Rate the Unit, Day 15: Mordecai

[Elieson]

Snowy, I'm not gonna quote all that you just said, but you criticize different playstyles between players, then at one point, you suggest just letting enemies flock to Oscar to essentially kill themselves.

Also, Mordecai shouldn't be attacking units like Swordmasters, just as Boyd shouldn't. Ilyana can't take 3 hits in a battle (without being healed) ever, but Mordecai won't encounter that problem until post-midgame. Sure, he has a few turns where he isn't slaughtering enemies, but with Smite utility, he certainly isn't useless.

I'dsay that if Lethe is so valuable to your "inefficient, yet efficient" playstyle, because of her ability to enter combat sooner than Mordecai, then your arguments are sort of contradicting themselves.

On paper, he is either providing great combat in most of his chapters in which he encounters it, or provides other characters with quicker access to said combat. So, even when he isn't fighting, he is uniquely useful, in a way that Lethe isn't. Yet he lasts longer with his exceptional durability, has a great support affinity for the slower player who clumps his units, (see Mist, for example), and to those who play slower, those will see him in combat even more.

I'm not quite getting you, and your debates of mixed playstyles, since you don't seem to be referring to one consistent one between ratings.

[BBM]

I don't play very fast. I gave Mia an Energy Drop, more than 1500 BEXP in total, throughout the game, a -Weight and +Might Forge for most of her existence, and Wrath. She was my worst unit. Swords were weak, and her STR was low. She needed a critical to kill anything not a Mage or Archer, even with an effective weapon. She couldn't ORKO half of the Paladins and Laguz with a double Vague Katti critical in the final chapter, as a 20/15 Swordmaster. This was on NM. I can't speak about Ilyana, but Mia is simply not a good unit. She doesn't have good combat abilities. I'll admit, she didn't have supports, but her only support that gives Might is Rhys. Now, I know you like Rhys, but even you can't honestly say his combat is decent. And if, like you say, your Paladins are so durable that Mordecai's meatshielding is unnecessary, then why is Rhys's healing necessary past early/midgame? So why is Rhys coming to lategame chapters? Just to give Mia +3 Mt?

[Colonel M]

Then anything you say on this discussion is irrelevant. Oh hey! I have a new definition for 'good unit'! Any unit who wouldn't be mistaken for a furry! Sorry Reyson, Lethe, Mordi, Muarim, Laguz kings, hawks, and Zihark. You're all useless because stats don't matter. Only what I define as good matters.

Excellent strawman, you must've conveniently missed my post to concede it, correct?

You see, you and I have a rather awkward definition of what we're talking about. Let's look at the question that you presented:

Also, what do you even mean by 'diminishing returns'? Units who would make good use of them throughout the game? Or units who you approve of using them?

Here is the distinct problem by going with just one of each definition, and why both need to be intertwined with each other. Let's use my example from above, as I will quote for reference.

Let's use Boyd vs Titania in this example. In Boyd's side, he can likely double some enemies now, and thus net ORKOes that Ike and Oscar struggle at. He still shows some results with this combat later, as he can double some enemies at 20/1 that he couldn't before. Titania is a unit with little RNG-screwage possibility, good growths to accompany her bases, Knight Ward to help her Spd growth more, and a mount. Now of course, the disadvantage is that she doesn't get immediate results mainly because shea already doubling and taking enemies by storm. It's just as simple as that.

So we weigh between the two on which technically has the least diminishing returns while assuming that we have another Speedwings on the way in Chapter 13. Some may argue Boyd as the favorable choice, while others will argue Titania, or another scenario occurs - we sit on the Speedwings for in favor of another unit like Jill.

So between the three characters which shows the least diminishing returns and when should each unit get theory item? Well, we can possibly throw Boyd out of the equation since the name of the game in FE9 is mount, heal, dance, or gtfo. We can conclude that, since Titania won't likely show a real Spd issue until later in the game, she can obtain Chapter 13s Speedwings and Jill gets Chapter 2s. On the other hand, we could debate Jill vs. Boyd if we wanted to because Boyd exists earlier in the game and gets good results behind it. Chances are, though, Boyd's diminishing returns are higher than Jill's.

You can possibly include anyone in the equation here, but the results are .more than likely the same. Even if you include Haar, his diminishing returns are greater than everyone else listed. Mordecai would also be low on this list. I merely wanted to see if you could even whip a semi legit list of units.

