Mechanics that you want

[Thor Odinson]

When I was playing FE10, I wish that I could just skip it like in FE11. It took so. Fucking. Long.

[Rothene]

**thinks of the mission you have a whole armada of Other cavalier(paladins? I forgot)**

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

I'm actually going to bring up a new point (I think it's new, this thread is LONG):

What in the world should we do to improve LUK? It seems like such an anemic stat....and don't say "add more devil weapons".

Since FE11 and FE12 really toned down evasion, I was hoping for LUK's evasion boost to be brought up to that of SPD and for it to give a crit bonus equal to (LUK/2).

Edited November 26, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Rothene]

AS difference allows one to double...Luck difference allows character to get +20 Crit if you have 4 more luck than enemy? 8]

Although that means enemies will need to have luck growths. And those with low Luck will suffer HARD. But hey, it's almost like Spd stat ya? If the target has a lot of Def/Res and how have very little Atk, the resulting damage is not high anyway. 0x3=0

[Snowy_One]

I did a little bit more thinking and I am now fully of the mindset that Luck isn't 'bad', but rather the things it helps are simply too OPed. Let's take a look.

Luck gives 1 AVO, 1 Hit, and 1 crit avoid per point.

SPD gives 2 AVO and if you have +4, you can double.

SKL gives 2 Hit per point and gives .5 critical as well and often serves as the activator for skills.

40 luck translates into 40 hit, 40 AVO. 40 SPD translates into 80 AVO and a higher chance to dodge. 40 SKL means 80 hit and a 20% critical chance.

If you want a unit to dodge, you try to level up their SPD, if you want a unit to hit, you level up their SKL. It takes twice as many level-ups in luck to equal either stat.

See why Luck is UP? If you wanted 40 base Hit/AVO, you could get it just by leveling in SKL/SPD 20 times, but you would have to level up 40 times to get the same effect with luck. This isn't to mention that the unit who leveled up only 20 times would also double much more and crit more and activate skills more.

You could nerf SPD. It wouldn't 'fix' the problem, but it would help. You could give Luck a .5/.25 crit per stat, or use it for skill activation. Both would fix the problem. IMO, the real problem here is that it simply takes too long for a high luck growth to be relative to anything. 40 level-ups (basically going from 1 to 20/20 at a 100% growth to provide less than what SPD/SKL can give in just 20 with the same growth. Maybe luck needs a higher growth rate. I'm really not sure. It is the scrappy stat ATM for sure though.

[Rothene]

But Snowy...Luck increases BOTH Hit and Avo!

In terms of raw numbers when you look at it as Hit vs Avo, Luck actually splits their value evenly between Hit and Avo.

Assume you have a 50 Hit weapon and 3 characters.(we're just looking at it from a Hit/Avo benefit perspective)

Character A 20Skill, 0Spd, 0Luck

Character B 0Skill, 20Spd, 0Luck

Character C 0Skill, 0Spd, 20Luck

Character A will have 50% chance to Hit Character B while vice versa.

Character C will have only 30% chance to hit character B and 70% chance to hit character A

Character A will have 70% Chance of hitting character C while Character B has only 30% chance of hitting character C.

Character A has 90% chance of hitting Character A

Character B has 10% Chance of hitting Character B

Character C has 50% Chance of Hitting Character C

Notice when the exact value of stats are equal between those 3 stats, characters have somewhat equal chance of hitting each other? Luck isn't really weak from a Hit/Avo perspective IMO. It's just the secondary function of it is not as stellar as the other two. Doubling is very impactful to damage output, Critting is also impactful to damage output. Negating crit when enemies have nearly non existent crit rates on the other hand, is not too appreciated since with proper positioning and tactics, you're not likely to worry about enemy offense too much.

You generally attack with hopes of not being counter attacked, and you position units for minimal damage received by enemies. Most of the time Crit from enemies is such a low value that Crit Eva becomes underwhelming. 'Good' stats happen to focus on offensive performance because if you're doing it right, you usually kill enough enemies to not be afraid of counterattacks.

[CrashGordon94]

Well, the crit evasion thing could be easy to fix. Just put up a reasonable number (i.e. Don't overcook this) of enemy SMs/Snipers/Berserkers/Killer weapon users.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Well, the crit evasion thing could be easy to fix. Just put up a reasonable number (i.e. Don't overcook this) of enemy SMs/Snipers/Berserkers/Killer weapon users.

