Lord Raven Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) Also, of course your parents are doing that, it's their kid. I was running around other neighborhoods once (in our little system of neighborhoods) without telling my parents. My mom was worried as shit and was lost and you know what she did? She called my dad, and you know what my dad did? In the middle of a meeting- a rather IMPORTANT meeting, dealing with his job's future- my mom called and said I was lost. He apparently left almost instantly (after saying 'something came up, g2g') and came to investigate. Never underestimate a parent's unconditional love for their child. Furthermore, this is still more of you being selfish. Much more. Do you realize how little control they have over their actions, or how their brains haven't developed like ours have to actually know that what they're doing is wrong? If they weren't mentally disabled I know for a fact they wouldn't do the things they did. Edited November 9, 2011 by Mercenary Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uguu Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Boo fucking hoo. Lots of people have problems far worse than those. Are your tiny inconveniences worth ruining someone's life over and denying them their rights as humans? I think not. I don't agree with him on a bunch of this, but really now? You're calling having to take care of another person entirely a minor inconvenience? Are you really saying that that couldn't potentially legitimately ruin HIS life? I don't care if people have gone through worse, relativity is fucking worthless except in specific circumstances, not objectively. I don't care that she NEEDS someone to take care of her, he's specifically been told that later he's gonna have to do everything her parents do right now for her. Why can't he complain about it? He certainly has the right, and you can say it's selfish for him to want something to change so he wouldn't have to deal with it, except it isn't. Would you honestly say that you wouldn't mind if you were forced to take care of a mentally disabled person? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestling Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 Wonderful. Systematized segregation. Are the blacks going next, when the whites find them inconvenient? I'm basing my claims on ability to perform in society. Basing this off of race is a completely different argument. Even if white supremacists feel that the black population is disbeneficial to society, they have no proof other then simple racism. With my claims, I at least have proof on how they disbenefit the country as a whole. But through posting this, I do see how my ideas have been radical to the point of insanity. Even though I'd still like action done to limit their impact on society (For instance, the crap about getting paid for going to school. If I'd change one thing, I'd change that in a heartbeat.). I thank those once again whom are being logical and not resorting to namecalling. You've actually had an effect on my views and allowed me to see views from the other side of the issue. But just @Dark Sage: You do realize that I'm talking about more then my sister, right? My views are based off of MANY people, all with different conditions, met in different areas, and all different, but similar. And holy crap when did I say torture or death. I never said "STARVE THEM" or anything. I'm suggesting removal. Never did I say torture. They can have all of the support and food they want in their secluded areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Hika, while I agree with you that taking care of another person is a lot of work and having it forced upon you like that sucks, Nestling is getting bashed because his tone is horrible and he comes off as a self-entitled punk, and his suggestions are, frankly, absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uguu Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Hika, while I agree with you that taking care of another person is a lot of work and having it forced upon you like that sucks, Nestling is getting bashed because his tone is horrible and he comes off as a self-entitled punk, and his suggestions are, frankly, absurd. I realize that, but reading, for example, some of Othin's posts it certainly doesn't seem like that's what they're bashing him for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 In physics, approximations are made because some term is _so_ negligible that it may as well not be there. The same thing applies here. In the grand scheme of things, as cruel as this may sound, society as a whole cannot be impacted or even affected very much simply because there aren't enough of them to do it. In reality, it's just affecting a small fraction of the world population and I don't think removal will benefit society very much at all; if anything, it's wasting more money playing by your logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestling Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 Paperblade, can you tell me how my tone is sounding like a punk? I'm not mad at you or anything, but I'm typing this in the most logical sense possible. Based on how I'm typing, I feel that I'm typing just like any other argument in any other subject. I'm not saying "I'M NOT ACTING COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS", because according to the forum response, I apparently am pretty rediculous. I expected this kind of response with my suggestions, but what is wrong with my tone? As I said, I'm not neccesarily raging here, I'm just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 So your life has clearly been affected in a very negative way by having to live with a mentally disabled person. That sucks and I sympathize with your situation. Reading the topic title, however, made be think immediately of Nazism. I mean, the suggestion is just inhumane, however much you may dislike disabled people. Exiling them from society is barely better then killing them. From your situation, it seems like you need to try to seek proactive help. I admittedly know little about the situation you are in, but isn't there a consular or something along those lines who could help you work through here situation and maybe help clear your record? There has to be some sort of organization which could help people in your position. Also, saying that your future is completely limited isn't the