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Meta Knight is banned for all tourney's following official rules.


Esaka
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http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=311729 <- Source

I'm surprised that Metaknight was banned considering Fox never was, as I've heard that the main reason that all matches in Melee tournaments take place on final destination is because some characters just had a 0% chance of winning against him on certain stages.

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I really don't care, but... people were arguing about this for that long? I thought it had been settled over a year ago or something.

Edited by Othin
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I really don't care, but... people were arguing about this for that long? I thought it had been settled over a year ago or something.

its one of those things that should've been settled years ago if the Smash community wasn't retarded(in the sense of doing things really slowly) compaired to other community's that go threw these issues

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I'm surprised that Metaknight was banned considering Fox never was, as I've heard that the main reason that all matches in Melee tournaments take place on final destination is because some characters just had a 0% chance of winning against him on certain stages.

Extremely false. Melee Fox doesn't dominate the metagame nearly to the extent of Brawl MK. I mean, he shares his tier with 3 other characters.

Not every Melee match takes place on Final Destination. Battlefield, Dream Land 64, Yoshi's Story, and Fountain of Dreams are default legal stages. Most top and high tier characters go even or are at a minor disadvantage against Fox, which is more than what can be said about MK.

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...Wow. Never thought people would actually ban a character in an SSB game... I don't play MK but I don't find he's that OP. o.o

MK is one of those characters that is border line when it comes to banning. It is true that MK does have enough weaknesses that he can be played against, but there are other factors to consider as well. When you look at MK, he is a relatively easy character to pick up. This has given him a level of over centralization because if you have an issue with a character, pick-up MK as a secondary to deal with problem some match-ups. He has access to lots of options that completely shut down multiple characters except a few. So much so that unless you have a way to deal with MK, then it will be difficult to ever progress in a tournament. It is very similar to Sheik in melee in how she simply wrecks most of the tier list with easy combos and deaths. There are further arguments to back up MK being over centralized when you see that MK dominates roughly 25%-33% of character usage when the 2nd most used character is snake settling at roughly 8%-10% (it varies with the study case). There is also another issue with brawl in general. MK is very good at abusing the incredibly safe ledges in brawl. It has never been a widespread issue because people feel the game is incredibly boring when you play it that way, but there are cases of it happening and it is incredibly unhealthy for the competitive scene to have to deal with that crap. Also, a lot of these facts are not just at a national tournament level of skill. There are problems with MK at pretty much all levels of the game.

There are reasons why people would want him out of the way, but at the same time it isn't severe enough for everyone to agree upon it.

http://www.smashboar...ad.php?t=311729 <- Source

I'm surprised that Metaknight was banned considering Fox never was, as I've heard that the main reason that all matches in Melee tournaments take place on final destination is because some characters just had a 0% chance of winning against him on certain stages.

I do not follow Melee as much, but Fox has a lots of incredibly guaranteed combos that make him extremely good. He can get very early gimps, he can combo into kill moves that kill very early, and he can very well be considered to have 0%-death combos. However, to play him that consistently requires a ton of work and duplicating it in tournament for many hours is usually unfeasible. Also, fox gets comboed to death himself. So a lot of match-ups with fox are very close to make one mistake lose a stock for either fox or his opponent. The certain stages argument is usually brought up with fox. Certain stages like onett are considered banned because Fox can infinite characters there or run away or people can never die. There are always other reasons why stages are banned, but fox is one that is brought up a lot.

its one of those things that should've been settled years ago if the Smash community wasn't retarded(in the sense of doing things really slowly) compared to other community's that go threw these issues

Honestly, banning a character like MK is a very controversial issue. It is not something that can be dealt with and left alone. Everytime public polls were cast (this is like a year difference too), the results nearly dead 50/50. It just so happens now that 3 years after brawl being played, lots of tournaments are finding that playing without MK makes it a more enjoyable game competition wise. Also, this is only for tournaments agreeing to use the unity rule set. There is a long tradition of no set in stone community rule set. Every tournament sort of has its own variations like legal stages. Its only because of smashboards that a competitive standard was generally agreed upon, however it has still been somewhat shaky from region to region. The unity ruleset is an attempt to unify US and Canadian regional and national based tournaments.

Extremely false. Melee Fox doesn't dominate the metagame nearly to the extent of Brawl MK. I mean, he shares his tier with 3 other characters.

