[FE10] Radiant Dawn Transfers Draft

[Claude C Kenny]

Why would you play RD first if you want transfers for it?

Because this draft is for hard mode, and I don't have hard mode available. so, it would be more important to open up hard mode so I can still participate, rather than worry about which 2 stats I can transfer from PoR. plus, I haven't played RD in almost a year, so it gives me a chance to see the game again, since I don't remember too much about it.

[Xander]

I guess I was misreading it before. But why is it like that for just FE10? FE10 is arguably the game where you're most likely to need it, particularly in Hard mode, and yet no other drafts disallow the deployment of random characters completely as far as I know. It doesn't make sense to me. And whether or not someone needs it depends on the team and the competence of the player. Say someone is in 3-3 with only Ike drafted. Yes, that is terrible drafting, but it can happen, and it could render the game unwinnable. Even aside from that, what if someone just wants to take a penalty to make it easier to clear the map? If you have a solid 4 turn penalty, I doubt any unit could make that up over the course of a single map.

Well, this came up because Rein was worried about part 2 where he only has Leanne drafted. I mentioned that Haar would make things easier in 2-E and we went from there.

I already suggested 3 or 4. I am not talking about recruiter units, and that only applies to Rafiel and Bastian anyway. And even that's really too low.

Why would this be changed in the first place?

Rein has Leanne for 2-E. He could easily 2 or 3 turn it with Elincia without risking stun. Just have her pick up a halberdier and drop him off in Ludveck's range, then attack Ludveck, Vigor, and attack again. In that particular case (of 3-3) I'd probably let someone deploy more than one undrafted unit, but since no one is in that situation, I don't feel like there's a need to change the rule.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Xander

[Florete]

Rein has Leanne for 2-E. He could easily 2 or 3 turn it with Elincia without risking stun. Just have her pick up a halberdier and drop him off in Ludveck's range, then attack Ludveck, Vigor, and attack again. In that particular case (of 3-3) I'd probably let someone deploy more than one undrafted unit, but since no one is in that situation, I don't feel like there's a need to change the rule.

I don't really need the rule changed at this point. Right now I'm just wondering why it exists.

[Xander]

I'm not sure either, but I'd guess it's to keep the strategy in the game, so everyone doesn't just use Haar to 2 turn 2-E, and use undrafted fliers in the desert chapter, and in this game there's a considerable amount of bexp, so it's entirely possible to go through the game without using anyone but your drafted characters.

[Florete]

But if you used those units, you'd be racking up the penalties. How is this different from other FEs?

[Xander]

I'm thinking because there are alot of chapters and characters in this one, and no one would feel like going through each individual one deciding how much Haar should be worth on 2-E as opposed to 3-4 and 4-3. Obviously if you had a set penalty, like 4, you would still save more turns than you would in the long run, had you not used certain units on certain chapters, I think this way is much more convenient and organized.

Edited April 16, 2011 by Xander

[Florete]

Obviously if you had a set penalty, like 4, you would still save more turns than you would in the long run, had you not used certain units on certain chapters, I think this way is much more convenient and organized.

I'm sorry, but what exactly is this saying? Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but I can't really tell.

[Xander]

Um, look at how all throughout the penalties list the forced characters are given penalties based on how much they help you in said chapter. In order to remove the rule, you would have to go through and do that with non forced characters as well, which isn't worth it.

[Florete]

Um, look at how all throughout the penalties list the forced characters are given penalties based on how much they help you in said chapter. In order to remove the rule, you would have to go through and do that with non forced characters as well, which isn't worth it.

That's why you make a constant penalty. Any undrafted unit that gets manually deployed adds 4 turns as a result. Just like every other game's drafts.

[Xander]

But I don't think Nailah deserves the same penalty as other undrafted units in 1-8, as she's clearly a cut above the rest. That's not the only example, either. The value of some drafted units would go down significantly. I don't think there's anything wrong with this way of drafting, in fact, it's probably more evolved than the other drafting systems.

Edited April 16, 2011 by Xander

[Florete]

But I don't think Nailah deserves the same penalty as other undrafted units in 1-8, as she's clearly a cut above the rest. That's not the only example, either. The value of some drafted units would go down significantly. I don't think there's anything wrong with this way of drafting, in fact, it's probably more evolved than the other drafting systems.

That's why you make a constant penalty. Any undrafted unit that gets manually deployed adds 4 turns as a result. Just like every other game's drafts.

Care to give an example of what units would lose value from this and how?

[Xander]

Care to give an example of what units would lose value from this and how?

I misread what you had said before, thinking you had said a 4 turn penalty for everyone, but really it seems like the rule just lets poor drafting skills off easy. The reason that units have different amounts of penalties is because they help you in a given chapter so much. Naesala in 4-3 would be letting someone off the hook with only a 4 turn penalty if they didn't draft any other fliers. If you and the majority of the players want, I can put the rule in.

