FE13: A Faustian Bargain?

[Arch]

Actually, you could do that in FE10 too...there was a capacity limit but besides certain skills being limited to physical units only or certain laguz/beorc only, you could pretty much give any unit any skill.

In FE10 the personal skills of a unit took no capacity, and there were limits on the skills you could assign. Although yes, FE10's system was a lot less personal then FE4/5/9 with the nearly free swapping of skills. It looks like now skills are basically just an equivalent of items that buff your character's abilities. Five slots, and they can be outright traded between units freely. It's much less personal, instead just being another generic aspect of the unit that you control like the weapons they hold. We've got all of these tiny buff skills and the skill system overall seems really de-personalized from the FE4/5/9 (and FE10 to an extent) system.

[Esaka]

I think some minor aesthetic changes won't stop it if they appeal to both fans and casuals (Nintendo is BAD at this, or at least Smash is, but FE12 and FE8 had the right idea, optional choices to make a game easier)

[luchinania]

Instead of persona/FF, the animation style kinda reminds me of Valkyria Chronicles, and I have to admit that every time I see the videos I get a strong sense of deja vu. But apart from VC, this FE doesn't really look like other srpg. Personally, I don't dislike the anime style but I do find the clothing a bit odd; does the more elaborate style mean that FE is moving out of the middle ages? Anyway, I still think it's too soon to figure out how different and generic this FE will turn out. From what I've seen it still feels like FE, which means that it plays differently from other srpg.

I don't mind the return of skirmishes and arena. I like using skirmishes to raise all the characters to about the same level, which allows me to use characters I wouldn't normally bother with. I don't use the Arena, especially if it's like in TRS, because I find that is not fun or worth it. Really, the level of grinding you do is up to each player.

[Popo]

It may be too soon to tell, but from what we've seen so far "Fire Emblem: Awakening" has all the markings of a deal with the devil. What I mean is ultimately a trade-off: Fire Emblem selling some of its soul, its uniqueness, charm and identity, in exchange for a more mainstream appeal.

Just one look at the game's art-style gives off an instant "mainstream" vibe. Fire Emblem has always had a very unique art-style; a look that is distinctly "Fire Emblem." From the earliest days to the GBA-era, the Tellius games and the DS remakes, the series has always possessed a rather unique look, something distinct, something unique, something charming. FE13, however, has taken a much more mainstream, stereotypical anime look. Compare the look of characters like Linde to Krom's sister, Liz. It doesn't look like Fire Emblem anymore, it looks like your general anime.

I would agree with you on this. The first time I saw the new trailer, I literally said, "This doesn't look like Fire Emblem." The second time, I wondered if Intelligent Systems was still the developer. I think what got me was the overly styled facial designs and the gradient-heavy coloring. It reminds me of Atlus, or games like Rune Factory. It's beautiful, but it's not Fire Emblem. The series has always had gorgeous but relatively simple and scaled back designs--the most heavily decorated characters in Fire Emblem would look relatively normal in juxtaposition with other comparable series--with basic but no less effective color pallets and shading. It just doesn't have the same feel in the FE13 previews. Every other Fire Emblem game has slightly (or very) different changes to the in-game portraits and the out-of-game official art, but at least it had the same familiar feeling to it. This just looks foreign to me. Less genuine, I guess. It's true that we shouldn't judge the game on it's appearance, but presentation is important, and I still think the fact that I had to second guess the developer is a bit alarming. XP

I really can't say much for the gameplay or battle animation. Ever since FE9 onwards, I've felt that the 3D battle sprites lack fluidity and the level of polish expected, so I tend to ignore them. >o<

[Mekkah]

What even gave you the idea to ask such a clueless rhetorical question?

It's funny how you have no clue what you're talking about. The first, most important rule of objectively analyzing any game is that you may not arbitrarily ignore parts of the game or game rules for any reason. That means covering your eyes and shouting "just ignore that part of the games rules!" is a poor statement from the outset. You can whine and apologize for lazy or incompetent developers all you like, it's still their responsibility to implement an accurate and useful scoring system, not the players job to try to make some sense of their grind filled mess.