Now let's go purely off the first assumption on stats alone. Now we look at all of these units combined, and then we get a rather skewered list. First off, we aren't determining whatsoever on who has the least diminishing returns (possibly) in this scenario, because we're looking purely at stats alone. You need to clearly define what you mean by stats. In slower playthroughs, Boyd can arguably have more justification for the Speedwing than Jill or Titania because he gives the greatest returns instantly and it doesn't die down throughout the game. The reason I included "Or units who you approve of using them?" is not really because of "hey I like Rolf, I approve of using Speedwings on him", but it's because it's not exactly me, but the objective also taken by the player, that approves of using [the item] on [the character(s)]. Let's go right back to what I discussed. Purely by stats, Ilyana could get the Speedwings. She has a small deficiency in it, and her base is tolerable. But that is possibly looking at that stat alone. Are we looking purely at the stat in question, or all of the stats (including Movement, which you don't seem to include) in general? This is important, because without Movement taken into account:

- Boyd > Ilyana > Titania > Jill

because Boyd has the greatest returns between the two while Titania has access to the Speedwings in question much earlier than Jill. Note that this partially disregards the Chapter 13 Speedwings at the moment, but we'll get there. Now we hit Chapter 13, and Boyd has already used the Speedwing. So now we have Titania vs. Jill vs. Ilyana. But if we look at their stats at that certain point of the game, Jill could technically need the Speedwings more than Titania now, but Titania might need the Speedwings more later than Jill does. Then we have Ilyana, which if she was missed she might need the Speedwings now and later through the game. So what decision do we make purely on stats? Ilyana because she needs them meow, or Titania and Jill because they have mounted Movement? This is partially where your second part of the question comes in.

Fire Emblem has its own "playstyles", shall we say, and thus this creates a "personal" preference to where resources go. In a strictly low turncount game, which is closer to dondon's view, Jill and Titania are pretty much guaranteed the Speedwings unless we find other possible mounted units that could use it. In a "casual efficient" playthrough, which is probably closer to something around Interceptor's viewpoint, the player doesn't make a decision strictly on the lowest turncount in general and might consider a few "casual" tweaks with it. This isn't to say that Interceptor made purely inefficient decisions, but for example he used Mia with his other Top / High Tier bad asses. His turncounts may not be as low as dondon's, but they're usually fairly close (or in some cases like FE11's a little lower in theory). Then we hit something closer to yours, which I just call plain "casual" style of gameplay. There is no real objective to the game other than... well, what you prefer. And that's fine to a point.

Another major contributing factor does hinge on personal preference due to tastes in characters and what not. This is a little closer to the "casual efficient" playthrough, though sometimes it can be exercised in a strictly low turncount game. I don't think I have to play Captain Obvious on Casual gameplay assuming that they'll use their favorites here and there. It's only natural. While I speak mostly on an efficient standpoint which, in FE9, is Mount Glory, to some others such as possibly whase and yourself it obviously isn't. In a scenario such as mine, I obviously wouldn't use Ilyana, so my choice of Speedwings for Chapter 2 come down to 3 potential candidates. On the other hand, yours could have a potential case for 5 (Rhys, Ilyana, Jill, Boyd, Brom), but while I possibly choose Jill because it helps her start, you may choose Ilyana to help her perform better and Interceptor would pick Boyd for showing his returns early on. Then we might have someone like aku chi who might use it on Titania. I'm not saying that's what everyone would do here, it's merely an example.

For a tl;dr version, the primary reason it is a combination of both assumptions is this: the player has their own preferences, which cannot be controlled by stats alone. Stats alone can make decision making on optimal resource distribution easy in theory, but the second faction is what stops tier lists, ranking topics, and other things from going "max efficient". You know, the one thing you really hate as shown by your post: "Mia and Ilyana are used properly by people who are not obsessed with speed and who don't have resources with-held from them by people whose sole focus in the game is to score as low a turncount as possible." to which my rebuttal is also "Mordecai is used properly by people who are not obsessed with just accepting that he can Smite good units further towards an objective or, if the player isn't obsessed with the sole focus in the game to score as low a turncount as possible, to just wait for his gauge to fill up to rape shit with his Movement." If you have time to wait for Mia and Ilyana to catch up, you have time to wait for Mordecai.