Edited April 16, 2011 by Xander

[Zanarkin]

I don't really see the necessity of it. It makes sense, imo, that a unit shouln't be deployed if they weren't drafted. If we do implement this rule, however, we should not have a set penalty for all. Ceirtain units, such as fliers and high move units could be abused to easily make their penalty a trivial thing.

[Xander]

I know, that's what I was saying. I don't want to go through and decide on each individual unit's worth, so I'm leaning towards no.

[Yuglyoshi]

I agree with Xander and Ulki.

[Florete]

I misread what you had said before, thinking you had said a 4 turn penalty for everyone, but really it seems like the rule just lets poor drafting skills off easy. The reason that units have different amounts of penalties is because they help you in a given chapter so much. Naesala in 4-3 would be letting someone off the hook with only a 4 turn penalty if they didn't draft any other fliers. If you and the majority of the players want, I can put the rule in.

Something like Naesala in 4-3 can have a higher penalty if deemed necessary. How is a 4 turn penalty letting anyone off easy in the majority of circumstances? Naesala is the exception, not the rule, if he's even that good.

I don't really see the necessity of it. It makes sense, imo, that a unit shouln't be deployed if they weren't drafted. If we do implement this rule, however, we should not have a set penalty for all. Ceirtain units, such as fliers and high move units could be abused to easily make their penalty a trivial thing.

It is extremely rare that a single undrafted, manually deployed unit could save 5+ turns over the course of a map. There's nothing "trivial" about it.

Also note that I'm not advocating any changes to the current draft. This is more to be kept in mind for later.

[Junkhead]

Seeing as situations where you NEED to deploy undrafted characters that aren't forced hasn't happened, I don't see the current penalty system as a problem. It actually gives characters different kind of values as well. You can't expect Leo and Nolan to get the same penalty cost. And I highly doubt there is going to be anyone silly enough to trap themselves without a backup plan. It's all up to the drafter, honestly.

[Xander]

Something like Naesala in 4-3 can have a higher penalty if deemed necessary. How is a 4 turn penalty letting anyone off easy in the majority of circumstances? Naesala is the exception, not the rule, if he's even that good.

It is extremely rare that a single undrafted, manually deployed unit could save 5+ turns over the course of a map. There's nothing "trivial" about it.

Also note that I'm not advocating any changes to the current draft. This is more to be kept in mind for later.

Naesala was just an example. Haar in 3-3 and 3-4 assuming you don't have more than Ike and a non mount drafted. Hell, even Titania or Oscar in 3-3. Haar and other fliers in 4-3, and even in 4-2, where a flier like Ulki or Janaff, or both can be used to match or even better what Tibarn does, while each being worth half the penalty.

Edited April 16, 2011 by Xander

[Florete]

Seeing as situations where you NEED to deploy undrafted characters that aren't forced hasn't happened, I don't see the current penalty system as a problem. It actually gives characters different kind of values as well. You can't expect Leo and Nolan to get the same penalty cost. And I highly doubt there is going to be anyone silly enough to trap themselves without a backup plan. It's all up to the drafter, honestly.

Not everyone has the same level of competence at these games. People also make mistakes.

Naesala was just an example. Haar in 3-3 and 3-4 assuming you don't have more than Ike and a non mount drafted. Hell, even Titania or Oscar in 3-3. Haar and other fliers in 4-3, and even in 4-2, where a flier like Ulki or Janaff, or both can be used to match or even better what Tibarn does, while each being worth half the penalty.

Unless you have an extremely limited team, Haar, Oscar, and/or Titania aren't making up for a 4 turn penalty. You're mistaking "This unit is really useful in this map" for "This unit is worth the cost." The two are not the same, and you'd be hard-pressed to find a map where they are truly worth such a cost.

Also, unless the player has been stacking up penalties all game, Haar will be useless in 4-3 on account of, you know, being at base level. Same but not as bad for the Hawks there. And if they're only worth half the penalty, you are still putting on 2 turns each.

Seriously, what is being missed here? How is what I'm saying different from any other FE drafting tournament for the other games where this rule doesn't exist?

Edited April 16, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Xander]

Not everyone has the same level of competence at these games. People also make mistakes.

Unless you have an extremely limited team, Haar, Oscar, and/or Titania aren't making up for a 4 turn penalty. You're mistaking "This unit is really useful in this map" for "This unit is worth the cost." The two are not the same, and you'd be hard-pressed to find a map where they are truly worth such a cost.

Also, unless the player has been stacking up penalties all game, Haar will be useless in 4-3 on account of, you know, being at base level. Same but not as bad for the Hawks there. And if they're only worth half the penalty, you are still putting on 2 turns each.

Seriously, what is being missed here? How is what I'm saying different from any other FE drafting tournament for the other games where this rule doesn't exist?