Other logical problems that I'm sure will be addressed by others aside, grinding is not a rule in FE. Maybe if it were so "difficult" (strong enemies vs weak PCs) that you couldn't beat it without grinding, then it would be a proper flaw. I dunno about FE2, but FE8 is considered one of the easiest games even by people who do not enter tower/skirmishes.

[Espinosa]

They did achieve commercial success by getting Roy, Marth and Ike into Super Smash Bros, didn't they? I don't see how a different game will change the status of the series dramatically. The art work does look a bit too anime-ish, but there have always been "waifus" in Fire Emblem that the fans enjoyed ogling over. Search up just about any FE girl's name and you'll find some YouTube videos dedicated to their appreciation.

[Arch]

A different game that is designed to appeal to a broader audience will change the status of the series, definitely. It'll attract more people to play it, and grow the base of consumers that Fire Emblem has. I think that's a pretty clear-cut and logical idea.

On the topic of Smash Bros., though, I'd bet anything that Krom replaces Ike and is a default character, since that'll attract attention to him (as a newcomer character) and advertise FE13 in much the way Marth and Roy did in Melee. Like Vincent said, it looks like they're wanting to push Fire Emblem. This would be a logical step to advertising the new game, in addition to the spotlight it's already receiving (like getting the headline of "first 3DS game with DLC").

Edited January 5, 2012 by Arch

[luchinania]

On the topic of Smash Bros., though, I'd bet anything that Krom replaces Ike and is a default character, since that'll attract attention to him (as a newcomer character) and advertise FE13 in much the way Marth and Roy did in Melee. Like Vincent said, it looks like they're wanting to push Fire Emblem. This would be a logical step to advertising the new game, in addition to the spotlight it's already receiving (like getting the headline of "first 3DS game with DLC").

Didn't they come to the conclusion in the other thread that by the time the next Smash Bros comes in existence Krom would probably be old news?

[Celice]

It would be very hard for that theory to hold water, yeah. Krom debuts in four months. I guess Arch knows a secret about Smash Bros and WiiU debuting just in time to make a difference :P

[Lord Raven]

It's funny how you have no clue what you're talking about. The first, most important rule of objectively analyzing any game is that you may not arbitrarily ignore parts of the game or game rules for any reason. That means covering your eyes and shouting "just ignore that part of the games rules!" is a poor statement from the outset. You can whine and apologize for lazy or incompetent developers all you like, it's still their responsibility to implement an accurate and useful scoring system, not the players job to try to make some sense of their grind filled mess.

Once again, a game is only a "grind filled mess" if you turn it into one. In this case, there is a potential to grind that you are perfectly able to avoid, and furthermore it becomes inefficient at some point to even use because the cost of hte weapons you need to kill outweigh the fact that you average close to like 20 EXP per skirmish.

"Ignore parts of the game or game rules" lol, we're not ignoring game rules at all. We're ignoring a part of the game that we have every right to ignore. If it were a rule to fight in a skirmish then everyone would have to fight in skirmishes, by the way, but as far as I know skirmishes are an extra portion of the game that is perfectly avoidable and is there in case someone needs it. The only other games with "infinite grinding" (any FE game can turn into a game with infinite grinding what with boss abuse lol) would be FE8 and FE2 and their main stories were not considered very hard if you ignored the infinite grinding. It's the character balance that was the problem.

And objective analysis? Give me a break. I don't see why you're so special that you have to define what an objective analysis is- how grinding breaks the game isn't objective. Especially because grinding is easily avoided and not always necessary and you'd see every single RPG being harped on for allowing you to grind -_- And I see plenty of "objective analysis" of these RPGs that people ignore grinding simply because it's easy to break a game with enough patience.

What even gave you the idea to ask such a clueless rhetorical question?

Gonna respond to this point because it's condescending enough.

The fact that you say that any potential for grinding = shitty game design.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Mercenary Raven

[Arch]

Never too late to advertise a product? But yeah, I'd forgotten that Smash Bros. isn't due for a while. I'd still wager that Krom is there as the this game's ad for the latest Fire Emblem, since a newcomer in Smash Bros. will still get attention (Roy was there for Sword of Seals, Ike was there for FE9/10). But you're right, the timing is off for an immediate help to the series.

