Mechanics that you want

[Thor Odinson]

I think it's the issue with sword rank, but I never really had a problem with that since they kill mooks fine with iron swords and blades and if you've used them consistently indoors, they'll get enough wexp to hit a decent sword level when you actually need nice swords. And Felgus exists and he's awesome.

Just wish Thracia threw enough swordmen for us to capture around midgame-ish. I suffered a severe deficiency with swords around that time, but then again, I was nowhere being close to efficient :P

Machua made good use of Iron Axe~~~~

Edited October 8, 2011 by Luminescent Kitty

[Momo]

In one, one progresses into a more powerful form and betters their training. In the other, one magically learns how to perform combat in a way they never knew before, à la Matrix.

Though I am not a mage/cleric, I do think transitioning from staves to magic is much more sensible than staves to sword, especially when the staff in question isn't used to knock people over the head.

The end result is still a lowly cleric murdering people, which feels just as weird as her using a sword.

[Othin]

The end result is still a lowly cleric murdering people, which feels just as weird as her using a sword.

No, it isn't. As a cleric, she uses magic and has pathetically weak physical strength. As a bishop, that remains true; she just also learns how to use a different type of magic. As a paladin, she apparently forgets how to use that magic and gains considerable strength out of nowhere, and starts running around on the front lines stabbing people.

It may not feel like an important distinction to you, but it's there, and to some of us, it completely ruins the atmosphere of the game and its ability to have believable characters. Most of us, from what it looks like.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Othin

[Icon of Sin]

I don't really understand why everyone is complaining about dismounted units getting swords when they were actually pretty good in FE5. Common use axes were pretty bad outside of the Hero Axe and common use lances were pretty average.

I didn't feel axes were this bad. For one, they're more common than swords and, other than the low accuracy on some of them, they're actually rather reliable and most of them are pretty cheap if you have some funds to buy them, namely the Chapter 8 Hammers which can be useful for most of the game.

Common lances aren't really that great. The Short Lance, quite possibly the most common lance in the game, is downright awful. Javelins are pretty much in the same situation as the Hand Axes, since their accuracy is barely higher.

[Anouleth]

No, it isn't. As a cleric, she uses magic and has pathetically weak physical strength. As a bishop, that remains true; she just also learns how to use a different type of magic. As a paladin, she apparently forgets how to use that magic and gains considerable strength out of nowhere, and starts running around on the front lines stabbing people.

But she doesn't gain considerable strength. Reclass Lena to Paladin and her strength will still be pretty poor. Is the strength she gains "out of nowhere" any more ridiculous than a Bandit gaining 6 speed out of nowhere when he promotes, or Lara somehow becoming weaker when she promotes?

It may not feel like an important distinction to you, but it's there, and to some of us, it completely ruins the atmosphere of the game and its ability to have believable characters. Most of us, from what it looks like.

Most players also don't seem to have any problem with characters somehow "magically" getting stronger when they reclass in FFTA, or in FFX-2, or for that matter, any game with a job or a class system, or when they promote in basically every Fire Emblem.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Anouleth

[Othin]

Comparing the Iron Axe and Iron Sword, the Iron Axe has +3 Mt in exchange for -5 Hit and +4 Wt. When considering that every starting axe user has 11+ base Bld, and Machua, the only character to gain axes on promotion, has 8 Bld minimum after promotion, that sounds like a damn good trade. Even more so when considering supply and demand of the respective weapons, which is far more than enough to make for the Iron Axe's less uses.

But she doesn't gain considerable strength. Reclass Lena to Paladin and her strength will still be pretty poor. Is the strength she gains "out of nowhere" any more ridiculous than a Bandit gaining 6 speed out of nowhere when he promotes, or Lara somehow becoming weaker when she promotes?

Most players also don't seem to have any problem with characters somehow "magically" getting stronger when they reclass in FFTA, or in FFX-2, or for that matter, any game with a job or a class system, or when they promote in basically every Fire Emblem.

As a Bishop, Lena's average Str is 1. Reclassing to Paladin, it jumps to 7, which may be weak for the point in the game where it happens, but it's the same as Jagen's base Str, and more than Ogma or Navarre's base Str. That seems pretty damn strong to me.