I think that creates more problems than it solves. Can you imagine a ton of H3 FE12/H5 FE11 enemies running around everything with killers? /shudder

I, for one, don't like playing the "Will you be OHKO'd?" game of chance; it's alright if it's one or two strategically placed guys that you can nullify if you're smart, but you can't throw enough in there to make LUK ultra-useful without screwing over gameplay in the process.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Rothene]

Maybe overall increase crit chance through changes to the formula, but lower crit multiplier is in order?

[arvilino]

Luck already is useful. You'll find that the characters with not much luck in FE12(Sirius,Ellerean,Michalis) face non-zero critical hit ratings from most normal enemies, whereas characters like Shiida, Mallaesia and Catria can safetly go against Killer Weapon users, Toron Sages, Snipers and Beserkers the game sends at you to avoid OHKO criticals in H3, whereas other characters can't only due to their lower Luck.

[Rothene]

I had the impression Shiida and Catria had super awesome growths in Skill and Spd as well to make them potent...and Shiida has Wingspear for the occasion. Yeah, Catria has hax growths...

[Paperblade]

Due to the way crit is calculated in FE12, Ice Dragons, Berserkers, and Snipers regularly had crit rates high enough that you want a double digit amount of Luck, which some characters have a bit of trouble reaching.

[Othin]

Maybe overall increase crit chance through changes to the formula, but lower crit multiplier is in order?

FE5 did this, oddly enough by making CEV only Luck/2 so it was harder to have enough Luck to completely nullify an enemy's Crit. Of course, in that game, scrolls were a better method of avoiding the chance altogether...

Looking at FE12's formula based on what Paperblade said, that looks like it would indeed yield similar results through a different method.

[CrashGordon94]

I think that creates more problems than it solves. Can you imagine a ton of H3 FE12/H5 FE11 enemies running around everything with killers? /shudder

I, for one, don't like playing the "Will you be OHKO'd?" game of chance; it's alright if it's one or two strategically placed guys that you can nullify if you're smart, but you can't throw enough in there to make LUK ultra-useful without screwing over gameplay in the process.

Well, that's why I said "REASONABLE" number and specifically said "Don't overcook this", but the other suggestions given above were really cool too.

[Snowy_One]

But Snowy...Luck increases BOTH Hit and Avo!

In terms of raw numbers when you look at it as Hit vs Avo, Luck actually splits their value evenly between Hit and Avo.

Assume you have a 50 Hit weapon and 3 characters.(we're just looking at it from a Hit/Avo benefit perspective)

Character A 20Skill, 0Spd, 0Luck

Character B 0Skill, 20Spd, 0Luck

Character C 0Skill, 0Spd, 20Luck

Character A will have 50% chance to Hit Character B while vice versa.

Character C will have only 30% chance to hit character B and 70% chance to hit character A

Character A will have 70% Chance of hitting character C while Character B has only 30% chance of hitting character C.

Character A has 90% chance of hitting Character A

Character B has 10% Chance of hitting Character B

Character C has 50% Chance of Hitting Character C

Notice when the exact value of stats are equal between those 3 stats, characters have somewhat equal chance of hitting each other? Luck isn't really weak from a Hit/Avo perspective IMO. It's just the secondary function of it is not as stellar as the other two. Doubling is very impactful to damage output, Critting is also impactful to damage output. Negating crit when enemies have nearly non existent crit rates on the other hand, is not too appreciated since with proper positioning and tactics, you're not likely to worry about enemy offense too much.

You generally attack with hopes of not being counter attacked, and you position units for minimal damage received by enemies. Most of the time Crit from enemies is such a low value that Crit Eva becomes underwhelming. 'Good' stats happen to focus on offensive performance because if you're doing it right, you usually kill enough enemies to not be afraid of counterattacks.

The problem with that example it that it is assuming an environment where a character would have 0 growths in two stats, which doesn't happen. I might be much more convinced if you re-ran that with a 10 in the two stats that you had at 0 there.

[General Banzai]

Luck's fine where it is. A stat called "Luck" should NOT be equally as important as actual physical statistics. It's a nice bonus to have high luck but not game-changing.