way to progress. At worst, focus on become qualified in the music profession now, and worry about when your parents die later. At worst, there is probably a way you could change your name or be otherwise freed of legal obligation to babysit your sister forever. I understand it seems like your life would be much, much better without your sister, but I don't think that leads to a jusification for forever excluding them from society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Paperblade, can you tell me how my tone is sounding like a punk? I'm not mad at you or anything, but I'm typing this in the most logical sense possible. Based on how I'm typing, I feel that I'm typing just like any other argument in any other subject. I'm not saying "I'M NOT ACTING COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS", because according to the forum response, I apparently am pretty rediculous. I expected this kind of response with my suggestions, but what is wrong with my tone? As I said, I'm not neccesarily raging here, I'm just curious. I haven't read it out of your posts, but out of several who responded, they had that tone. They also were quick to accuse and personify rather than think about the actual argument. I think it more depends on whether society is even important enough that certain people should be excluded from it. But I know exactly what you're referring to in the opening post. I used to get stuck riding a bus every week when the local WTC workers were being sent home. Work Training Center--making mentally handicapped work for their help. Most of them were really pissy fuckers. I mean, it's one thing to be secluded and affected mentally, but their personalities and actions were straight dickish, such as picking fights, calling names, not caring where they sat. But you have to be careful generalizing, 'cause then you're throwing out the cases where some people are mentally at a disadvantage and aren't such "wastes" for a "productive" society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestling Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 I'd rather avoid the whole escaping my life thing. Although I'd do quite a bit to live a life without this huge burden on myself, I'd also like to live my life without tossing my burdens onto equally less-willing people. With the ideas that I am suggesting, I am at least making it so those in the future never have to go through the struggles that can be caused. With just escaping my life to avoid a burden, I benefit nobody but myself, and even those benefits are marginal. I'm not arguing with your post, just to be clear. I'm just saying that I disagree with a part of your solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 You basically want 1 of 2 things to happen: 1. Someone else devote their time to taking care of them. This makes you come off as a selfish punk. 2. No one devote their time to taking care of them. You might as well just kill them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 So my solution is far from perfect. I was just pointing out that if you chain yourself down already, you really don't have a chance to succeed. Your solution is almost on par with genocide, however. Aren't there some community homes that exist to help mentally disabled people? That seems like a much better solution then either. Obviously, it's not something your parents would want, due to the care they've invested in her already, but perhaps a spread of those could at some point be a solution. And if your record has been marred by your sister, I do think you should seek out someone to help you with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aere Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) I'm not picking a side here, but anytime one throws out a personal insult during an argument, they lose a large amount of my respect. Keep the name calling to a place that isn't an actual discussion... What I think the OP is trying to say (albeit in a much harsher and angrier way) is to have others care for the disabled who cannot overcome their disability. Kind of like an Old Folks' home? I'm spitballing here, as I am completely impartial to this topic, but perhaps some of these disabled (Like OP's sister) could go to one of these facilities, and be cared for by a trained, and paid staff. That would take the burden off of the parents of the disabled, and maybe lessen the financial strain on his/her previous caretakers? I guess the parents would still be paying some amount to house their child/relative, but would that fall under medical insurance? If my idea doesn't make sense, I'm just trying to restate the OP's views in a lighter tone. EDIT:: I'm aware that most of the solutions have open ends and aren't that thought out. The argument was poorly phrased to begin with, and I wasn't sure what to make of how such solutions would be achieved. EDIT2:: Haze, our sigs are very similar :D Edited November 9, 2011 by Aere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haze Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Soooo, you'd want to segregate the physically disabled people too, I'm guessing. God forbid people "have" to take care of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erk Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 ahahah, nestling, what have you started. You crazy bastard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Spoon Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Support eugenics and the problem fades into obscurity. Just because a guy named "Hitler" liked the idea doesn't mean its a bad idea. A guy named "Plato" also liked the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestling Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 You basically want 1 of 2 things to happen: 1. Someone else devote their time to taking care of them. This makes you come off as a selfish punk. 2. No one devote their time to taking care of them. You might as well just kill them. From a moral standpoint, I agree, I totally seem completely heartless and insane. But on the hand, look at this. I never wanted them to be left on their own. In an ideal plan, I'd like them to be separated. Just like how in schools, they are put into special ed classes, semi-secluded from the world. These classes put them away from the evil dangers of others. As stated plenty of times earlier, they don't know what they're doing is wrong. If they were consistently