Promotions in FE typically appear to involve magic items of some sort, or other spell-like effects. I've never played the FF games you're referencing, but I've played FFV, and the job system in that game involves granting characters abilities through powerful magic crystals, which is certainly a good reason for their stats to change. Reclassing in FE11/12 doesn't appear to have anything of the sort.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Othin

[dondon151]

I didn't feel axes were this bad. For one, they're more common than swords and, other than the low accuracy on some of them, they're actually rather reliable and most of them are pretty cheap if you have some funds to buy them, namely the Chapter 8 Hammers which can be useful for most of the game.

The Iron Axe has 65 hit. Even inaccurate swords like Long Sword and Steel Sword have 65 hit. Every common use axe outside of the Killer Axe (which is obtainable in 17A at the earliest IIRC) and Hero Axe has 65 or fewer hit. This is not quite the definition of reliable that I had in mind.

Hammers are cool and all, but I'd rather kill armors using magic or PCC instead of dropping my AS and having a non-negligible chance of missing 2 consecutive attacks.

Comparing the Iron Axe and Iron Sword, the Iron Axe has +3 Mt in exchange for -5 Hit and +4 Wt. When considering that every starting axe user has 11+ base Bld, and Machua, the only character to gain axes on promotion, has 8 Bld minimum after promotion, that sounds like a damn good trade. Even more so when considering supply and demand of the respective weapons, which is far more than enough to make for the Iron Axe's less uses.

You can't just compare 2 weapons of the same class and conclude something about the weapon types in general. Swords have armor killing weapons that are somewhat more available and in many cases are more reliable than a Hammer. The Killing Edge has a greater availability than Killer Axes (which may not even exist in many playthroughs, or are simply passed up). Silver Swords are around for longer as well. The King Sword and Hero Sword both serve a similar role to the Hero Axe, magic swords are much better than Hand Axes, and Sleep Swords are incredibly useful in recruiting Xavier. I mean, it's true that you need at least C rank to be able to use some of the good swords, but axes don't really have anything special going for them aside from Othin's Pugi and an early Hero Axe.

Edited October 8, 2011 by dondon151

[Anouleth]

As a Bishop, Lena's average Str is 1. Reclassing to Paladin, it jumps to 7, which may be weak for the point in the game where it happens, but it's the same as Jagen's base Str, and more than Ogma or Navarre's base Str.

So what would be the solution? Remove bonuses from changing class entirely? What would even be the point of changing class if it didn't affect your stats?

Edited October 8, 2011 by Anouleth

[Momo]

No, it isn't. As a cleric, she uses magic and has pathetically weak physical strength. As a bishop, that remains true; she just also learns how to use a different type of magic. As a paladin, she apparently forgets how to use that magic and gains considerable strength out of nowhere, and starts running around on the front lines stabbing people.

It may not feel like an important distinction to you, but it's there, and to some of us, it completely ruins the atmosphere of the game and its ability to have believable characters. Most of us, from what it looks like.

Yes, it is. "Hi, I'm lena I'm a virgin healer, get out of my way or I'll fucking murder you" is still the same no matter what promoted class she is.

Also, if you don't like it, you could of course not use it. Absolutely nothing is forcing you to change classes, so why do you want to hold down the game just because you don't want to?

[Othin]

The Iron Axe has 65 hit. Even inaccurate swords like Long Sword and Steel Sword have 65 hit. Every common use axe outside of the Killer Axe (which is obtainable in 17A at the earliest IIRC) and Hero Axe has 65 or fewer hit. This is not quite the definition of reliable that I had in mind.

Hammers are cool and all, but I'd rather kill armors using magic or PCC instead of dropping my AS and having a non-negligible chance of missing 2 consecutive attacks.

List of swords with 75+ Hit:

Short Sword

Slim Sword

Rapier

Silver Sword

Hero Sword

Light Sword

Earth Sword

Doesn't look too much better. Swords are more accurate, but not by much.

So what would be the solution? Remove bonuses from changing class entirely? What would even be the point of changing class if it didn't affect your stats?

The solution is to remove reclassing entirely. Isn't that how we got into this dispute?

Yes, it is. "Hi, I'm lena I'm a virgin healer, get out of my way or I'll fucking murder you" is still the same no matter what promoted class she is.

Also, if you don't like it, you could of course not use it. Absolutely nothing is forcing you to change classes, so why do you want to hold down the game just because you don't want to?