Oh yes they are. With a three non mounted units (Ike, Boyd, Gatrie), I can get 3-3 done in 12 turns. With 3 non mounted units and Titania, I can get it done in 7 turns. With Haar, I could probably get it done sooner.

Edit: Bonus exp exists, and there's an overabundance come part 4. I doubt anyone would actually use a base level Haar in 4-3 all he needs is decent AS and resolve and he'll be fine..

Edited April 16, 2011 by Xander

[Claude C Kenny]

As long as I stick to my drafted units, I should be fine, right?

[Florete]

Oh yes they are. With a three non mounted units (Ike, Boyd, Gatrie), I can get 3-3 done in 12 turns. With 3 non mounted units and Titania, I can get it done in 7 turns. With Haar, I could probably get it done sooner.

I do not believe you. When I was doing that map with Ike, Oscar, and Titania (and Gatrie as my free unit), it took 10 turns, and I was resetting a lot to find the best way to do it. That's two non mounted units and two mounted units, even better than your given team. It could probably be done a bit faster, but 7 turns is really pushing it (and the maximum for Titania to actually save anything herself), especially considering the player would likely not have leveled Titania or Haar at all to this point.

And even if you are right, wow, one more exception. We're at a whole two now. Heads spinning yet at the complexity of what you have to look into now?

Edit: Bonus exp exists, and there's an overabundance come part 4. I doubt anyone would actually use a base level Haar in 4-3..

Considering we are still talking in the context of Hard mode, there is not nearly enough BEXP to be wasting on Haar for a single map. If NM, well, read on.

Here, why don't I solve this with one simple addition: In the case of deploying undrafted, non forced units, foot units cost 4 turns and mounted/flying units cost 6. No brain required.

And since it was ignored: Seriously, what is being missed here? How is what I'm saying different from any other FE drafting tournament for the other games where this rule doesn't exist?

[Xander]

I do not believe you. When I was doing that map with Ike, Oscar, and Titania (and Gatrie as my free unit), it took 10 turns, and I was resetting a lot to find the best way to do it. That's two non mounted units and two mounted units, even better than your given team. It could probably be done a bit faster, but 7 turns is really pushing it (and the maximum for Titania to actually save anything herself), especially considering the player would likely not have leveled Titania or Haar at all to this point.

And even if you are right, wow, one more exception. We're at a whole two now. Heads spinning yet at the complexity of what you have to look into now?

Considering we are still talking in the context of Hard mode, there is not nearly enough BEXP to be wasting on Haar for a single map. If NM, well, read on.

Here, why don't I solve this with one simple addition: In the case of deploying undrafted, non forced units, foot units cost 4 turns and mounted/flying units cost 6. No brain required.

And since it was ignored: Seriously, what is being missed here? How is what I'm saying different from any other FE drafting tournament for the other games where this rule doesn't exist?

HM? I thought we were talking about for future drafts (which are usually on NM), because majority rule was in favor against it in this one. Also, like you said, some people have different skill levels. You can obviously do 3-3 better than me without mounts, but when a mount is put into the equation, a bad player (me in this case) saves turns undeservingly, because they got to use undrafted units.

Edit: The difference is it's pretty much impossible to get screwed over to the point where you would need to use undrafted units in this game unless you're the worst player in the world, since you have all the tools you need handed to you. In games like Sacred Stones or the original FE, you don't have as many forced units as in this game iirc.

Edited April 16, 2011 by Xander

[Florete]

HM? I thought we were talking about for future drafts (which are usually on NM), because majority rule was in favor against it in this one. Also, like you said, some people have different skill levels. You can obviously do 3-3 better than me without mounts, but when a mount is put into the equation, a bad player (me in this case) saves turns undeservingly, because they got to use undrafted units.

Yeah, guess I mixed up my intentions with the fact that this is draft is HM...And I still don't see how Titania is saving so much in 3-3 alone. Plus, it feels like your story here has changed. If you're a "bad" player, how are you clearing 3-3 in 7 turns simply because you added Titania to a still small team? How is she making up (now) 7 turns?

Edit: The difference is it's pretty much impossible to get screwed over to the point where you would need to use undrafted units in this game unless you're the worst player in the world, since you have all the tools you need handed to you. In games like Sacred Stones or the original FE, you don't have as many forced units as in this game iirc.

Actually, it's just as possible. It's called bad drafting. Other FE games have forced units long enough to get a good team together and, unlike this game, you never lose a unit once you get them unless they die or are one of other very specific cases (Orson, Gatrie/Shinon). Jeigans generally being free really just complements this.

[Xander]

If you don't believe my "story", then look in my first try in the Fe10 ranked characters draft, or the Fe10 Hard mode draft tournamentI realize now I even had Rolf thrown into that mix in the latter case. Good units like that bail out bad picks. As a response to how she makes up turns, I now have a unit with Canto, who doubles with a level of bexp, and has better move than my other units.

In a different run using Titania and those three units, I managed to 7 turn.

Edited April 16, 2011 by Xander