To be clear, I don't exactly approve of Mordecai as anything when it comes to a combat unit and see him personally as nothing more but a Shove / Smite-bot, but under your "standards" (which are flimsy at best), there is no justification on where the player can't use a Laguz Stone or wait for Mordecai to be used, or even to bait him to enemies that aren't impending your objective.

So... You can't imagine a situation where Mordi doesn't have smite to compare to the situations where he does to determine just how much it's worth and instead you assume it is instant awesome? Scientists must love you (note: the word 'Scientist' here is not the English word and is rather part of an obscure dialect spoken by the long-extinct rhino-pygmys from Pluto where it means 'Witch Doctor'. Apologies if there is any confusion with actual scientists).

Can you imagine Jill without wings? Or even better:

[23:50:35] <dondon> what if rhys couldn't heal

[23:50:52] <dondon> oh wait it wouldn't make a difference

Edited April 11, 2012 by Colonel M

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Despite spectacular attack ability and Smite, Mordecai falls behind quickly. He can't double later on, a lot later than Lethe, and lacks Muarim's sheer statistical superiority.

That doesn't mean he's not valuable. He OHKOes a decent amount of enemies in early and midgame, and will set up kills for lots of other units. Once he transforms he can tank, and he deserves most of the Laguz Stones for a while.

4.5/10

[Hawk King]

@ Snowy

Modecai's Smiting abilities are good for the same reason Reyson's Galdrar is good. It enhances a units existing abilities. Obviously Smite doesnt come close to Singing, but if you use it right you can make any 5-7 move unit have +2 to their movement FOR EVERY TURN.

If having low-movement units move farther doesnt "fit your playstyle" does that mean you sell the Boots (or not get them)? You probably take celerity off Tormod too, huh?

Im not trying to bash you, Snowy. Im just trying inform you. You obviously rated Modecai based solely on his combat abilities, and from that stand point i think you over-rated him. You are just massively under-rating his Smite utility.

I gave Mordy a 4. Without Smite i would probably give him a 2. Smite is just that useful. No matter what your playstyle is, you should be able to find a use for it.

[Onmi]

Untransformed Mordecai upon being attacked

*tink*

"Would you like another go? I can keep standing still if you'd like" Mordecai is a TANK who will literally eat attacks and either kill or main anything attacking him at Range 1, he also gets Smite which makes 1 turning Astrid and Gatrie easy as pie, so I give Mordetank 7/10 with a bias point. Yes he'll never be AS good as the Beorc units, but he'll never really fail to do his job, slow transformation kinda hurts

[OrangeCrush980]

If having low-movement units move farther doesnt "fit your playstyle" does that mean you sell the Boots (or not get them)? You probably take celerity off Tormod too, huh?

A pair of boots does not take up a deployment slot.

[Hawk King]

Obviously Mordecai isnt going to be deployed on every single map. But there alot of Chapters with more than enough deployment slots for Mordecai to come along.

[Zman]

Isn't clearing maps quickly a good idea in this game? You know, for more BEXP? His ability to smite mounted units helps immensely, and his defense is very high. Not very good with combat later on, but smite is more than enough reason to deploy him when you've got room.

7/10

[Shadow Mir]

7/10. Takes a while to transform, but once he does, he can really lay the hurt on foes. And as an aside, unlike Lethe, RD didn't hurt his usefulness that badly.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Metal King Slime

[Snowy_One]

Snowy, I'm not gonna quote all that you just said, but you criticize different playstyles between players, then at one point, you suggest just letting enemies flock to Oscar to essentially kill themselves.

I don't have a problem with other playstyles. I have a problem with people who take LTC/'Efficiency' and feel it should be the sole defining metric as to how a unit should be graded. Look at this debate right now. I gave Mordi a low score because I don't value Smite and feel he takes too long/is too slow to be of real use, and we've had another debate erupt. You want to value him for his ability to smite Jill? I think you're stupid, but go right ahead. Just don't try to tell me I'm wrong for not valuing something the same way as you.

I'dsay that if Lethe is so valuable to your "inefficient, yet efficient" playstyle, because of her ability to enter combat sooner than Mordecai, then your arguments are sort of contradicting themselves.

Maybe I should give Gatrie high ratings then because his high weight lets him shove/smite other units as well. It's one/two squares on one unit for one turn. I do not consider that 'significant' by any means. At most I would give it +1 rating and that's assuming a large consumption of various alcoholic substances.