Those are words used by frontline classes. Bishop is not a frontline class.

The option of reclassing greatly degrades the relevant differences between characters both from an atmospheric and gameplay perspective. I chose not to use it the few times I played FE11/12, and I really didn't hold it against the game much, but it's still a ridiculously stupid mechanic.

Is this a good time to mention that in Tear Ring Saga and Berwick Saga, characters that start out as unarmed healers stay unarmed healers?

Edited October 8, 2011 by Othin

[Anouleth]

The solution is to remove reclassing entirely. Isn't that how we got into this dispute?

I think that changing classes is great, though. Promotion has always been a good mechanic: branched promotions are even better, and while I'm not crazy about FE11, I think that reclassing was pretty good in FE12 where you had more choice and the choices were better balanced so as to be meaningful.

[Momo]

Those are words used by frontline classes. Bishop is not a frontline class.

You can kill an entire army with Lena. Fact. Just because you don't want to doesn't make that any less true.

The option of reclassing greatly degrades the relevant differences between characters both from an atmospheric and gameplay perspective. I chose not to use it the few times I played FE11/12, and I really didn't hold it against the game much, but it's still a ridiculously stupid mechanic.

Is this a good time to mention that in Tear Ring Saga and Berwick Saga, characters that start out as unarmed healers stay unarmed healers?

It's an ignorable gameplay mechanic that adds some element of change. That isn't stupid at all. You can't expect IS to make a story and characters worth caring about anyway.

Don't care about Berwick Saga, because it looks pretty damn ugly and uninteresting. Having units that can never enter combat sounds too annoying to bother with, in any case.

[Othin]

I think that changing classes is great, though. Promotion has always been a good mechanic: branched promotions are even better, and while I'm not crazy about FE11, I think that reclassing was pretty good in FE12 where you had more choice and the choices were better balanced so as to be meaningful.

Promotion is good, as it allows for characters to maintain their existing abilities while gaining new ones that make sense for them to learn. Branched promotions, when done well, are even better, as they offer more options and replay value.

Reclassing is an entirely separate matter, and while it may be balanced, it removes any meaning from choosing different characters. As similar as they may be in most FE games, the choice between a Hero and a Paladin is a far more meaningful choice than the choice between a few points of Str and a few points of Spd.

[arvilino]

Is this a good time to mention that in Tear Ring Saga and Berwick Saga, characters that start out as unarmed healers stay unarmed healers?[

You mean apart from the ones from TearRing Saga that turn into practically invincible dragons several times stronger than any character in your army with extremely powerful stats and AoE attacks?

Edited October 8, 2011 by arvilino

[dondon151]

List of swords with 75+ Hit:

Short Sword

Slim Sword

Rapier

Silver Sword

Hero Sword

Light Sword

Earth Sword

Doesn't look too much better. Swords are more accurate, but not by much.

This really doesn't tell me anything. You conveniently neglect the plethora of axes that have 60 or fewer hit. Consider that between E rank Iron Axes and B rank Silver Axes, there are only 2 weapons that exceed 60 hit, and both the Killer Axes and Hero Axe have availability issues of their own. Meanwhile, sword users have a lot more options to work with in the intermediate weapon ranks, and considering how long it takes for weapon ranks to rise in this game, many axe users are stuck with using Iron Axes forever unless they get passed a Hero Axe.

And fine. Let's say that swords are on average more accurate than axes by 10 hit. If a sword user has 85 hit on an enemy and an axe user has 75 hit, the axe user will miss 1 in 2 attacks about 58% more often than the sword user. Hit is not a trivial thing like we're so conditioned to believe.

Edited October 8, 2011 by dondon151

[Anouleth]

Promotion is good, as it allows for characters to maintain their existing abilities while gaining new ones that make sense for them to learn. Branched promotions, when done well, are even better, as they offer more options and replay value.

But your argument that it's not okay for characters to just magically get new weapon types or increases in stats out of nowhere. I can only assume that you feel the same way about Eliwood or Miranda pulling horses out of thin air. Unless you're saying that it's okay for promotion to not make sense as long as it's a game mechanic that you enjoy using.

Reclassing is an entirely separate matter, and while it may be balanced, it removes any meaning from choosing different characters.

I don't think that's true. Lots of Shadow Dragon players assign meaning to picking characters. Just because you don't, you assume that it must be true for all players, but that is just arrogance, assuming that your own feelings are shared by everyone.