[Cysx]

As I said earlier, luck would probably be fixed if it gave a really low amount of crit. It would be quite handy, while staying logical(if you can evade, hit, and lower your odds of taking a critical hit in the face because of luck, I really don't see how landing a critical hit thanks to luck wouldn't fit).

Critical avoidance seems very important to me, in a game where dead characters won't ever come back. Because if arena abusing taught me something, it's that a 1%(well, even lower thanks to double rng, but still)chance of losing a character is already pretty huge.

40 level-ups(basically going from 1 to 20/20

That would be 38 level-ups, actually:3

By the way, I'd really like to see trial maps coming back in FE13. I liked those.

[Snowy_One]

I highly disagree, especially if your reason for objection is its name. What if it had been named 'speed' or 'sexiness' or 'rubber chickens'? Would that have suddenly made it more or less valuable just because the name had been changed? Besides, the only stat that could even be considered of 'less value' is RES and even that seems unlikely.

Edit: This would mean Micaiah would be definitively one of the sexiest characters in FE10... which is something I approve of. But also... OH MY GOD IT WOULD MEAN MEG IS SEXY! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited November 26, 2011 by Snowy_One

[Othin]

Not all stats are equal in equal quantities. Is there a problem with that?

Edited November 26, 2011 by Othin

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Not all stats are equal in equal quantities. Is there a problem with that?

Yeah, mainly because, if you ever look at the later FEs where they try to balance character growths by total/sum percentages (in FE7's case, it's like roughly 220-330% total growths, the lower end being prepromotes and the higher end being Nino), they always seem to make the assumption that all stats (even HP) are roughly equal in value. As long as LUK sucks in comparison per point, then characters that have a high LUK growth and standard total growths will typically have combat problems if the LUK growth takes from SPD/MAG/STR or another high-value stat. On a side note, this phenomenon also partially explains why warriors (who have high HP growths, often at the expense of a much more valuable stat) tend to suck in GBA games.

The only high LUK characters I like off the top of my head in FE7 are Florina (LUK isn't quite so crappy when you have high SPD, since each point of AVO is more valuable than the last and that means high SPD tends to artificially inflate LUK's value as a stat), Wil (who I like for reasons completely unrelated to his LUK, and he'd be much better if some of his LUK growth went to SPD growth), and I think Nino (who has high growths all around).

Yeah, that's why there's a problem with that. No stat should suck in comparison to others, anyways...it's not good design and saying "well, LUK shouldn't be as good because it's called luck" seems like a lazy cop-out.

OH MY GOD IT WOULD MEAN MEG IS SEXY! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm...too sexy for my shirt? Too sexy, it hurts? /blinded

Edited November 26, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Momo]

Not all stats are equal in equal quantities. Is there a problem with that?

There is when one stat has no real reason to exist.

[Anouleth]

There is when one stat has no real reason to exist.

I don't feel like Luck makes no difference in the game. There is a significant difference between the characters that have it and those that don't, such as say, Clarine and Saul.

[eclipse]

There is when one stat has no real reason to exist.

I think there's a gray area between "absolutely equal" and "is so insignificant that it shouldn't exist".

[Thor Odinson]

Clarine's avo is ridiculous if trained.

I think luck could do with a boost, but it doesn't have to be on equal grounds with something like speed or strength. After all, concrete parameters should affect a fight more than sheer luck. If you think about it, luck does it's job. That slight decrease in enemy hitrate could make a difference due to, well, RN luck. I think that Luck should factor into critical activations, as well. Before you say that "but luck would factor in both crit and cEv now!", keep in mind that each character has a different luck stat, so it would still be different.

@Snowy's argument: Words have meanings. The stat is named as such for a reason. You don't see defense being used to calculate how many times you get to hit the enemy, do you? If a stat is named sexiness, it should be totally useless in battle. Unless it suddenly has the effect of distracting the enemy. But that'd just be ridiculous.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Luminescent Blade

[arvilino]

The impact of Luck mostly occurs at the extreme ends of the stat. Characters on the low end(Kent,Knoll) face critical percentages very often and have poor evade, characters like Priscilla or Ninian almost never face criticals and have very good evade. It's especially useful due to the double RNG determining hit as an extra X amount of luck can lower true hit by more than 1% per point.