Mechanics that you want

[CrashGordon94]

Here's what it will accomplish: You'll have a rough idea how characters will turn out! Obviously it's a roll of the dice but it's pretty obvious that that guy you want to use who has a 75% Speed growth is LIKELY to end up being pretty fast! Wouldn't that be a cool thing to know?

A better question is what does hiding them accomplish? NOTHING!! NOTHING AT ALL!! No matter how trivial you think displaying growths would be, it would amount to SOMETHING at the end of the day, and making another screen to show them would take maybe five minutes TOPS! And doing so would give helpful information and save people like Vincent some work while not doing this would succeed at nothing but bewildering players and putting more work on people like Vincent.

And would it really hurt you guys if they WERE displayed? Nope. So why argue against it? Do you just instinctively oppose everything I say no matter how much sense it makes or do you just like to make thing more secretive and nebulous for other people for no rational reason whatsoever?

Also I refuse to calm down, if you want me to calm down you're free to concede your point.

[Othin]

Some people enjoy the mystery. Anyone who doesn't can look up the information on their own easily. Where's the problem?

[dondon151]

WAH WAH WAAAH!!!!!

It's not a new thing for games, especially RPGs, to hide information. Pokemon doesn't tell you base stats, EVs, or IVs. FFT doesn't tell you how many stats a character gains on level up depending on their job. FE doesn't tell you the exact nature of terrain penalties, or how much WEXP you need to go from B to A, or other things of that sort. Please stop being a crybaby and spare us the trouble of censuring you.

Edited November 28, 2011 by dondon151

[CrashGordon94]

If they like the "mystery" they're free not to open the statscreen, problem solved!

And it's not easy to look up growths at the start, they have to be FUCKING HACKED!

[I.M. Gei]

Ah, yes, Crash, IS should cater to your needs over the needs of anyone who doesn't agree with your notion of "honesty."

Edited November 28, 2011 by Black★Rock Shooter

[Thor Odinson]

You know what? You want growths displayed? Why don't you program it yourself and see how much time it takes to do one? If you do it in 5 minutes, kudos to you, now you can have your game with growths screens. And the rest of us don't really care. I don't really want it, either.

Five minutes tops, my ass.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Luminescent Blade

[Othin]

If they like the "mystery" they're free not to open the statscreen, problem solved!

And it's not easy to look up growths at the start, they have to be FUCKING HACKED!

Playing the game without such basic information as is listed on the stat screen (and restraining oneself from doing so, even by accident, if not knowing that the information is there in the first place) is far more of a hassle than searching serenesforest.net or any of the hundreds of other sites that list character growths in every FE guide and looking at the stats that are listed there months before the game is even released in America.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Othin

[Life]

For the record, unless I'm debating something FE based, I've never once had to look at a unit's growths. Ever.

Crash, you're annoying. Shut up already.

[Aethereal]

By exposing more information than is necessary, you take out a large part of the casual gaming experience. A lot of people play RPGs casually to be immersed in the activity, and play for the sake of goofing around, instead of methodically mapping things out. When you expose percentages on growths for characters, and other things of that nature(Like the combat formula, and exactly what each stat does towards it), a casual gamer's reaction could go from "Cool, this guy is fast and strong, but has light armor" to: "Well, this is just a math problem.". Yes, ultimately, it IS a math problem, but the perception of the person who isn't exposed to a bunch of numbers, percentages, and formulas can be very different from that of somebody who IS exposed to it.

For those of us(Myself included) who want to know the formulas and growths, either because we're past the simple joy of goofing around and playing a game and want to challenge ourselves, or we just enjoy the planning that comes with knowing formulas ahead of time: The information is pretty readily available. Obviously some one has to hack into stuff (Although, iirc the nintendo guide books have all the growths available, so the information will be out and online pretty damn fast anyways.) and that kinda sucks, I guess, but nobody is forced to do that, and it is not a necessary thing to enjoy and experience the game.

TL;DR: Some one who likes knowing the growths can still enjoy the game if it is not displayed, while some one who likes to not know the growths may stop enjoying the game if they are displayed.

Me having to spend 2 minutes googling my answers<<<<<<<Some one else enjoying the game.

[CrashGordon94]

Ah, yes, Crash, IS should cater to your needs over the needs of anyone who doesn't agree with your notion of "honesty."

Except that doing that doesn't force anything on the other people, I'm not going to force them to look at the growths. Plus, if they "cater to my needs", everyone who's not interested can just not scroll to that specific page on the statscreen but if they're hidden then I have to wait until the game's hacked and rely on a guide.

TL;DR: Some one who likes knowing the growths can still enjoy the game if it is not displayed, while some one who likes to not know the growths may stop enjoying the game if they are displayed.

Funny, it's actually the other way around. If complex information is exposed, this hypothetical casual can just ignore it, but if it's hidden then you have to have a guide to get it.