I don't think it's an entirely different matter either. Even though reclassing clearly adds something to the game, you poo-poo it because it's not realistic for Lena to be able to reclass and gain a horse and a sword. However, that is no different from what Miranda does when she promotes. Why does it make sense for Miranda and not for Lena? Because you say so? Is it just supposed to be "obvious"? If it's "obvious", then why do many players seem to have no problem with it?

As similar as they may be in most FE games, the choice between a Hero and a Paladin is a far more meaningful choice than the choice between a few points of Str and a few points of Spd.

Not really. Typically, stats are often just as important than class. The difference between Lance and Treck is greater than, say, the difference between Treck and Oujay. I don't think it's really possible to generalise the relative importance of class and stats

[eclipse]

You can kill an entire army with Lena. Fact. Just because you don't want to doesn't make that any less true.

Wait, which game are you playing? In mine, there's these units called mage dragons that take no damage from magic. There's also these other units with 1-2 range weapons, and Lena's not exactly the queen of tankiness or dodging. She might take several enemies down with her, but she's not obliterating armies by herself.

The option of reclassing greatly degrades the relevant differences between characters both from an atmospheric and gameplay perspective. I chose not to use it the few times I played FE11/12, and I really didn't hold it against the game much, but it's still a ridiculously stupid mechanic.

Reclassing is what I love about SD. It means I can use my two favorite Christmas knights - Merric and Radd. It also makes drafting a lot more amusing, as Gordin can go from "OMG I'm never touching that" to "pretty damn useful", and armors aren't relegated to "never used".

[Anouleth]

Reclassing is what I love about SD. It means I can use my two favorite Christmas knights - Merric and Radd.

hahaha, that's funny. FE11: where it's Christmas every day! Although I think that Tomas would be a way better companion for Radd.

[Othin]

You mean apart from the ones from TearRing Saga that turn into practically invincible dragons several times stronger than any character in your army with extremely powerful stats and AoE attacks?

Haven't played much of Tear Ring Saga. Besides them then, yes.

Probably worth noting that the healers in Berwick Saga do have a spell they can use in combat also, but it's used for disabling enemy attacks and can't kill. And it's not even the only defensive "weapon" in Berwick Saga, either (or in TRS, for that matter). Granted, Saphira gets Starlight at the end of the game, but that's functionally her personal spell anyway. Of course, Saphira and Izerna are the only characters locked to Holy magic in the first place, so that really only leaves Izerna, but whatever.

This really doesn't tell me anything. You conveniently neglect the plethora of axes that have 60 or fewer hit. Consider that between E rank Iron Axes and B rank Silver Axes, there are only 2 weapons that exceed 60 hit, and both the Killer Axes and Hero Axe have availability issues of their own. Meanwhile, sword users have a lot more options to work with in the intermediate weapon ranks, and considering how long it takes for weapon ranks to rise in this game, many axe users are stuck with using Iron Axes forever unless they get passed a Hero Axe.

And fine. Let's say that swords are on average more accurate than axes by 10 hit. If a sword user has 85 hit on an enemy and an axe user has 75 hit, the axe user will miss 1 in 2 attacks about 58% more often than the sword user. Hit is not a trivial thing like we're so conditioned to believe.

And plenty of swords have 70 or fewer hit.

Indeed, accuracy matters. But accuracy is not necessarily more important that damage. If you double an enemy, and the axe can kill the enemy in two hits, while the sword needs three, it won't matter if the sword is more likely to land both hits; the axe is more likely to kill. Both weapon types have advantages in combat... and axes have a huge advantage in availability. Other types of axes don't always hold up as well, but you should have all the Iron Axes you need, which are as powerful and as accurate as even Steel Swords, only lighter, cheaper, and again, more available.

Also, you can get a Killer Axe from the Berserker in Ch5, although it would be a pain to do so. I don't know if there are any more until Ch14x, though, where you can get one from the boss. There's another Berserker in Ch6, but I don't remember him having a Killer Axe.

But your argument that it's not okay for characters to just magically get new weapon types or increases in stats out of nowhere. I can only assume that you feel the same way about Eliwood or Miranda pulling horses out of thin air. Unless you're saying that it's okay for promotion to not make sense as long as it's a game mechanic that you enjoy using.

