Mechanics that you want

[Othin]

Edit: checking the Berwick Saga pages, there's alot more weapons and items than there is in Fire Emblem games and there's even materials for crafting. So the need for more than 8(through the bag) per character makes sense for that game. It would be a bit excessive for Fire Emblem.

Indeed. Berwick Saga has no simple go-to "strong" weapon, but many degrees of weapons of increasing effectiveness to use, depending on how rare of a weapon you're willing to expend on a specific situation. The emphasis of accuracy and other capabilities as opposed to just raw power and range also contribute, although range is less often considered in Berwick Saga due to the general lack of effective throwing weapons. The existence of two equipment slots also contributes; knights generally need to carry multiple shields due to the shields having low durability and archers have to carry a variety of arrows based on the kind of damage they want to do and occasionally other effects, since good arrows, just like good weapons, are limited in quantity, so it's unwise to waste better arrows when not necessary. And then there's the lack of an official storage, which seems like a needless change from the previous games, but it makes it important for characters to keep inventory space clear for dropped and captured items. Actually, that was the original reason I started using the bags after dismissing them (leaving them in the base as a makeshift storage), but that was early in the game.

An example of those "other capabilities" I noted above: Elbert is a Sergeant Knight, using Swords, Spears, and S Shields - basically a Cavalier; I'm not really sure why that class was replaced with four identical classes, but whatever. For weapons, one would want to equip Elbert with good swords for the higher accuracy and sometimes higher base power, and spears for the higher damage on a charge. The accuracy difference isn't too big with the weapons themselves (typically 10 points, which is still substantial when you're not getting near 100% accuracy), but Berwick Saga has an interesting cross of weapon levels and the Skill stat. Elbert has higher Sword Skill than Spear Skill and continues to increase it much faster throughout the game even with equal use of the two weapon types, resulting in a much more notable accuracy difference. Meanwhile, he still needs to use Spears enough to raise his Spear Skill to 20 in order to promote, which with his low growth will take a while. So with all of those differences, he needs to have access to both common and rare swords and spears at any given time to use whatever will work best for the current situation and the long term... and shields, and healing, and inventory space. So it all adds up to well over 8 slots.

But as you noted, this isn't really relevant to the other games, as they don't tend to place much emphasis on those kinds of decisions - an unfortunate loss from them, I feel, but oh well.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Othin

[Dark Sage]

Fin isn't a Jeigan. He is a powerful mounted unit that joins early and is a little bit higher leveled than many of your units, but if that makes him a Jeigan, than Oscar is a Jeigan.

The real Jeigans are Eveyl and Dagda, who are the oldest and most experienced members of the group. They start promoted and fill the traditional role too. I'd say they're pretty balanced. Neither are mounted and Eveyl is unavailable from part of Chapter 5 to the Final chapter (and only if you completed a gaiden chapter to get her back). Dagda is also temporarily unavailable and also requires the completion of a gaiden chapter to get back, but he's only unavailable from 4 to 8x.

Archetypes are bullshit anyway.

[Othin]

Eyvel fills a Jeigan-like role in her first few chapters, but her long absence makes her not fit well overall. It's really between Fin and Dagda: Dagda is higher leveled, but Fin is a knight and his connection to Leaf is more typical of the archetype. So either one can fit depending on the weight given to the story aspect of the archetype.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Othin

[Momo]

Fin isn't a Jeigan. He is a powerful mounted unit that joins early and is a little bit higher leveled than many of your units, but if that makes him a Jeigan, than Oscar is a Jeigan.

Oscar's pretty bad at combat for a while, he's definitely not the same as Fin. FE5's the only game with this weird setup of characters, so making comparisons lik this don't really add up.

[General Banzai]

Archetypes are bullshit anyway.

Not at all from a plot standpoint, and if we look at Fin's role in that kind of context, he's the Jeigan of the game (technically an Oifaye but the only real difference between a Jeigan and an Oifaye is age, usually).

[Ϲharlie]

Fin isn't a Jeigan. He is a powerful mounted unit that joins early and is a little bit higher leveled than many of your units, but if that makes him a Jeigan, than Oscar is a Jeigan.