integrated with non-disabled people, what stops them from suddenly being drawn into drugs or other bad things. After all, based on what's been said earlier, they can tell if they've been wrong or not. This totally happens in the outside world, and in a quick instant, these influences can get to them and hurt them. I know this is a completely different point shift, but ideas pop up into my head pretty quick as I read the posts here. Also, it's kind of like with the clinically insane. They don't know what they're doing is wrong, but they're put into asylums simply because a court or a family deemed them insane and unfit for society. Instead of getting proper help, they are simply locked up in padded rooms, because they do not benefit society. Thinking about it, isn't this kind of like retirement homes? Like, you know, when the elderly are considered "too old to live with us! I can't support them! Let's seclude them from the world in their own homes!" I'm not assuming that everyone believes retirement homes are great, but look at this. Retirement homes are socially acceptable. It's for people whom "can't be supported" in any sort of way. For instance, Alzheimer's. Even those whom are just old and maybe stingy. What sort of difference makes Retirement Homes socially acceptable but Disabilitied segregation (or homes, if you'd like to think of it) a terrible thing? also, I kinda stopped arguing with the quote above and started typing thoughts halfway through here, so please don't assume that all of this is towards the quote. This entire thread is pretty much just me thinking openly with opinions to influence my ideas. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) I'm glad you calmed down from your early state* of "let's exile them" to "let's create a sort of social program for them." Because at that point they're not disallowed from society, they just have a more comfortable niche in society. *I am judging based on tone here and something you almost outright stated, there would not be as much of a problem with the opening post if your tone hadn't been so aggressive- you sounded quite whiny and selfish in your original posts and I'm not the only one who felt this, but when you got into "taking care of them" you started making a legitimate point Edited November 9, 2011 by Mercenary Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I can't tell if your change from "exile" and "they're a drain on society and offer nothing" to "social program" and "they could hurt themselves!" is just that you sucked at expressing yourself in the OP and your first few posts or if you're backpedaling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 (edited) Of course they should. Without question. It's like excluding black people, white people, Asian people, or what have you from society just because of the way they were born--as if they had some control. Who cares that she's an arrogant person? We have plenty of arrogant assholes that aren't mentally disabled, and don't help out society, yet they stay in it. As they should. If she's getting paid for a job, she has a place in society. If she's being taken care of by someone, helping them have a job (indirectly), then she has a place. Should we kill retired people? Edited November 9, 2011 by Phoenix Wright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestling Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 I'm not going to downright say "WELL THAT WAS MY IDEA FROM THE BEGINNING, BUT I WAS VAGUE", because that's totally not true. Maybe it was in the back of my head, but I will admit that I had no idea of such until reading through the topic and thinking of a solution after pressures on here to "Less Insane or GTFO" But I'm glad that we've at least progressed to a sort of consensus. Even if it's not a compromise or agreement, we at the very least, I apologize for my cliches, but we agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Goldie Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Lolz Hahahhehahahheehehhee! A fellow human being is a fellow human being, to separate fellow human beings from fellow human beings is quite silly ohohohohooo! But all in all, the silliness is what defines fellow human beings - without this silliness it wouldn't be so entertaining to be alive, eh? Hehehheheeee! May fellow human beings continue to over-think the nonexistent forever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ring Wraith Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Support eugenics and the problem fades into obscurity. Just because a guy named "Hitler" liked the idea doesn't mean its a bad idea. A guy named "Plato" also liked the idea. Putting my own beliefs aside, I have to agree with this. I read the thread, and everybody was talking about inhumanity and junk. That's all subjective. If we were to redefine humanity, and dispose of all the mentally handicapped, the problem would be solved. Force abortions on all of those who would have the babies (I'm pretty sure people are already doing that willfully anyway) and we won't have to worry about it in the future. Putting them in exile would be the same as killing them, just indirect. Might as well be straightforward. As for the comparison to race, that's irrelevant, as the mind of the person is still completely there in all cases. Mentally handicapped people, are, well, handicapped, and bring down society. Should we not do our best to make society the most it can be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defeatist Elitist Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I think it's completely irrelevent whether they contribute to society or not. I'm perfectly happy to support a bunch of drains on society, so long as we have the capacity to do so. I think your problem, Nestling, is that due to the conditions where you live, the burden is being placed on specific individuals, as opposed to the whole society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 *sees special ed mentioned* From what I've seen on the job, it looks like they're trying to integrate some of the special-ed kids into the regular classroom. They might only stay in classrooms for a subject or two, but it's better than being separated from everyone the entire day. . .because being isolated, every day, doesn't do favors to one's personality. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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