I don't think that's true. Lots of Shadow Dragon players assign meaning to picking characters. Just because you don't, you assume that it must be true for all players, but that is just arrogance, assuming that your own feelings are shared by everyone.

I don't think it's an entirely different matter either. Even though reclassing clearly adds something to the game, you poo-poo it because it's not realistic for Lena to be able to reclass and gain a horse and a sword. However, that is no different from what Miranda does when she promotes. Why does it make sense for Miranda and not for Lena? Because you say so? Is it just supposed to be "obvious"? If it's "obvious", then why do many players seem to have no problem with it?

Not really. Typically, stats are often just as important than class. The difference between Lance and Treck is greater than, say, the difference between Treck and Oujay. I don't think it's really possible to generalise the relative importance of class and stats

Magically gaining new weapons and stats is fine. From what I remember, promotions in FE usually involve some magic item or spell being used, while there was no indication of any such thing in FE11/12. As I said earlier, I have nothing against fantasy elements as long as they make sense out of themselves.

Okay, "any" meaning was an overstatement. It removes most of the gameplay meaning.

Miranda is different because she's one character, with one class change. For all we know, she's had some training with horse riding and sword fighting before. That's much more believable than Lena and Merric and Draug all learning how to use a sword and a spear and an axe and a bow and magic and staffs and horse riding and dragon riding. It's also different because, as I noted above, it's a magically-based promotion, rather than, for all we can see, Lena just trying on some armor and jumping on a horse. Or grabbing an axe and jumping on a dragon; I'm starting to like that example more.

It may have more meaning about which characters will be effective in gameplay, but will it affect how you use them? Often, not as much, and that can be more significant in terms of actual replay value for the game.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Othin

[Momo]

Wait, which game are you playing? In mine, there's these units called mage dragons that take no damage from magic. There's also these other units with 1-2 range weapons, and Lena's not exactly the queen of tankiness or dodging. She might take several enemies down with her, but she's not obliterating armies by herself.

Has nothing to do with whether she's good at it, point is she can do it. Obviously you usually wouldn't send her out to do these things, but the fact that it's an option means a lot.

[eclipse]

hahaha, that's funny. FE11: where it's Christmas every day! Although I think that Tomas would be a way better companion for Radd.

This is 20/20 Merric the Paladin, assuming you reclass him at level 1:

HP     Str    Mag   Skl    Spd    Lck    Def    Res
56.4   12.7   1     27.9   23.3   20.1   23.3   7.9

And this is Radd:

HP     Str    Mag   Skl    Spd    Lck    Def    Res
50.6   25     1     19.2   17.4   16.2   21.4   6

Give Radd four Speedwings and Merric all the Energy Drops!

I enjoy being silly with my reclasses, so that's why I find this amusing. I can understand why it'd seem weird, especially from a story perspective. However, I play SD for gameplay, and this flexibility allows for hilarity like the above. I would definitely like to see that in a new game, but since SD got a lot of flack, I'm willing to compromise with limited reclassing.

[Othin]

Has nothing to do with whether she's good at it, point is she can do it. Obviously you usually wouldn't send her out to do these things, but the fact that it's an option means a lot.

Post a video of Lena as a Bishop soloing Chapter 17, including killing Morzas.

If it's difficult, but possible, you should be able to do that.

[Momo]

Post a video of Lena as a Bishop soloing Chapter 17, including killing Morzas.

If it's difficult, but possible, you should be able to do that.

So you're just going to ignore the obvious and demand a video? I don't feel like playing your game.

[arvilino]

Post a video of Lena as a Bishop soloing Chapter 17, including killing Morzas.

If it's difficult, but possible, you should be able to do that.

No it's not. It'd be impossible even at max stats on Easy mode.

Edited October 8, 2011 by arvilino

[Othin]

So you're just going to ignore the obvious and demand a video? I don't feel like playing your game.

No. I'm saying it's impossible, because it is; Morzas is immune to magic, therefore Lena cannot kill him as a Bishop. If you'd like to claim otherwise, you're going to need to prove it.

As for the rest of the chapter, I don't know; I've never played past the first few chapters of FE11 (or FE12, for that matter). It certainly seems as though it would be quite difficult, at least outside of Normal Mode, and if you know of a way it could be done, I expect a video of the strategy would be quite impressive and fun to watch.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Othin