[General Banzai]

Series doesn't need help. It still sells perfectly well in Japan.

[Shadow Stalker X]

I think on the topic of Smash Bros., it wouldn't be too difficult to push FE13 through it. E3 '12 is only about 6 months away, and a trailer for the game can easily be made to show off several characters. If FE13 is announced for an international release, including Krom as a playable character in that trailer could easily help push sales.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Shadow Stalker X

[Arch]

Series doesn't need help. It still sells perfectly well in Japan.

You're right. It sells fine in Japan. Series needs help everywhere else. I don't think this is about Japan. It's about getting back on a growing trend internationally by appealing to a broader audience and putting the game in the spotlight (like the "first DLC on the 3DS" headline). Out of curiosity, I saw the headline on Kotaku and then searched for all other stories with the "Fire Emblem" tag. Dating back to the release of Path of Radiance, the DLC headline and announcement of FE13 (which was itself a headline because of the conference in which it was announced) were the only non-"this game just came out so we'll write a few paragraphs about it" that could be found. They're going for some spotlight, and going for a broader appeal with this new style and new approach, and it's all with the intention of enhancing commercial success.

[luchinania]

But they haven't even stared Smash Bros.

[The_Purple_Knight]

I'm perfectly fine with any changes made in this game fire emblem hasn't really been as innovative since fe5 . If the changes are pulled from mainstream games who cares it's something different . However , I would be extremely upset if they borrowed features from final fantasy tactics I greatly dislike that system and don't want fire emblem to be tarnished with features from (in my opinion) a crappy game .

[pat726]

Fire emblem going mainstream.... That's funny considering the series is and always has been mainstream in the country they make it in and make it for (Japan). Fire emblem having a completely unique look? Ever play Advance Wars? Please just stop being a video game hipster, and pretending like the uncultured masses of grandma wii bowling gamers are destroying our games. The last DS FE actually made their game more accessable the smart way without sacrificing a thing for more serious players, and that was by introducing casual mode while still having the normal and insane difficulty modes too.

[Arch]

Once again, I think it's hilarious that I'm being called a video game "hipster." I think you missed the entire point: it's just an analysis of the situation. I've never said that the new direction is "bad" or "uncultured," you're the one dragging out the grandmas and the Wii Bowling (which I never once bashed, since I'm somewhat of a casual gamer myself and enjoy things like Wii Bowling with grandma). All I've done is analyze, offer food-for-thought and point out that the direction is different and asked the question: is it a trade-off? Is Intelligent Systems sacrificing some of the series' soul for more commercial success? You're free to disagree with the analysis, but to call me a "hipster" for pondering the new direction taken by IS is absolutely rich.

As to your actual points: Advance Wars is a small series and shares a look with Fire Emblem because, I dunno, they're made by the same people? And once again, Fire Emblem is fine in Japan. And once again, this isn't about Japan. I think it's an attempt at setting the series on a growing trend internationally. Fire Emblem is a niche series, and I feel like they're trying to broaden their commercial base by making a "Fire Emblem for the masses." FE12 was a step in this direction, FE13 is the leap. The question I have is: are they leaping too far, and are they sacrificing some soul for success? I think those are fair questions to raise.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Arch

[Celice]

Perhaps you should pay attention to the fact that IS already tried branding itself entirely for a western audience--they've gone on record saying that the last Advance Wars was created specifically for a Western audience. They did away with everything the series was known for, intentionally, dropping the colorful and humorous appeals of war, instead trying to craft a game that would appeal directly to international gamers and their tastes. Did the sales on that game differ much from the previous games in the series? I don't think IS wants to gamble twice with huge overhauls. And it's showing... because this Fire Emblem isn't exactly being thrown all around in a grinder and spat out like new diamonds. If the last overhaul didn't make a big different, IS isn't likely to tread the same path twice