Not every Melee match takes place on Final Destination. Battlefield, Dream Land 64, Yoshi's Story, and Fountain of Dreams are default legal stages. Most top and high tier characters go even or are at a minor disadvantage against Fox, which is more than what can be said about MK.

^This. Although, melee has fewer tournament viable characters in it. Sheik requires a great deal less effort to play on point than someone like fox or falco. Consistency has always been an issue with them while someone like sheik that is less technically demanding and relatively easy combos for damage racking and easy combos into death moves. Sheik can easily prevent many characters from doing well in tournament which leaves only Peach, Marth, Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Jigglypuff doing very well on their own in tournaments.

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First off, I'm surprised people still care about Brawl. Second, I'm surprised dondon cares about Brawl. Thirdly, I'm surprised this wasn't dealt with years ago as everyone knew Meta Knight was bullshit day 1.

...

...Could I see a matchup chart for this? Or at least know where to find one? Cause I recall hearing DeDeDe has matchups so lopsided his effect on the metagame that he's the reason half of low tier is in low tier. Something similar was the case with O. Sagat in Super Turbo Street Fighter 2, which is what got him softbanned in Japan.

Also note that an ease of character use does into necessarily enter into a character being bannable. Take Continuum Shift 2 Makoto. She's S tier by herself, and is pretty easy to pick up and go with. It's annoying, but she's not so powerful that she basically craps all over competition. You don't ban someone for being top tier but being easy to use. You ban a character that is easy to use, but is so powerful that not only is he completely unfun to fight, but unfun to play because their domination is so unquestionable that competition isn't even part of the equation. Meta Knight fits that bill completely.

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MU Chart: http://www.smashboar...ad.php?t=298484

Note that a lot of people disagree with MK having even MUs, also a new version will be released sometime during November afaik.

Anyway, as has been mentioned before, one of the main reasons (or maybe even the main reason) why MK was banned was his high amount of useage (see here). Something to note is that this was partly inspired by the fact that the US has both Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise as legal Counterpicks, and MK is incredibly hard to beat on either one for almost any other character. Following that, people picked him up as a secondary in order to avoid getting CP'd to these stages, which increased the amount of useage.

Another reason was that rules were made specifically to limit MK, including the stage list and a so called Ledge Grab Limit (if the match goes to time and you grabbed the ledge more often that the limit, you automatically lost that game). The LGL was not very effective though for limiting MK and arguably hurt some other characters more (while helping a few others), yet it's still kept at the moment, even after the ban. In the end, whether MK is actually a problem in a region often comes down to the legal stage list (e.g. Japan has no MK problems at all, and uses only BF/FD/SV for the most part, whereas MK was banned in two regions before (Nova Scotia and Finland, not aware of any others), which both have a rather liberal stagelist).

Lastly, here's how some other countries think about the ban for those that are interested:

Japan: Does completly disagree, and they say it's no wonder MK is giving the US troubles when their rules cater to him so much.

Netherlands: From what I've seen, they can see where the US is coming from, but don't see any reason to ban MK themselves. Short statement from one of their reps in the BBR.

France: Seems to be kinda split about the issue, I haven't seen any of them speak up since the ban was announced, but they might go through with it.

Germany: Also split but leans towards anti ban from the looks of it. The majority of Power Ranked players is either against the ban or indifferent.

UK: Wants to ban him, but only if other EU countries do the same.

Spain: Seems to be in favour of a ban. Last I heard is that they are soft banning him.

That's about everything I have to say I guess...

EDIT: Also the ban is optional under the Unity Ruleset until after APEX 2012, which will be held in January.

Edited by Chaoskitty
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MU Chart: http://www.smashboar...ad.php?t=298484

Note that a lot of people disagree with MK having even MUs, also a new version will be released sometime during November afaik.

Well from what I can see, he basically looks like Accent Core Eddie from Guilty Gear, a character everyone despises as he's a cheap easy character to use who has an answer for everything, and has unblockable setups up the ass so it's incredibly easy for him to kill you without much effort (much like how MK can basically fly people over the top of the screen, at least I've seen MK do that sort of garbage). Accent Core Eddie however is not banned, on account of "just deal with the matchup", even though he has no even or bad matchups, but here's why I would still agree with a ban for MK despite the similarity. MK can simply kill you on a whim, while Eddie still at least has to work AND Guilty Gear has Bursts to buy you more room for error.

