Refa Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 While I do appreciate your opinion, it's really PKL's and Marth's opinions on this that I'd me more interested in weighing in on, considering they will actually be playing in the draft. The rescue-hammerne thing was an oversight on my part, since I was working off of the standard ruleset. I can't see redoing the first pick working. Alternatively, we could fix all of the problems people are having with the ruleset at once by banning the use of warp or rescue on Marth, and just allowing all three staffs. Also Refa, prologue turncounts are not part of your overall total, so you don't have to log it unless you want to. Eh....if you ban Rescue on Marth, I think that makes some character unviable, wherein Marth has to go to a village. Wait, prologue turns aren't counted? Crap, I'm redoing the whole thing then so MU can get easy levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 Crap, you're right, how the hell am I going to use Bantu with that ruleset? In all seriousness, a quick scan of the recruitment list shows only Bantu, Tomas and the Wolfguard would be affected by this, and they're all terrible units that should feel ashamed of their existence anyway. With only four people drafting a huge cast, you'll have plenty of units, and nothing forces you to recruit them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Crap, you're right, how the hell am I going to use Bantu with that ruleset? Bantu = top tier. Why noone has drafted him is baffling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Banning rescue completely poses problems in chapters where marth HAS to visit villages like ch9, ch18 and ch21. Im all for banning hammerne on rescue always but it would be kinda unfair for refa i guess. On the other hand, marth and I could stand a chance against refa...which motivates me to play :p. He could grab hammerine to use it on again anyways which makes up for the turns malliesia and hammerine take...without the stupid brokeness of rescue repairing lol. And its not like malliesia is such a terrible first pick without the rescue repairing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kngt_Of_Titania Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) While I do appreciate your opinion, it's really PKL's and Marth's opinions on this that I'd me more interested in weighing in on, considering they will actually be playing in the draft. The rescue-hammerne thing was an oversight on my part, since I was working off of the standard ruleset. I can't see redoing the first pick working. I understand. It's your draft, and it's obviously your guys' decision. I'm not trying to be a dick to Refa, it's just that it'll be really hard for anybody else to win if Refa has even a vague idea of how to abuse Hammerne-Rescue -- I would've pointed it out earlier (before the first pick) if I had noticed it. No need to ban rescue, though. Rescue itself helps to minimize turn losses by recruiting certain characters. Edited February 25, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 ban hammerne on rescue and it's more or less balanced, as the turns it takes to get hammerne are made up by using again, I would think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) I still don't get why this is any worse than Rescue Leaf from FE4 or even Rescue Lana, but that never gets banned. Honestly, I got last pick, so any of you could've picked her before me. Why didn't you? Also I can't seem to find past drafts where Hammerine/Rescue has been banned, maybe I'm mispelling Hammerine or whatever, but yeah... Edited February 26, 2012 by Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kngt_Of_Titania Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Honestly, I got last pick, so any of you could've picked her before me. Why didn't you? Also I can't seem to find past drafts where Hammerine/Rescue has been banned, maybe I'm mispelling Hammerine or whatever, but yeah... People tend to naturally assume that Hammerne is banned, I would guess, since it does break drafts. Mal's BIG benefit is hammerne-rescue; she's more of a second or third pick material without it, since you want to get a Altean!Cav or one of the three pegasus sisters or Sirius on your team ASAP. The OP basically said he forgot to put it in by accident since he did a copy-pasta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Sal Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 This whole topic is just a reiteration of things I have already stated, guys, I made an entire topic out of it, why do you always talk about it here in draft topics? :( The Rescue chain i stated long before already, no one listened, hammerne I stated, no one did anything. I'll just keep whining somewhere where i'll be ignored... I'll be surprised if Refa will beat my Tc though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 What draft are you talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 He made a separate topic about general FE12 drafting and Mal and rescue and hammerne and etc, it wasn't a draft itself (unless i'm stupid and missed something) It's