I don't play very fast. I gave Mia an Energy Drop, more than 1500 BEXP in total, throughout the game, a -Weight and +Might Forge for most of her existence, and Wrath. She was my worst unit. Swords were weak, and her STR was low. She needed a critical to kill anything not a Mage or Archer, even with an effective weapon. She couldn't ORKO half of the Paladins and Laguz with a double Vague Katti critical in the final chapter, as a 20/15 Swordmaster. This was on NM. I can't speak about Ilyana, but Mia is simply not a good unit. She doesn't have good combat abilities. I'll admit, she didn't have supports, but her only support that gives Might is Rhys. Now, I know you like Rhys, but even you can't honestly say his combat is decent. And if, like you say, your Paladins are so durable that Mordecai's meatshielding is unnecessary, then why is Rhys's healing necessary past early/midgame? So why is Rhys coming to lategame chapters? Just to give Mia +3 Mt?

Rhys has powerful single-strike attacks. Not saying that's good at all, just that it's there. Secondly, Mia's element is fire. ALL her supports give her attack as a result! It may only be 2 with a A/B, but it is there. Thirdly, PEMN.

Isn't clearing maps quickly a good idea in this game? You know, for more BEXP? His ability to smite mounted units helps immensely, and his defense is very high. Not very good with combat later on, but smite is more than enough reason to deploy him when you've got room.

Not exactly. From a purely 'maximum bonus' perspective, it's not. There is a 'turn limit' to every chapter for BEXP. If you get 1000 BEXP in a chapter and the turn limit is 9, it doesn't matter if you clear it in 3, 6, or 9 turns, you get the same BEXP. However, taking your time means more normal EXP as you clear more enemies, not to mention more loot and such. So it hurts you to beat a chapter ASAP and it's better to run up to the turn limit if possible. Movement does have advantages, but I would not consider 'clearing a chapter faster' to be one of them for anyone not obsessed with low turn counts.

If having low-movement units move farther doesnt "fit your playstyle" does that mean you sell the Boots (or not get them)? You probably take celerity off Tormod too, huh?

I already have enough gold and I have no reason to remove Celerity unless another skill comes along of great value.

Excellent strawman, you must've conveniently missed my post to concede it, correct?

You see, you and I have a rather awkward definition of what we're talking about. Let's look at the question that you presented

My point is that you said that 'only units you approve of' is part of your definition as to who should get the speedwings. At that point anything else becomes irrelevant because of the amount of personal bias contained within. Unit X may make very good use of the wings, but not fit your playstyle, meaning he won't even be considered as a result while unit Y makes very poor use of them but matches your playstyle, so bang! Speedwing for them.

Here is the distinct problem by going with just one of each definition, and why both need to be intertwined with each other. Let's use my example from above, as I will quote for reference.

I would say that if Ilyana is used, the wing should go to her as the other units either have an alternative (leveling for Jill) or will be fine for the majority of the game (Titania). Of course, I would also assume that every unit would try to equip a band and decide which bands are most likely to go to whom (Ilyana is one of the better choices for a SPD band) and such. Boyd, for example, might not get a wing if it could be shown that a speedwing is only slightly better than a band for him, but could be much better spent elsewhere. I would much rather consider the pros/cons of both items/bands and the usage of items on units as well as their implications than making a list of 'this unit should get X and Y getting X means they can't get it so Y shouldn't have X'.

Can you imagine Jill without wings? Or even better:

Yup. Depending on if she were mounted, or footed. Heck, I can imagine her without ARMOR! It's not that hard. I just figure out what the specific aspect does and replace it with the equivalent adjusted. For example, Mordi without Smite means he can only shove by 1 square. How much do I use that extra square? Where is it valuable? Where is it redundant? Never, I don't even shove, and always for me. Jill without flying means she's basically a paladin. Rhys without healing is... Well... How the heck would he level? That aside, it's no different than if he only used his tome on promotion. High-damage single strikes with little, if any, chance to double.

[Hawk King]

WTF Snowy!

You responded to my facetious question and ignored everything else.

The worst part about it is that you actually gave a serious answer.

I was joking...

[Colonel M]

My point is that you said that 'only units you approve of' is part of your definition as to who should get the speedwings.

Uh no, I said "a combination of both". That does not mean that I favor in directly one direction, but favor both. Why? We'll use your statement later:

At that point anything else becomes irrelevant because of the amount of personal bias contained within. Unit X may make very good use of the wings, but not fit your playstyle, meaning he won't even be considered as a result while unit Y makes very poor use of them but matches your playstyle, so bang! Speedwing for them.