Anyway, as has been mentioned before, one of the main reasons (or maybe even the main reason) why MK was banned was his high amount of useage (see here). Something to note is that this was partly inspired by the fact that the US has both Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise as legal Counterpicks, and MK is incredibly hard to beat on either one for almost any other character. Following that, people picked him up as a secondary in order to avoid getting CP'd to these stages, which increased the amount of useage.

Well then the question to be asked here is, is there a stage that you can counterpick Meta-Knight on? If not (As in, he's either neutral or still has an advantage on all stages), then this would be more evidence that Meta Knight is simply too ridiculous.

Another reason was that rules were made specifically to limit MK, including the stage list and a so called Ledge Grab Limit (if the match goes to time and you grabbed the ledge more often that the limit, you automatically lost that game). The LGL was not very effective though for limiting MK and arguably hurt some other characters more (while helping a few others), yet it's still kept at the moment, even after the ban. In the end, whether MK is actually a problem in a region often comes down to the legal stage list (e.g. Japan has no MK problems at all, and uses only BF/FD/SV for the most part, whereas MK was banned in two regions before (Nova Scotia and Finland, not aware of any others), which both have a rather liberal stagelist).

First off, what is BF/FD/SV? Secondly, LGL sounds like a stupid rule in the first place.

[quoteLastly, here's how some other countries think about the ban for those that are interested:

Japan: Does completly disagree, and they say it's no wonder MK is giving the US troubles when their rules cater to him so much.

Netherlands: From what I've seen, they can see where the US is coming from, but don't see any reason to ban MK themselves. Short statement from one of their reps in the BBR.

France: Seems to be kinda split about the issue, I haven't seen any of them speak up since the ban was announced, but they might go through with it.

Germany: Also split but leans towards anti ban from the looks of it. The majority of Power Ranked players is either against the ban or indifferent.

UK: Wants to ban him, but only if other EU countries do the same.

Spain: Seems to be in favour of a ban. Last I heard is that they are soft banning him.

Japan tends to ban things only under THE worst of circumstances. Like, they will only ban if the character in question is absolutely unbeatable (Super Turbo 2 Akuma is the only example I can think of). Otherwise, I know they softban characters that basically lopside the metagame too harshly (Old Sagat, again in Super Turbo 2). A softban is basically one that allows him to be used in tournament, but you're basically defamed for it. Japan frowns upon counterpicks, and counterpicking a character with very lopsided matchups to them is just a sign that you're too awful to deal with a matchup.

Even considering though, I'm shocked they still think MK is no problem. MK at least fits the merits of the softban from what I can see of the matchup list.

Dunno how most European nations do things.

Other characters I can see being incredibly annoying to the metagame, based on what I can collect from this matchup chart but nowhere NEAR as annoying as MK are Falco, Marth, and DeDeDe (Despite the fact DeDeDe has plenty of horrible matchups too, though 2 of those bad matchups happen to be MK and Falco).

I hate this matchup chart, because mathematically, it seems out of order. It just seems to be listed on "who has the lest negative matchups" rather than "Adding up numbers to show how much of a positive they can be", as it can shine light to who can crush a metagame by sucking in some matchups, but still having good matchups just because they blow up characters so bad. Let's reorder things based on numbers. Also, to shine light on how retarded MK is, and to show how obsessive I am about numbers, and how much time I have on my hands.

MK: 76+

--------

Marth: 47+

Ice Climbers: 47+

Snake: 45+

Falco: 45+

--------

Olimar: 37+

Wario: 36+

Pikachu: 36+

DeDeDe: 36+

Diddy: 34+

Let's remove MK from this, see how the numbers flow then.

Marth: 48+

Ice Climbers: 48+

Snake: 46+

Falco: 45+

-----------

DeDeDe: 38+

Olimar: 38+

Wario: 37+

Pikachu: 36+

Diddy: 34+

If the new update to the tier list in November has DeDeDe up two points minimum, he will be Top Tier specifically for how hard he shits on very specific matchups despite having horrible matchups elsewhere. Namely these two shit on Lucas and Pokemon Trainer pretty hard. Basically, Marth is Vega and DeDeDe is Honda, though Honda wasn't nearly Top Tier last I recall.

