife, I think one would have to have a definition of death different from the one I proposed (which is that death is the permanent loss of consciousness and self-awareness) since an afterlife automatically implies self-awareness and consciousness.

Hope that makes everything more clear

[Esau of Isaac]

But you stop thinking, you lose consciousness. You are not aware you are there. How would this be any different from death

Because you are there. You are just not consciously thinking.

You are correct in your statement that from a biological perspective, sleep is very different from death. However, I was under the impression that we are discussing how it would "feel" to be dead. You are also correct in saying that you don't feel anything after you die, but since we always feel something for the vast majority of our lives (emotions, sensory input, reasoning, etc.), the closest thing that anyone has experienced to a state of having no self-awareness whatsoever is in a dreamless sleep.

As for dreams being like the afterlife, I think one would have to have a definition of death different from the one I proposed (which is that death is the permanent loss of consciousness and self-awareness) since an afterlife automatically implies self-awareness and consciousness.

Hope that makes everything more clear

That's certainly a fair assessment.

[Phoenix Wright]

I haven't finished reading yet, but this article seems interesting, and perhaps even reassuring. Hopefully it's reasonable enough to at least bring down the "level" my personal horror of death. http://bardcan.wordpress.com/

[Fire Emblem Addict]

I haven't finished reading yet, but this article seems interesting, and perhaps even reassuring. Hopefully it's reasonable enough to at least bring down the "level" my personal horror of death. http://bardcan.wordpress.com/

Yup I agree with what's written in the article. To quote Epicurus, "Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist."

[eclipse]

It was interesting until I saw the following:

Literally, we are the only animals that know - about ourselves and about the world around us.

I remember several animals recognized mirror images of themselves. Birds and other animals migrate great distances without the use of our silly tools. Some primates use parts of their environment as tools.

I am not sure if the author meant it that way, but he comes across as ignorant. I think we humans are the ones that need to learn more about the world around us.

You felt no pain, happiness, love or fear before you were born, and you won’t feel anything when your time is done. If it saddens you to think that at some point in the future you will no longer physically exist then why does it not sadden you to think of the trillions of years before you were born in which you were also absent.

Please don't assume that about me.

A thought cannot exist within any one moment in time. If that were true then you could cryogenically freeze someone’s brain, halting the electrons and chemicals in that moment, and the person would be stuck forever thinking the same thought.

Since human cryogenic freezing isn't something that can be tested, I have serious doubts about this.

Most importantly, discard your fears about death or time passing you by. There is no end to be feared.

I'm far more afraid of the events leading up to the end, some of which can be excruciatingly painful.

*sees book list*

Yep, atheist. I don't mind that he's trying to come to terms with death, but I do mind the way he presented it.

[Celice]

I remember several animals recognized mirror images of themselves. Birds and other animals migrate great distances without the use of our silly tools. Some primates use parts of their environment as tools.

Having a self-reflexive awareness and recognizing an image in a mirror are two vastly separate things.

?

[someonewhodied]

I *WISH* that we reencarnate.

I *THINK* that we just see a flash of white at death and pitch black and then just...dissapear.

Yes, I think, I don't KNOW though my username suggests otherwise.

[eclipse]

Having a self-reflexive awareness and recognizing an image in a mirror are two vastly separate things.

?

IIRC, recognizing one's self in a mirror was one of the signs of self-awareness.

(or I could be talking out of my horrid memory)

[Celice]

Seeing something, and remembering that it happens to appear under certain context, doesn't mean there's evidence of self-awareness. It means memory and basic senses are operating...

[eclipse]

You made me wonder if I remember right, so I did a touch of research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test