Dr.Sholes Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 So he was Renault's friend that died and Nergal made a morph. But, the real question is, was he a dragon? Think about it, he was Renault's friend and it's implied that Renault is very old like over 100 His hood kinda reminds me of idouns and his skin is like Aine's(the first mamkute you fight in FE6) If he was a dragon, was Renault a dragon? He would almost have to be because of his age the only others that old are Ninian, Nils, Nergal, and Athos. Nergal collected quintessence to live that long Athos was a legendary hero And Ninian and Nils were both dragons It would make sense for him to be a dragon, any thoughts on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haze Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 (edited) Sigh. Canas: ...... Before...I would have said that I do not know... But now, perhaps I do... Morphs...do have souls... That is what I believe...Renault: ...That is not a bad answer. Your reply deserves another good answer... When Nergal first created his morphs, he was not alone. He had one assistant. A mercenary who wanted desperately to bring back a friend he has lost in battle. This mercenary volunteered freely for Nergal's experiments, knowing they would make him less than human... Renault's friend died, Nergal promised Renault he could revive him, which he did, as a morph. Renault is so old because Nergal experimented on him, the results made him unhuman, giving him an extended lifespan - He's not a dragon. It's POSSIBLE his friend was Kishuna, but there's no definative proof. Oh and the skin thing is easily explained by Kishuna being the first morph Nergal made. Nergal considered him a failure. Edited April 15, 2011 by Haze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvercrow Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 (edited) Yea, the game is pretty explicit that Kishuna is just a regular morph. If resurrecting dragons were that easy, I don't think Nergal would have any need to going through all the trouble of calling more through the Dragon's Gate. Edited April 15, 2011 by Silvercrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sholes Posted April 15, 2011 Author Share Posted April 15, 2011 Oh and the skin thing is easily explained by Kishuna being the first morph Nergal made. Nergal considered him a failure. I meant not only the tone but also the weird marks on his skin Yea, the game is pretty explicit that Kishuna is just a regular morph. If resurrecting dragons were that easy, I don't think Nergal would have any need to going through all the trouble of calling more through the Dragon's Gate. A morph might not be as strong as a real dragon. A morphafied dragon would, if made right which Kishuna wasn't hence the magic sealing, basically be a mamkute that Idoun makes and they aren't that powerful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvercrow Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Honestly, the fact is that there is almost no evidence either way, except that the existence of dragons in Elibe outside of Arcadia makes Nergal's entire quest for opening the gate basically pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sholes Posted April 15, 2011 Author Share Posted April 15, 2011 Maybe that's a reason why Nergal tried to make Kishuna a morph so he could use his dragon powers but failed and that's why he wants to open the gate, just a possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Kishuna wasn't the first morph he made. It was the first one he made with emotions. He said it was not sufficient for him to refer to Kishuna as merely a number, implying that he had been numbering his previous morphs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrhesia Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 (edited) Look, you're clutching at straws. There is no evidence for this absurd premise, not even mentioning it kills the plot. Edited April 15, 2011 by Furetchen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack of the Dead Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Kishuna being Renault's friend is a big stretch. too big. In fact, impossible. Nergal is skilled at making morphs look like people, while they do not have the original consciousness, it still looks like them. Kishuna looks nothing like any human being. unless you've tried running up next to kishuna with renault to see what happens, and there happens to be some hidden dialogue to prove your statement, there is nothing to suggest him being the reincarnation of Renault's friend. What gets me is, if Nergal had no need for kishuna, why were there morphs still protecting him? (Yes, I know, its a game and they need some kind of conflict to make the levels worthwhile. aside from that...) Can anyone speculate to why that would happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 There is a short talk by Renault at the start of the last Kishuna chapter which sort of hints at it, but then again, a lot of people have this kind of quick pre-battle conversation quickly after the map they have been recruited, usually the map right after. Fiora, Raven, Lucius, Karel, Hawkeye... They wouldn't make any kind of conversation between Renault and Kishuna because it's impossible for them to fight (Kishuna can't attack and Renault is silenced by the Magic Seal). For a fun fact, the Magic Seal is actually not tied to Kishuna's presence in that chapter. If you use the Mine Glitch to make one of his morphs rescue him, the graphic display of the seal vanishes, but your magic users can still only do their thing outside of where the seal range was. As for why the morphs were there...in Genesis, one of your characters (Hawkeye I think) mentioned he "called friends" or something like that. Kishuna probably has some degree of control over the morphs. Perhaps he was one of the "higher ranked morphs" like Denning, with an army of them under his command. They must've gone along with him when Nergal made him an outcast. Either that or Kishuna can create morphs, but I don't think that's very likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 A lot of people have taken notice, however, of Kishuna's resemblance to the manner of dress the other mamkutes have in the series. Mostly from this one, :/ I seem to recall more sprites, but I don't feel like sifting through the games to find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentASM Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 At the very least, Kishuna's portrait was probably based off Ain's portrait in FE6. You can tell because Kishuna had Ain's mini portrait in beta!FE7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 What's also interesting, about that, is that lot of developers, when working with the same engine, will also reuse older resources to represent newer ones while their work is in progress. For example, it could be that Kishuna planned and Aine was used as a placeholder, but that someone similar to Aine's functionality was meant for the slot Kishuna would eventually take. Kishuna could