Anyways, I decided to crunch numbers, here's the real list in order.

S Tier

Meta Knight 76+

A Tier

Marth 47+

Ice Climbers 47+

Snake 45+

Falco 45+

B Tier

Olimar 37+

Wario 36+

Pikachu 36+

DeDeDe 34+

Diddy 34+

C Tier

Mr. G&W 28+

T. Link 27+

Lucario 26+

Icarus 25+

Z. Samus 24+

Peach 23+

D Tier

Kirby +13

Fox +10

Wolf 8+

Zelda/Sheik (Why are they even seperate?) 6+

ROB: 1+

Sheik: 0

DK 2-

F Tier

Sonic 12-

Ike 13-

Luigi 14-

Yoshi 15-

Pokemon Trainer 19-

H Tier

Ness 28-

Mario 30-

I Tier

Samus 39-

Lucas 41-

J Tier

Bowser 58-

Captain Falcon 59-

Jigglypuff 60-

Link 61-

Zelda 64-

K Tier

L Tier

M Tier

Ganon 99-

This is ridiculous. Now I'mma do 2 things. 1: I'm going to remove MK from the list, and 2: I'mma remove Shiek and Zelda, since there's no reason you wouldn't have a reason to stay as one in a matchup that is going to end bad for you anyways (not that Zelda HAS a good matchup. Hilariously enough, removing individual Zelda and Shiek, MK would STILL wouldn't go below 70+. Besides, having them both individually just inflates numbers meaninglessly).

A Tier

Marth 44+

Ice Climbers 44+

Falco 43+

B Tier

Snake 39+

DeDeDe 35+

Olimar 34+

Wario 33+

Pikachu 31+

Diddy 31+

C Tier

Mr. G&W 25+

Lucario 24+

T. Link 24+

Icarus 24+

Z. Samus 23+

Peach 22+

D Tier

Fox 11+

Kirby 9+

Wolf 8+

Z/S 7+

ROB 2+

DK -2

E Tier

Ike -10

Sonic -11

PT -14

Yoshi -16

Luigi -18

F Tier

Mario -27

Ness -27

G Tier

Samus -35

Lucas -38

H Tier

Bowser -54

Captain Falcon -55

Jigglypuff -56

Link -58

I Tier

J Tier

Ganon -89

Notable Changes

Marth is your new king.

Snake falls to B tier, as he no longer has Zelda and Shiek individual padding for his rank.

DeDeDe leaps over Olimar, Wario and Pikachu.

Fox overtakes Kirby now.

Ike overtakes Sonic

PT overtakes Yoshi AND Luigi.

Yoshi overtakes Luigi.

Mario and Ness now tied.

Ganon rose up a tier, and still has a tier seperating him from the next worst set of characters.

Otherwise, MK out of the game doesn't change the meta of the game much, outside of the fact that Meta Knight's no longer in it.

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You don't seem to understand what tier lists in smash are based on. It depends on how well a character does against common opponents, not against a randomly chosen opponent - in other words, it's a self-interfering system, where a good performance against top-tier characters is more important than a bad performance against everyone else. It's why Wolf is so high up - despite being, as you've shown, barely above average against a random opponent, he's got good matchups against a reasonable number of high tiers, which is very important.

Also, Zelda/Shiek are seperate because a lot of players don't use both well - they just switch characters completely for counterpicks.

Anyway, I'm curious as to what the Japanese/European standard rules are and how they don't favour MK so much. Does anyone know?

Edited by Tableskitty
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Well from what I can see, he basically looks like Accent Core Eddie from Guilty Gear, a character everyone despises as he's a cheap easy character to use who has an answer for everything, and has unblockable setups up the ass so it's incredibly easy for him to kill you without much effort (much like how MK can basically fly people over the top of the screen, at least I've seen MK do that sort of garbage). Accent Core Eddie however is not banned, on account of "just deal with the matchup", even though he has no even or bad matchups, but here's why I would still agree with a ban for MK despite the similarity. MK can simply kill you on a whim, while Eddie still at least has to work AND Guilty Gear has Bursts to buy you more room for error.

What's giving you the idea that the MK doesn't have to put in work? I mean, if it was that simple, how come that MK doesn't take 7 of the top 8 spots all over the world?