[Othin]

A casual player will look at whatever information the game offers them. They will not take the effort to decide preemptively that certain information will be detrimental to their gaming experience and persuade themselves to ignore it every time they get curious.

And Crash, I just explained that you don't have to wait, because the games are hacked and the information is on sites like Serenes before the games are even released in America, and perhaps even before they are even released in Japan. There is no waiting involved, so cease posting impossible claims about problems you've never had. Growths are always well-known; hell, they were the only detailed Berwick Saga information I didn't have to search through some Japanese site to find, since they're on a shitty Gamefaqs guide.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Othin

[CrashGordon94]

If the numbers bore them, they'll most likely ignore the numbers.

And I shouldn't have to look in a guide in the first place.

Now, stop arguing against me, doing it my way would only make the game better. Hidden stats are always a sick and awful idea, no matter what.

[Lord Glenn]

If the numbers bore them, they'll most likely ignore the numbers.

And I shouldn't have to look in a guide in the first place.

Now, stop arguing against me, doing it my way would only make the game better. Hidden stats are always a sick and awful idea, no matter what.

The series isn't catered to the majority of players found here on SF; the games are catered to the average, new player for the most part. As such, Intelligent Systems is presumably creating an atmosphere where people who don't know anything about the characters (who will show up in what chapters, each character's stats and growths, etc.) can jump in, play through chapters, and determine based on how the Random Number Generator molds their units as to who they want to use for their team. Furthermore, unless you were to add an entire new page of statistics to the unit info windows (which is a plausible solution, though even RD's 4 pages was a bit annoying so adding more would be :/), you'd have to add the growths on the same page as the statistics, which would only make that page absurdly crowded.

[Anouleth]

Except that doing that doesn't force anything on the other people, I'm not going to force them to look at the growths. Plus, if they "cater to my needs", everyone who's not interested can just not scroll to that specific page on the statscreen but if they're hidden then I have to wait until the game's hacked and rely on a guide.

And what is the game supposed to do? Just tell the player "hey don't look at that screen if you don't want to spoil the game"? That's ridiculous.

There's no need to be facetious, Crash. You know that giving the player too much information can be a bad thing, so just admit it already and we can go on with our lives.

Funny, it's actually the other way around. If complex information is exposed, this hypothetical casual can just ignore it, but if it's hidden then you have to have a guide to get it.

Yes, the game will not tell you everything there is to know.

Really, this is only a problem with "trap" characters, of which there aren't that many... I can only think of Ronan, Marty, Dorcas, and Lowen as characters that have growths lower than you would expect from their bases. And prepromotes, obviously, but the game usually warns you about them :P

[Dark Sage]

The game doesn't warn you about Lucius and he's a trap .

[Aethereal]

Funny, it's actually the other way around.

Ah, so you can't enjoy the game without the growths displayed? Because that IS what I said, that you can still enjoy the game, while some other person may stop enjoying it. If you indeed can't enjoy a Fire Emblem game without the growths displayed in game, I'm very sorry you've had such a not-fun time playing as many fire emblem runs as you've had.

If the numbers bore them, they'll most likely ignore the numbers.

This isn't true, or the point. The numbers being there can not only make the game feel less immersive and less like role playing, and more like a math equation, but it can do so subconsciously. Every one in the world is affected by things that they don't quite realize affects them, and subtly influences their experience, and games are no different.

if it's hidden then you have to have a guide to get it.

And I shouldn't have to look in a guide in the first place.

Just googled "Fire Emblem 7 Growth Rates" as an example of how long it would take to find, took me about 1 minute. Is that really such a big deal? (Also, unsurprisingly, Serenes Forest was the second result, and the first good one)

Now, stop arguing against me, doing it my way would only make the game better. Hidden stats are always a sick and awful idea, no matter what.

"No matter what" is a pretty close minded view on a topic as subjective as what makes a game good. =| People are explaining reasons why it wouldn't be as good, even if you don't agree saying "no matter what" is just dismissing the entire conversation. Why have a conversation if your mind is so made up you won't listen to others' reasoning?

[Rewjeo]

Can I just say I feel like a lot of people are going against this idea just because it's Crash's? Sure, he's being rather obnoxious, but what exactly is so bad about me being able to see how well a unit is (likely) going to grow?

A lot of what I'm seeing is related to casual players, and I have to ask: if the player is playing casually to begin with and is just using units they like, are they really going to go to the effort of calculating who to use now that we know their growths? What are the chances they'll even understand exactly what they mean? Who started FE knowing anything about the stats beyond, like, more STR=more damage? Your casual player would probably just look at that and see that, hey, this unit will grow more STR than this unit. And then they'll continue to use units just because they like them. Also, I don't see how going to SF to find it takes less energy than not taking the time to focus on that screen. One is actively doing something. The other is simply not putting energy into doing something.