I would say that if Ilyana is used, the wing should go to her as the other units either have an alternative (leveling for Jill) or will be fine for the majority of the game (Titania). Of course, I would also assume that every unit would try to equip a band and decide which bands are most likely to go to whom (Ilyana is one of the better choices for a SPD band) and such. Boyd, for example, might not get a wing if it could be shown that a speedwing is only slightly better than a band for him, but could be much better spent elsewhere. I would much rather consider the pros/cons of both items/bands and the usage of items on units as well as their implications than making a list of 'this unit should get X and Y getting X means they can't get it so Y shouldn't have X'.

Okay, I can prove that by stats alone, Ilyana will never get the Speedwings. If I go by who has the highest base stay to prevent RNG screwing, then it would go to Titania since she can use it ASAP. If I consider who has the greatest returns alone, I give it to Boyd because he shows the greatest results throughout the game. If I consider who has the lowest stats, I give it to Rhys because, well I don't want him doubled!

What about Soren, or Ike even who struggles to double earlygame? Surely they can make use of the item by their mediocre stats alone, right? And I know Oscar has always been rocky on Speed, so I could just slap it on him so his Spd stat is more reliable. Problem solved NASA, I just found the best way to Mars! They are not mutually excluded. They cannot be mutually excluded. One side helps define the other.

Yup. Depending on if she were mounted, or footed. Heck, I can imagine her without ARMOR!

Perv.

But how can Jill exist on a team without Armor? If she's a foot unit and has no armor, her existance is irrelevant. If she has a.mount, which she does, she's not able to exercise any combat and possibly has other issues such as entering Ballistae / Seige times. With flight, she's just a Thany. That isn't bad, but why are we examining units on a [really stupid] individual basis, when it takes the entire character's structure to determine their worth? Even though Thany has pitiful offense, her flight utility is highly appreciated (no pun intended). If I purely focus that Reyson has terrible durability, why bother fielding him? Because its simple: Galdrar overrides a lot of these cons.

Mordecai may not have offense in a LTC / Casual Efficiency standpoint, but both still value his Smite. If you don't value his Smite and Shove utility, and he's too slow, why a 4? He should be somewhere even lower than that. If his combat comes too late, he's inferior in Demi-Band, and his Spd is too slow, then reflect that in your rating more! If I rated that he didn't have Smite at all (which is a regards reason, but whatever) he would probably get a 2/10 from you... And a 1/10 for me! But as the scientist you are (not to be confused with modern day scientists, but the witch doctors), you seem to continue to amaze me further with:

It's not that hard. I just figure out what the specific aspect does and replace it with the equivalent adjusted. For example, Mordi without Smite means he can only shove by 1 square. How much do I use that extra square? Where is it valuable? Where is it redundant? Never, I don't even shove, and always for me. Jill without flying means she's basically a paladin. Rhys without healing is... Well... How the heck would he level? That aside, it's no different than if he only used his tome on promotion. High-damage single strikes with little, if any, chance to double.

And this quote should prove that you should rate Mordecai even lower than what you have.

[BBM]

Rhys has powerful single-strike attacks. Not saying that's good at all, just that it's there. Secondly, Mia's element is fire. ALL her supports give her attack as a result! It may only be 2 with a A/B, but it is there. Thirdly, PEMN.

My mistake. A Rhys and B someone else now gives her 4 extra Might. Keep in mind that her "someone else" is Ilyana or Largo. They're not that great either. Now you're fielding TWO units who aren't good to make Mia better. And in this case, PEME. You said that Mia and Ilyana are great when they are given sufficient resources, but that people like Colonel M never do. I provided you an example where Mia received everything she might want (statboosters, forges, Wrath), other than supports, where she still sucked, because the only way she can contribute to ANY playthrough is combat, and her combat is bad. Plus, it is not personal experience to say that Swords are weak and her Strength is low. That is fact. Swords are the physical weapon with the lowest Mt and Mia is tied with a couple other people for lowest STR growth for a physical character.

[Shadow Mir]

Mia is tied with a couple other people for lowest STR growth for a physical character.

Actually, Elincia has the lowest Str growth for a physical character.

[BBM]

Actually, Elincia has the lowest Str growth for a physical character.

Eh, didn't scroll that far down. Mia's is still low.