Well then the question to be asked here is, is there a stage that you can counterpick Meta-Knight on? If not (As in, he's either neutral or still has an advantage on all stages), then this would be more evidence that Meta Knight is simply too ridiculous.

It's difficult to say, simply because MK's metagame is by far more advanced than that of any other character in the US. ICs on Final Destination is something people are split upon from what I recall. Diddy Kong might be +1 if he's fully devloped, and Marth has a guaranteed Grab Release -> DAir spike on MK that results in death at 30%+ (no Marth can actually do this consistently, yet he already at -1).

First off, what is BF/FD/SV? Secondly, LGL sounds like a stupid rule in the first place.

Battle Field, Final Destination, Smashville. LGL was implemented because MK has the ability to regrab the ledge with only one frame of vulnerability, but as he doesn't need to grab the ledge in order to go for timeouts, it didn't actually help much. There are other characters, such as Pikachu, G&W and Marth that have very good abilities in that area (not as good as MK, but still very difficult to punish). Some people proposed a solution to this problem about a year ago, but the majority felt that it changed the game too much.

Japan tends to ban things only under THE worst of circumstances. Like, they will only ban if the character in question is absolutely unbeatable (Super Turbo 2 Akuma is the only example I can think of). Otherwise, I know they softban characters that basically lopside the metagame too harshly (Old Sagat, again in Super Turbo 2). A softban is basically one that allows him to be used in tournament, but you're basically defamed for it. Japan frowns upon counterpicks, and counterpicking a character with very lopsided matchups to them is just a sign that you're too awful to deal with a matchup.

Even considering though, I'm shocked they still think MK is no problem. MK at least fits the merits of the softban from what I can see of the matchup list.

Dunno how most European nations do things.

Japan doesn't see MK as a problem, simply because he is no problem over there. Their best players use Olimar and ICs, and they have a total of four MKs that actually place well. It's similar in most parts of the EU, we sooner have a Marth problem than a MK problem.

Btw if you are curious how Japan see the tier list: http://www.smashboar...ad.php?t=287307

Other characters I can see being incredibly annoying to the metagame, based on what I can collect from this matchup chart but nowhere NEAR as annoying as MK are Falco, Marth, and DeDeDe (Despite the fact DeDeDe has plenty of horrible matchups too, though 2 of those bad matchups happen to be MK and Falco).

DDD destroys most low tiers, but doesn't do very well against a lot of the high tier characters. He is a decent secondary now, and it will stay that way with the ban. How good Falco is largely depends on whether the LGL will be lifted in the future, as he can't combat ledge tactics very well. Marth is a decent character, but rather difficult to use as he requires the player to space pretty much everything perfectly.

Furthermore, Diddy Kong is a character that should definately be mentioned here. None of his negative MUs are generally agreed upon, and are all argued as even iirc. His only major weakness is that he's not very good on some stages.

I hate this matchup chart, because mathematically, it seems out of order. It just seems to be listed on "who has the lest negative matchups" rather than "Adding up numbers to show how much of a positive they can be", as it can shine light to who can crush a metagame by sucking in some matchups, but still having good matchups just because they blow up characters so bad. Let's reorder things based on numbers. Also, to shine light on how retarded MK is, and to show how obsessive I am about numbers, and how much time I have on my hands.

The MU chart is ordered based on the tier list. Before you ask why they aren't the same, the tier list takes tournament results into account.

http://www.smashboar...ad.php?t=306431

[spoiler=Long list]

MK: 76+

--------

Marth: 47+

Ice Climbers: 47+

Snake: 45+

Falco: 45+

--------

Olimar: 37+

Wario: 36+

Pikachu: 36+

DeDeDe: 36+

Diddy: 34+

Let's remove MK from this, see how the numbers flow then.

Marth: 48+

Ice Climbers: 48+

Snake: 46+

Falco: 45+

-----------

DeDeDe: 38+

Olimar: 38+

Wario: 37+

Pikachu: 36+

Diddy: 34+

If the new update to the tier list in November has DeDeDe up two points minimum, he will be Top Tier specifically for how hard he shits on very specific matchups despite having horrible matchups elsewhere. Namely these two shit on Lucas and Pokemon Trainer pretty hard. Basically, Marth is Vega and DeDeDe is Honda, though Honda wasn't nearly Top Tier last I recall.