Calling Fin a Jeigan makes perfect sense. Story-wise, both are veteran knights who first served their respective lord's father before becoming the lord's protector. That gives him more common ground with Jeigan than Eyvel or Dagda could ever hope to have. It may also be worth pointing out that Fin's base stats are more or less identical to Alan, another "Jeigan character".

[Snowy_One]

Wouldn't that make him a Olifay though if he ends up good and usable? Jiegan's usually end up pretty sub-par compared to the rest of the units on the team. I'm actually a bit curious now as to if people are so aware of the Jiegan archtype or are getting so genre-savvy as to intentionally avoid them resulting in the makers staying away from Jiegan's because they know everyone expects them.

[CrashGordon94]

Well yeah, but people avoiding them would be a good thing. Actually, it'd probably be better to just take 'em out.

[Ϲharlie]

Wouldn't that make him a Olifay though if he ends up good and usable? Jiegan's usually end up pretty sub-par compared to the rest of the units on the team.

There really is no Oifaye "sub type". Stats don't matter to things like this. Would you say that Lance isn't based on Abel just because Lance has better skill and speed growth than Alan while Abel has slightly worse skill and speed growth than Cain?

It's also interesting to note that Oifaye actually ends up a bit underwhelming compared to most of the characters in the second generation.

[Thor Odinson]

@ Crash: Why are you one to say how people should play? Don't like Jeigans? Don't use them. You don't even play LTC, so why should you care? While I do thinks Jeigans/Oifeys/whatever in the future games shouldn't be as OP'd as Seth or Titania, as much as I love them, Jeigans are useful, especially on hard modes. You probably don't care 'cuz you don't play hard mode, but I'd like that bit of push earlygame at the very least, and if I like their character enough, use them throughout the game. I love FE6, but one thing that bothered me was that after chapter 13, Marcus becomes pretty unusable as a combat unit unless serious RNG blessing was involved. And I fucking love Marcus. I think he's the man, but I can't use him past a certain point? That sucks.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Luminescent Blade

[CrashGordon94]

@Lumi: Then wouldn't you like them just as much if they were ordinary units? I'm sure you'd still like Seth if he were just a pretty good Cavalier.

[Thor Odinson]

I have a preference for prepromoted units tbh. A cavalier isn't as cool as a paladin. Also being unpromoted would not suit his character, as he is a general.

Also FE8 is a game for when I feel like curbstomping. Even if Seth is taken out entirely, there's still not much difficulty.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Luminescent Blade

[CrashGordon94]

Then I can't reason with you. Also, no matter how much you like it being able to easily curbstomp a game with a single member of the wide cast is OBJECTIVELY poor game design.

[Vorena]

For an example of an over powered character decimating an entire play-through, see the game "Ninety-Nine Nights".

[Snowy_One]

N3 was a hack-and-slash game though. The characters were intentionally made OP'ed. When I created Esphyr, I had to cut a lot of the source material and power that Inphyy originally had in order to bring her down to even a somewhat realistic power-level. In doing so I unwittingly made her a rip of Claymore, but I didn't even know what that was at the time... Anyways, N3's 'average power level' was incredibly high. Even a little girl could decimate entire armies in that game (tyurru kicked ass).

As to the Jiegan stuff, this is my primary problem with the current Jiegans/Olifays/whatevers. They rock hard in the early game then end up only slightly below average, if at all. Seth is so OP'ed that choosing not to use him results in an entire tier apparently, and I wouldn't argue that. Titania starts the game as a OP'ed fighter and, endgame, is only SLIGHTLY weaker than the other paladins if they reached 20/20. When I first played FE9 I intentionally avoided her just because according to my friend she made the game too easy.

This is part of the reason I suggested the party-split. Even if the Jiegan is a god-warrior, he can benefit only one party at most. Incidentally, splitting the group up means that each unit gets brought more in line as weaker units are needed to plug holes when they would not be otherwise used while strong units only benefit one party at most.

[General Banzai]

For an example of an over powered character decimating an entire play-through, see the game "Ninety-Nine Nights".

Or see FE4 gen 1.