People have also played the precedence card. So what other games hide information? That doesn't mean telling me how well my unit will grow is a BAD idea. Once upon a time you weren't told how you would do in combat in FE. In a lot of games, you STILL aren't. Does that make telling you your hit/crit/damage is a bad idea? No.

[CrashGordon94]

The series isn't catered to the majority of players found here on SF; the games are catered to the average, new player for the most part. As such, Intelligent Systems is presumably creating an atmosphere where people who don't know anything about the characters (who will show up in what chapters, each character's stats and growths, etc.) can jump in, play through chapters, and determine based on how the Random Number Generator molds their units as to who they want to use for their team. Furthermore, unless you were to add an entire new page of statistics to the unit info windows (which is a plausible solution, though even RD's 4 pages was a bit annoying so adding more would be :/), you'd have to add the growths on the same page as the statistics, which would only make that page absurdly crowded.

I was actually suggesting the extra page.

I still can't believe you guys are defending this bullshit! Hiding such important stuff from the player is a BAD THING!! I really hope the other sectors of the FE fanbase can actually see that...

[Aethereal]

Can I just say I feel like a lot of people are going against this idea just because it's Crash's? Sure, he's being rather obnoxious, but what exactly is so bad about me being able to see how well a unit is (likely) going to grow?

There's a page or two of people saying why, and I don't really know Crash, so I don't think that's influencing my perspective.

I still can't believe you guys are defending this bullshit! Hiding such important stuff from the player is a BAD THING!! I really hope the other sectors of the FE fanbase can actually see that...

People have given reasons as to why they think "hiding" is not so bad. You should give thorough responses to specific points instead of saying it's bullshit.

[Momo]

You know what? You want growths displayed? Why don't you program it yourself and see how much time it takes to do one? If you do it in 5 minutes, kudos to you, now you can have your game with growths screens. And the rest of us don't really care. I don't really want it, either.

Five minutes tops, my ass.

Are you saying it takes a significantly long time to display numbers on a screen?

Tbh I would enjoy being able to see growths.

[Thor Odinson]

Do you do the coding for the game? I don't think you do. I will concede the point if Yeti can do it in 5 minutes, since he's actually reprogramming the entire engine atm on a different platform, and so he should have the most knowledge of it.

I also don't want to see growths ingame, as unless I'm doing specific calculations (and even then those are more of gameplay formula stuff), I like to just let my characters grow as they like. I don't want some strict probability pre-influencing my opinions on characters. I don't want to restrict which pages I end up on in the screen, either.

I just think a game is a game and shouldn't be turned into a whole mathfest unless it's for educational purposes. And this is coming from someone who likes math. Enough to double major in it.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Luminescent Blade

[dondon151]

People have also played the precedence card. So what other games hide information? That doesn't mean telling me how well my unit will grow is a BAD idea.

Think about this for a second. If hiding this information were such a bad idea, then other games wouldn't do it anymore in response to player feedback. A lot of casual players (i.e., those who don't frequent this website) don't play Fire Emblem in order to calculate expected stats and whatnot. Games don't withhold information from the player because they're misanthropic; they do it because it's more accessible. I think this point has been iterated enough times.

Once upon a time you weren't told how you would do in combat in FE. In a lot of games, you STILL aren't. Does that make telling you your hit/crit/damage is a bad idea? No.

Fire Emblem is a game very heavily reliant on individual calculations. If you were to play a more traditional RPG like, I don't know, Super Mario RPG, the game doesn't tell you your expected damage when you use an attack, and it doesn't tell you the enemies' remaining HP, and it doesn't tell you how much damage you'll take if you don't block or half block. You're supposed to just get a feel for these things. In Fire Emblem, the permanent death mechanic means that the game can't just hide a bunch of numbers and expect the player to be satisfied with guessing when it might spontaneously result in the death of his favorite character.

Furthermore, let's say that IS were to implement a "growth rates" section of the status screen. I'm willing to bet that the format of choice, instead of listing growth rates in percentages, would instead just be a series of nondescript bars whose lengths approximately correlate to that of the growth rates. Perhaps that will be helpful; I don't know; but there's no way IS is going to outright tell you that Palla has a 5% base spd growth.

[Momo]

Do you do the coding for the game? I don't think you do. I will concede the point if Yeti can do it in 5 minutes, since he's actually reprogramming the entire engine atm on a different platform, and so he should have the most knowledge of it.

It'd be the exact same thing as the stat screen, friend.

[Thor Odinson]

If it takes more than 5 minutes to type up the code to solve a quadratic formula with both roots, displaying those numbers will take longer.

[Momo]

If they can have a screen that displays a unit's stats already, I'm pretty sure they can have a screen that also displays their stats.