Anyways, I decided to crunch numbers, here's the real list in order.

S Tier

Meta Knight 76+

A Tier

Marth 47+

Ice Climbers 47+

Snake 45+

Falco 45+

B Tier

Olimar 37+

Wario 36+

Pikachu 36+

DeDeDe 34+

Diddy 34+

C Tier

Mr. G&W 28+

T. Link 27+

Lucario 26+

Icarus 25+

Z. Samus 24+

Peach 23+

D Tier

Kirby +13

Fox +10

Wolf 8+

Zelda/Sheik (Why are they even seperate?) 6+

ROB: 1+

Sheik: 0

DK 2-

F Tier

Sonic 12-

Ike 13-

Luigi 14-

Yoshi 15-

Pokemon Trainer 19-

H Tier

Ness 28-

Mario 30-

I Tier

Samus 39-

Lucas 41-

J Tier

Bowser 58-

Captain Falcon 59-

Jigglypuff 60-

Link 61-

Zelda 64-

K Tier

L Tier

M Tier

Ganon 99-

This is ridiculous. Now I'mma do 2 things. 1: I'm going to remove MK from the list, and 2: I'mma remove Shiek and Zelda, since there's no reason you wouldn't have a reason to stay as one in a matchup that is going to end bad for you anyways (not that Zelda HAS a good matchup. Hilariously enough, removing individual Zelda and Shiek, MK would STILL wouldn't go below 70+. Besides, having them both individually just inflates numbers meaninglessly).

A Tier

Marth 44+

Ice Climbers 44+

Falco 43+

B Tier

Snake 39+

DeDeDe 35+

Olimar 34+

Wario 33+

Pikachu 31+

Diddy 31+

C Tier

Mr. G&W 25+

Lucario 24+

T. Link 24+

Icarus 24+

Z. Samus 23+

Peach 22+

D Tier

Fox 11+

Kirby 9+

Wolf 8+

Z/S 7+

ROB 2+

DK -2

E Tier

Ike -10

Sonic -11

PT -14

Yoshi -16

Luigi -18

F Tier

Mario -27

Ness -27

G Tier

Samus -35

Lucas -38

H Tier

Bowser -54

Captain Falcon -55

Jigglypuff -56

Link -58

I Tier

J Tier

Ganon -89

Notable Changes

Marth is your new king.

Snake falls to B tier, as he no longer has Zelda and Shiek individual padding for his rank.

DeDeDe leaps over Olimar, Wario and Pikachu.

Fox overtakes Kirby now.

Ike overtakes Sonic

PT overtakes Yoshi AND Luigi.

Yoshi overtakes Luigi.

Mario and Ness now tied.

Ganon rose up a tier, and still has a tier seperating him from the next worst set of characters.

Otherwise, MK out of the game doesn't change the meta of the game much, outside of the fact that Meta Knight's no longer in it.

I have to disagree with this slightly. Sure, MK seems to have a very large positive compared to the other characters, but it should be noted that most of that comes from characters that are unviable in the first place. Only looking at the Top Tier characters, he either goes even with them or has only a slight advantage. Really the only character that suddenly becomes a lot more viable when removing MK is Toon Link.

Tables, I'll reply to you in just a second...

EDIT:

You don't seem to understand what tier lists in smash are based on. It depends on how well a character does against common opponents, not against a randomly chosen opponent - in other words, it's a self-interfering system, where a good performance against top-tier characters is more important than a bad performance against everyone else. It's why Wolf is so high up - despite being, as you've shown, barely above average against a random opponent, he's got good matchups against a reasonable number of high tiers, which is very important.

Also, Zelda/Shiek are seperate because a lot of players don't use both well - they just switch characters completely for counterpicks.

Anyway, I'm curious as to what the Japanese/European standard rules are and how they don't favour MK so much. Does anyone know?

The only thing that's really different is the legal stage list, so I'll post only those...

Latest EU International, Brawl in Berlin 2:

Stage-List

Starter Stages

Battlefield

Final Destination

Lylat Cruise

Smashville

Yoshi’s Island (Brawl)

Counter-Pick Stages

Castle Siege

Delfino Plaza

Frigate Orpheon

Halberd

Pokémon Stadium 1

Pokémon Stadium 2

Japan's stagelist consists of Battle Field, Final Destination and Smashville as starter stages, and I believe Lylat Cruise, Pokemon Stadium 1 and Delfino Plaza as counterpicks (though they really only play on the first three). Furthermore, in Japan MK's Extended Dimension Cape Glitch is not completly banned, but allowed to be used once for up to 10 seconds... this resets every time you KO an opponent. Japan also uses a 10 minute timer as opposed to the US's and EU's 8 minute timer.