And Fire Emblem is hardly a niche series. Ever since its international release, in the U.S., at least, it has not only been highly regarded, but often spoken of. Niche games don't see more than several articles--Fire Emblem has seen plenty over that ;)

Edited January 5, 2012 by Celice

[Arch]

You have some good points, but it's hardly unheard of to try something a second time with learned lessons from a first failure. Fire Emblem's on a downward trend, so much so that the last game isn't even going international. I figure, based on the fact that we have this new direction, the folks at IS think it's time to do something to grow the commercial base with this next title. They aren't doing a total overall like they did with the last Advance Wars (a total sacrifice of the soul), but it's a leap in a new direction; a direction that I feel is more appealing to broader audiences, and that's the point of it all.

[dondon151]

I've never said that the new direction is "bad" or "uncultured,"

Really?

"'Fire Emblem: Awakening' has all the markings of a deal with the devil"

"Fire Emblem selling some of its soul"

"What especially rubs me this way"

"it just doesn't look and feel like Fire Emblem anymore"

It doesn't take a communications major to figure out that there was plenty of vocabulary in your original post that possessed negative connotations. Now, perhaps you don't actually feel this way, but there is a reason why everyone is interpreting your original post as a statement of personal opinion.

Edited January 5, 2012 by dondon151

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Perhaps you should pay attention to the fact that IS already tried branding itself entirely for a western audience--they've gone on record saying that the last Advance Wars was created specifically for a Western audience. They did away with everything the series was known for, intentionally, dropping the colorful and humorous appeals of war, instead trying to craft a game that would appeal directly to international gamers and their tastes. Did the sales on that game differ much from the previous games in the series? I don't think IS wants to gamble twice with huge overhauls. And it's showing... because this Fire Emblem isn't exactly being thrown all around in a grinder and spat out like new diamonds. If the last overhaul didn't make a big different, IS isn't likely to tread the same path twice

And Fire Emblem is hardly a niche series. Ever since its international release, in the U.S., at least, it has not only been highly regarded, but often spoken of. Niche games don't see more than several articles--Fire Emblem has seen plenty over that ;)

Celice what you say hurts my very soul.

not only was that game a complete betrail of AW fans...it was also the game that did so bad in japan that the series got canceled because of it T_T(granted it didn't do so hot overseas as well)

[Arch]

What I meant by "deal with the devil" was mostly the concept of the deal, not the connotation of the devil. I thought the intended use of the imagery would be clear if the rest of the writing emphasized the deal aspect. My bad for rubbing you the wrong way (I don't see how that one is negative, but okay). I'm waiting for someone to point out where I went all "hipster" and raged against the mainstream for being uncultured and inherently awful. The only possibly negative opinion statement is that if doesn't look or feel like Fire Emblem, which you're free to agree or disagree with (I also never said that it's good or bad). That's just my assessment of the current situation. Other than that, it's analysis and food-for-thought, and if you're taking it as anything else (when the headline is a question and it's stated that it's just food-for-thought), then you might want to go back and retake a few classes for that communications major .

Also, I've gone back and reworded a few things. Hopefully my intents will be more clear for everyone. It's just meant to be just an assessment of the current situation, I never come out and say "oh my God, this is an awful thing," it's just meant to analyze what's going on, why it might be going on, and allow for others to think about that assessment and discuss.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Arch

[Anouleth]

Celice what you say hurts my very soul.

not only was that game a complete betrail of AW fans...it was also the game that did so bad in japan that the series got canceled because of it T_T(granted it didn't do so hot overseas as well)

How do you know that AW4 did badly in Japan when it was never released there?

Advance Wars has always done poorly in Japan. And I think that AW4 was great. The addition of online multiplayer is a great addition, and the redesign of how COs worked made multiplayer really fun.

[arvilino]

When I watch the trailers for this game it just doesn't look and feel like Fire Emblem anymore. It could be easily mistaken for something like a new Final Fantasy Tactics game.

How so? The FFT games always take place in the same setting which has kept it's own unique art style(well shared with FFXII and Vagrant Soul but they all share the same setting) and are always have isometric battle systems as opposed to grid based with cut-aways for battles.