quite clear that anybody competant with Hammerne!Rescue Mal has a clear advantage over the rest of the cast. Otherwise, she's a mediocre pick at best, she costs two turns and Hammerne costs 4, and she enables 6 extra uses of again, so she's just an earlyjoining staffbot otherwise, which is pretty unimpressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious Sal Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 He made a separate topic about general FE12 drafting and Mal and rescue and hammerne and etc, it wasn't a draft itself (unless i'm stupid and missed something) It's quite clear that anybody competant with Hammerne!Rescue Mal has a clear advantage over the rest of the cast. Otherwise, she's a mediocre pick at best, she costs two turns and Hammerne costs 4, and she enables 6 extra uses of again, so she's just an earlyjoining staffbot otherwise, which is pretty unimpressive. Exactly, and I made the topic because everyone wanted it all discussed and sorted out, and when I took the time, nobody discussed it there, and went back to the topics. Sorry for the rant, but it kinda pissed me off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) He made a separate topic about general FE12 drafting and Mal and rescue and hammerne and etc, it wasn't a draft itself (unless i'm stupid and missed something) It's quite clear that anybody competant with Hammerne!Rescue Mal has a clear advantage over the rest of the cast. Otherwise, she's a mediocre pick at best, she costs two turns and Hammerne costs 4, and she enables 6 extra uses of again, so she's just an earlyjoining staffbot otherwise, which is pretty unimpressive. There are several units like that who aren't banned. What about Lana? Rescue Leaf? Karin? Tethys (there's a reason she's free in most drafts)? Florina? Edited February 26, 2012 by Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 There are several units like that who aren't banned. What about Lana? Rescue Leaf? Karin? Tethys (there's a reason she's free in most drafts)? Florina? Claude!Lana should never exist, and she saves like, one turn in chapter 8, Shin beat me when I had rescue Leaf with Corple as his rescuer, there aren't enough FE5 drafts, but yeah Karin is OP, dancers should always be free, and Florina is really only OP when Lyn Mode exists, which should theoretically be never. This is different as FE12's only real elements are running Marth to the throne, since there are very few mechanics in this game. having 12 more charges of rescue is at minimum 6 turns that the other players have literally no chance to make up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) Then maybe future FE12 drafts should make Malliesia free, or ban Hammerine on Rescue. I don't really want that to happen now though, because it would devalue my 1st pick. Sure you COULD just let me take someone else's first pick, but that'd basically require everyone to redraft from the 1st pick and drafting is taking way too damn long as it is. Also, again, don't see any other FE12 drafts were Hammerine is banned, don't see what's the big deal about letting me have it for now. It's not like this is something that this draft has overlooked, FE12 drafts, to my limited knowledge, have always been like this. Edited February 26, 2012 by Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 There is one FE12 draft that wen hosted that banned it. Also, what part of malliesia + hammerne/rescue breaks the balance of the draft, do you not understand? This is a 4 man FE12 draft, normally they are 6-7 player drafts. We get more units than normal, making up for the malliesia first pick...You dont need more than 3 earlygame units to beat the game in the same amount of turns as the rest of us. But if you have hammerne on rescue allowed, marth and I will lose by 6+ turns no matter how brilliant we play. If you dont see anything wrong with that then, wow...also, when is marth gonna pick? >.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) There is one FE12 draft that wen hosted that banned it. Also, what part of malliesia + hammerne/rescue breaks the balance of the draft, do you not understand? This is a 4 man FE12 draft, normally they are 6-7 player drafts. We get more units than normal, making up for the malliesia first pick...You dont need more than 3 earlygame units to beat the game in the same amount of turns as the rest of us. But if you have hammerne on rescue allowed, marth and I will lose by 6+ turns no matter how brilliant we play. If you dont see anything wrong with that then, wow...also, when is marth gonna pick? >.