have been an after-thought, with something like Aine being the original intent. At least, that's the trend with really early prototypes that have been unveiled through the years. You see trends like that all over the place. How old were the stolen prototype uploads of FE7? They don't seem that far from their finished product--like late beta at worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geriba Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 The distinction is that Renault's friend was the first morph, while Kishuna was the first morph with emotions. I'd like to think they're the same, but the in-game evidence just isn't there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 (edited) The distinction is that Renault's friend was the first morph, while Kishuna was the first morph with emotions. I'd like to think they're the same, but the in-game evidence just isn't there. The first morph was created centuries before the time of FE7, though. Assuming Wallace's support to be true, Renault was a mercenary with positive ideals when Wallace was a youth, but was underneath Nergal's influence when Lucius was very young. It's a reasonable assumption that he lost his friend within this time period. From Isadora's support, it is implied that Renault is not a very good bishop, which means that he hasn't been a bishop for very long. Edited April 26, 2011 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geriba Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 The first morph was created centuries before the time of FE7, though. Assuming Wallace's support to be true, Renault was a mercenary with positive ideals when Wallace was a youth, but was underneath Nergal's influence when Lucius was very young. It's a reasonable assumption that he lost his friend within this time period. From Isadora's support, it is implied that Renault is not a very good bishop, which means that he hasn't been a bishop for very long. I disagree with most of these assumptions. While the first ever "morph" was created during Nergal's stay in Arcadia (and it was so primitive I'm not sure it would've even counted), Renault's friend was the first morph created after Nergal had put his new plan into motion. There's nothing to suggest that Renault was out of his mind when he murdered Lucius' parents. On the contrary, it ties in both with his mercenary profession and with the guilt that he later develops, so deep that he seeks to become a bishop. And clearly Renault hasn't been a bishop for very long; why else would his magic stat be so low? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 (edited) I disagree with most of these assumptions. While the first ever "morph" was created during Nergal's stay in Arcadia (and it was so primitive I'm not sure it would've even counted), Renault's friend was the first morph created after Nergal had put his new plan into motion. OK, so how does that discount that morph from being Kishuna? We've confirmed that Kishuna was not the absolute first morph that Nergal created based on the fact that Nergal broke his tradition of numbering morphs for Kishuna. If we take your interpretation to be correct (that first doesn't mean the absolute first), then it supports the hypothesis that Renault's friend is Kishuna. There's nothing to suggest that Renault was out of his mind when he murdered Lucius' parents. "...He is asleep... ............ Forgive me, son. In those days... I only thought of myself... I trespassed against many in my singular drive to regain the friend I lost...and to satiate my own...monstrous greed. I even sacrificed... the lives of others... Forgive me... Please...forgive...me......" Clearly, at that point, his friend had been killed. You can't disagree with that assumption if it is stated in a support conversation. The only assumption that I made was that Renault was leading Wallace on in their support. And, of course, we all know that in FE support conversations, anything that appears to be coincidental is true. And clearly Renault hasn't been a bishop for very long; why else would his magic stat be so low? Because he lacks faith? But yes, I suppose that's a reasonable assumption, too. Edited April 26, 2011 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sholes Posted April 28, 2011 Author Share Posted April 28, 2011 Lucius said the killers eyes were full of hatred, so I'd assume he was insane at the time. Also with the bishop statement, he's large for a bishop and the weapon used to kill Lucius's father was a dagger, suggesting he was a sword user(possibly assassin?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FutureCam Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Back to Kishuna... ...does anyone else think he kind of looks like Nergal attempted to kill him, only to somehow escape? Maybe he was a failure because his main emotion caused him to steal/learn the morph-creation procedure (Greed, perhaps?) and that's why he was considered a failure - too much of a rebel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sholes Posted April 28, 2011 Author Share Posted April 28, 2011 How would Nergal kill him being a Dark Druid with Kishuna sealing magic. I don't think it's explained why he was a failure though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 And clearly Renault hasn't been a bishop for very long; why else would his magic stat be so low? Well, Bishop wasn't his first calling. He was a mercenary for a while, so he's probably just not magically gifted to begin with. Obviously, he has been a Bishop for a long time, though. How else would he have A Light and A Staff weapon ranks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FutureCam Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 We don't know HOW he became a magic seal - the destruction attempt could have failed, or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sholes Posted April 29, 2011 Author Share Posted April 29, 2011 That's true, I never thought of that concept... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desro Posted April 30, 2011 Share Posted April 30, 2011 I don't think Nergal intentionally made Kishuna with his sealing magic property (would Superman create an ally made of kryptonite?). It was probably some sort of accident that created the magic sealing ability, and because Nergal lost any ability he had to defend himself with Kishuna around, he had to outcast the morph. I'd imagine that is how Kishuna was a failure. My other suggestion would be that Kishuna was meant to have magic sealing properties that had an effect on Dragons and their ability to transform; with Nergal having the intention of storming Arcadia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sholes Posted April 30, 2011 Author Share Posted April 30, 2011 That's also a good concept. That way Athos, Fa, that old guy, and any other dragons wouldn't be able to fight. It would have worked if Nergal didn't use magic. Then again wouldn't hawkeye just step on him? Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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