Edited by Chaoskitty
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You don't seem to understand what tier lists in smash are based on. It depends on how well a character does against common opponents, not against a randomly chosen opponent - in other words, it's a self-interfering system, where a good performance against top-tier characters is more important than a bad performance against everyone else. It's why Wolf is so high up - despite being, as you've shown, barely above average against a random opponent, he's got good matchups against a reasonable number of high tiers, which is very important.

Understandable, but in a normal tier list for a fighter, the tier is made up typically out of adding up the matchup flow. This isn't an SRPG where we're looking for characters most capable of killing the boss and mauling through groups of enemies, but who's healthy enough for competition.

As a Blazblue CS2 player, I have to say these numbers are rather staggering. CS2 doesn't have a character who goes above +15 and a character who doesn't go below -20. It's fair to say that with Brawl, a competition for some characters is pretty much impossible from the looks of it. H Tier and lower basically just don't cut it when I see these numbers in conjuncture with matchup charts. Everything else above it at worst has a few rough patches but can still throw down with the best of them.

Only thing I can note from the matchup chart is that Marth has 2 bad matchups and 1 of them got axed. Marth himself from what I can tell has a pretty horrifying effect on the matchup chart. If we can agree that the tiers that everyone shits on can pretty much be ignored in competitive play out of the fact they're too incompetent to win, I'd say it's not TOO bad. If going by Blazblue standards, F Tier and up are the viable fighters with MK gone, as Marth with G tier and lower ignored seems no worse than CS2 Makoto. Sonic and Ike are gonna struggle a bit, but they aren't absolutely blown up. Here's to seeing more of those two get played, as Meta Knight did a harsh number to the both of them. But even with a few matchups out of their favor, hey. If Tager can do it, those two can do it.

Also, Zelda/Shiek are seperate because a lot of players don't use both well - they just switch characters completely for counterpicks.

That's kinda why it's silly, because she's a character that if one side is at a disadvantage, she can just switch to the other. In fact with practice, I'm sure one could find use for both forms in an individual fight, one just has to ask the when and why I transform on this specific character. It just seems like you're neutering yourself keeping to one form. In fact, by tier standards, you ARE. Neither Shiek or Zelda look viable for competition individually. If used in tandem more like a stance changing character, she seems perfectly viable. Just probably has to take some getting used to.

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Wow, I am surprised this exploded with walls of text lol

Well, despite whatever another world does, what will anyone here want to do about it for the forum? Does anyone have any sudden desire to have to change their outlook on using MK? Are those fun tournaments going to conform to other rules?

I honestly do not see any reason to change anything here. This is just another one of those interesting "Hmm" topics.

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Wow, I am surprised this exploded with walls of text lol

Well, despite whatever another world does, what will anyone here want to do about it for the forum? Does anyone have any sudden desire to have to change their outlook on using MK? Are those fun tournaments going to conform to other rules?

I honestly do not see any reason to change anything here. This is just another one of those interesting "Hmm" topics.

I think I'm the only person here who actually mains Meta Knight. I don't really care, I'll stop using him if you guys want, or I can limit my control scheme so that I can't use his specials anymore (Tesh suggested that on SWF as you might recall, and it's actually pretty funny).

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Well personally speaking, I just like to crunch numbers, so I decided to do it. Walls of text come natural from me when it comes with numbers.

Personally speaking, I'm glad the ban on MK happened. Not because I care about competitive Brawl (seriously, I'm that number-obsessive), but because it'll stop people from bitching about MK.

Hopefully...

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Meh, I can handle all Meta Knights with ease. If mmmKALL's Meta Knight is anything like the competitive players' Meta Knights, then they seem to be relatively easy to beat. Falco on the other hand...

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^lolololol

this whole topic is a joke... seriously -_____-

Metaknight is broken

people don't like it

when you have a majority of people who don't like something it usually gets removed or changed... thus metaknight is banned

The end ;)

Edited by Strawhat Luffy
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