> Then maybe you should've picked Malliesia. I'm saying that there are other game breaking characters who go totally unpunished, and if you want to change the rules next time, fine by me, but I don't want to see my pick devalued this time just because you're sore about losing out on turns. This isn't SFDTT. Just like if someone manages to get Levin/Tiltyu they deserve to get Holsety Arthur, I feel like I deserve to get Hammerine Malliesia (it's not like I was first pick and everyone else just got fucked because of it; everyone else chose NOT to pick her for whatever reason). It's unfair of you to change the rules after the drafting has already begun if not everyone is in agreement about the changes. And ignorance is not an acceptable response to not picking Malliesia, BTW. Edited February 26, 2012 by Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Well, i for one didnt pick her first because i thought hammerne was banned from being used on rescue as of late...but i was wrong. Why should we appeal to only one person as opposed to everyone? I play drafts for fun, and im sorry i cant have fun if i know that whatever i do, i will lose the draft. Its just...dumb. If i had malliesia, i would still vouch for a rule change, mind you. Im not selfish. Also, you only really need palla to low turn an H1 draft. Stop being so butthurt because your first pick was "devalued" when you have freaking palla of all people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) Well, i for one didnt pick her first because i thought hammerne was banned from being used on rescue as of late...but i was wrong. Why should we appeal to only one person as opposed to everyone? I play drafts for fun, and im sorry i cant have fun if i know that whatever i do, i will lose the draft. Its just...dumb. If i had malliesia, i would still vouch for a rule change, mind you. Im not selfish. Also, you only really need palla to low turn an H1 draft. Stop being so butthurt because your first pick was "devalued" when you have freaking palla of all people. Fine, I'll go for the rule change. Just kinda upset I can't get something brokenly awesome for once. I still don't see how this is any worse than say, Holsety!Arthur, but hey, if it upsets the other draftees that much, then I can go without it. Although Hammerine is now...useless. Great. EDIT And my first pick was devalued. I would've picked Catria instead, so I'd have 2 Pegasus Knights. You can't honestly just say "Pffft, you have ONE overpowered unit, therefore all of your other picks can go die in a fire". Just the same way that you can't have fun when you know for sure that you can't win, I don't find it fun when I get screwed out of a unit thanks to everyone else conveniently forgetting how broken that is until I get it, and then the complaining ensues to have it banned. Malliesia has no place on my team now. Rescue? Yumina does it. Nosferatu? Yumina does it? Hammerine? Costs turns and so does Malliesia. So now I'm the only one that loses out... Edited February 26, 2012 by Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Ok cool. Its not useless though. You get more again staff uses, which i think breaks even. +2 from getting malliesia, + 4 from hammerne. 2 agains save 2 turns so ur at -4. repair. 2 more agains. -2. repair and 2 more agains means +1, not to mention the remaining 3. Heh, she makes up for it with +1 again over everyone else. But that is more balanced than 4+4+4+5 rescues...which means like 12 turns over the others...shrug. Also, correct me if im wrong, but isnt levin! artur beaten all the time by the broken 3 players of FE4? (horace, integ and shin) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) Only one of my next two posts contains any meaningful substance. It's up to you, the reader, to guess which one. Edited February 26, 2012 by Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Ok cool. Its not useless though. You get more again staff uses, which i think breaks even. +2 from getting malliesia, + 4 from hammerne. 2 agains save 2 turns so ur at -4. repair. 2 more agains. -2. repair and 2 more agains means +1, not to mention the remaining 3. Heh, she makes up for it with +1 again over everyone else. But that is more balanced than 4+4+4+5 rescues...which means like 12 turns over the others...shrug. Also, correct me if im wrong, but isnt levin! artur beaten all the time by the broken 3 players of FE4? (horace, integ and shin) Hmmm, fair enough. Please don't make this mistake again and ban this on the standard rules though. Integ got Levin! Arthur several times, and he even petitioned for it to be banned. So yeah. Anyways, I'm sure the Elite of FE12 could kick my ass Hammerine Malliesia or not, lol. Also, I apologize if I seemed like mad at anyone in particular. I'm just upset at the situation here, not because any of my fellow draftees are assholes or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Its ok. And i didnt know that levin! artur is suspect for banning. Thats how much i know of FE4, lulz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) So now that that big issue is out of the way, we can...go back to waiting for Marth. Arguing > Waiting, lol. Edited February 26, 2012 by Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I just realized i suck at math. You break even. +2 from malliesia, +4 from hammerine = 6. -2 from agains = +4. Repair. +2 more agains = +2. Repair. +2 more agains = break even. Repair. And the normal 3 agains. You might have more again uses then everybody in endgame though which could lead to a 1 turn of medeus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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