The only real distinction between an Oifaye and a Jeigan from an archetypal standpoint is that an Oifaye is younger, whereas the Jeigan tends to be old or at the end of his days. So I guess Fin Seth etc would be Oifayes but it's really just a sub-categorization of the larger archetype which is almost undeniably present in every Fire Emblem game.

However I would like to see a Jeigan like Fin in the new game. I feel it would allow us to have a balanced, usable in an ordinary context unit who didn't break the game and wasn't all that abusable. However in general I would like to see a game with more terrain (like FERD) so that cavaliers don't dominate. Of course, then we have to contend with flying units dominating... But at least flying units have more exploitable weaknesses (bows). I feel like if Haar were still weak against bows it would make him much harder to use in several of the Part 3 chapters.

[Othin]

I've never seen the problem with just referring to the whole group as Jeigans, with some of them being older and some of them being younger.

[Thor Odinson]

Then I can't reason with you. Also, no matter how much you like it being able to easily curbstomp a game with a single member of the wide cast is OBJECTIVELY poor game design.

I never said FE8 was good game design, did I? I said it was FUN. And Seth is not the only factor that FE8's game design has issues.

Even without Seth, FE8 has laughable enemy stats and the option to grind forever without penalty beyond buying weapons. Seth would not curbstomp FE8 /this/ much if the enemies are actually anything competent. He'd still be the best, but now you actually have to use other characters. The latter I just ignore, like many others.

I'd say if it weren't for FE7's annoying forced tutorial, FE8 would be arguably the best introduction game to the series since it's so hard to fuck up in that game. It's definitely not balanced, but it's easy enough that should a new player get horrible level ups on his growth units, even without a fraction of dondon's skills he would be able to fall back on Seth, since it's pretty hard to fuck Seth up. Thus, less rage induced. Then he or she will graduate on to harder games, like Thracia 776.

This is not to say I want another jeigan /as/ powerful as Seth or Titania, since FE8 is fine as an intro-level game as it is. A jeigan that's not as OP'd but still usable throughout the game is optimal, IMO. And like many others before me had said, Fin and Marcus(7) fits that case.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Luminescent Blade

[dondon151]

FE7 Marcus is pretty OP throughout the entire game.

FE6 Marcus is still usable past midgame on NM. On HM he's relegated to transportation and potshots after chapter 13, but my personal opinion is that he's rather well-balanced in that game. Same thing for like, FEDS Jagen on H5.

Edited November 12, 2011 by dondon151

[Thor Odinson]

Most of us don't play at the same speed you do, you see~

And he's not as OP as, say, Seth. I want to use a Marcus as a combat unit though. As much as I didn't like FE7, at least it lets me do that on the hardest mode. And I don't even play FE6 NM anymore.

Plus I like OP //shot

Edited November 12, 2011 by Luminescent Blade

[Dark Sage]

Dagda's also a pretty balanced Jeigan IMO. His bases and weapon ranks are excellent and you can patch up some of his weaker stats with scrolls and a stat booster or too, but he doesn't have a horse and his Charge ability can be as much of a liability for him as it is a benefit since it can get him hit by ballistae and siege tomes twice. He's usable lategame and is usable throughout the whole game, but he does have plenty of issues to hold him back.

[Anouleth]

Dagda's also a pretty balanced Jeigan IMO. His bases and weapon ranks are excellent and you can patch up some of his weaker stats with scrolls and a stat booster or too, but he doesn't have a horse and his Charge ability can be as much of a liability for him as it is a benefit since it can get him hit by ballistae and siege tomes twice. He's usable lategame and is usable throughout the whole game, but he does have plenty of issues to hold him back.

I know how you feel. I find that Seth is often held back by his lack of flight and inability to use Rewarp staves.

[Dark Sage]

I know how you feel. I find that Seth is often held back by his lack of flight and inability to use Rewarp staves.

You forgot his lack of Dance and Holsety you heathen.

[Anouleth]

You forgot his lack of Dance and Holsety you heathen.

Dance would be useless. Unless he could dance with himself...

[Dark Sage]

Dance would be useless. Unless he could dance with himself...

He could dance a dancer who could move up and dance him and then he can move up and dance her and so on and so forth till they reach the end of the stage.