RNG Abuse

[Ciarre]

Why don't we just have a 100% crit draft or something?

[Refa]

Why don't we just have a 100% crit draft or something?

That is a terrible, terrible, idea.

[Integrity]

That is a terrible, terrible, idea.

We had a 0% Growths draft. It can't really be much worse.

[Othin]

Why don't we just have a 100% crit draft or something?

I would join that in an instant if it was possible on console.

[Refa]

We had a 0% Growths draft. It can't really be much worse.

Fair enough. It's not really an effective solution to RNG abusing though. Sorta changes a lot about which units you'd want to pick.

Person 1- "People keep on RNG abusing for 1% crits!"

Person 2- "Why don't we do a 100% crits draft?"

Edited April 22, 2012 by Refa

[Toothache]

I would join that in an instant if it was possible on console.

RNG manipulation is possible on console. Methinks you need to be more clear about what criteria you actually object to.

[Espinosa]

I think he means hacking the game so that every attack is a crit (not rigging every individual attack).

[aku chi]

My thoughts on the matter.

I'm actually rather surprised that there are so few SF denizens who appreciate playing the game without reseting to avoid undesired (random) events.

[Othin]

I think he means hacking the game so that every attack is a crit (not rigging every individual attack).

Yeah, I'm assuming we're talking about that patch where every weapon has a crit rate of 200.

[Toothache]

What I am trying to understand is - do you have problems with something that can be replicated on consoles? Because a lot of what you seem to be having issue with IS possible.

As I pointed out before, the knowledge is out there now about how the RNG works and how it can be manipulated. It does no good to cherish ignorance or claim that you should play things a certain way, as if the knowledge wasn't out there and we should all work in blind ignorance. After all, the developers of the game deliberately intended it so the games can be played in many different ways.

[aku chi]

Yeah, I'm assuming we're talking about that patch where every weapon has a crit rate of 200.

That's not all.

The "logical end-result of unfettered RNG abuse" patch would feature the following qualities:

- Enemy units have 0% hit and 0% skill activation.

- Player/Allied/Other units have 100% hit, 100% crit, and 100% skill activation.

- Player units always receive perfect level-ups.

- Player units always find hidden treasure.

- FE10 Coins always provide +3 Mt to forges (unless this is your last Coin, in which case you would receive a Raven card).

[Toothache]

I think you're taking this 'logical step' a little too far. No-one is arguing for unrestricted RNG manipulation on that sort of level. What people are saying is that some RNG manipulation is necessary and should be encouraged for certain situations. If people want to take the time to manipulate crits on every hit or whatever, that really should be up to them, but that's a pretty impractical and slow approach. Believe me, I know from experience.

If you've taken the time to watch any of the TAS playthroughs, or any of my TAS WIPs, or even some of the realtime runs available (Vykan12's FE10 speedrun springs to mind) you'd know that even with the knowledge of exactly what RNs are upcoming and the ability to manipulate them quickly, there are still limits on what can be achieved. Even in realtime, without the luxury of scripts or savestates, those limits become greater, but it is still possible to rig enough events in your favour to manage an easier time with playing through the game. The fact that some people choose to use this ability and some people don't seems to be the real issue here.

Not everyone is going to agree that any sort of RNG manipulation should be allowed. Unfortunately, that can never be the case. RNGing is something of an integral part to many draft runs, going back to examples such as Henning, or even allowing for a Killer critical on a boss or particularly annoying enemy. People know how to do it, it's a common example, and it's not going to stop because some people disagree. It's also both impossible and impractical to try and place some sort of limit on how much RNG manipulation should be allowed. This should be at the discretion of the player. What seems to have developed is a case of either acceptable use of RNG manipulation and those that are not acceptable. Rigging hits, high range crits, and even some level ups fall into this category. Rigging for low range crits and excessive stat growths seems to be not acceptable.

This sort of status quo around how much RNG manipulation has developed from the nature of drafting itself. By its nature, it's impossible to monitor, enforce or manage any of the draft players and what they do in their games. An honour-based system has developed, with a very grey area surrounding certain aspects of drafting. People are encouraged, but not necessarily required to keep logs. There are some definites in drafting too, like recording of turn counts, not using undrafted units without penalty and so on. RNG manipulation falls into a grey area, and that's where it should stay, in my opinion. Personally I feel people should be free to use as much or as little as they feel they need, but that should be balanced with how much time you want to spend in each chapter and how much you want to compromise with the RNG. It's a grey area, and while people may be uncomfortable with this fact, there's really not a whole lot you can do to prevent RNG manipulation, and not a whole lot you can do to enforce any strict guidelines or rules about it either.

It's this uncertainty that I think a lot of people have issue with.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Toothache

[Othin]

What I am trying to understand is - do you have problems with something that can be replicated on consoles? Because a lot of what you seem to be having issue with IS possible.

As I pointed out before, the knowledge is out there now about how the RNG works and how it can be manipulated. It does no good to cherish ignorance or claim that you should play things a certain way, as if the knowledge wasn't out there and we should all work in blind ignorance. After all, the developers of the game deliberately intended it so the games can be played in many different ways.

The developers intended that sometimes, your 95% attack would miss. Sometimes, your enemy's 20% attack would hit. Sometimes, you would take a low% crit from an enemy. All of this might happen at some times when you might not want it to. And your own luck, like scoring crits, would be a nice bonus, rather than something you could expect to happen when you would want it to.

When this is changed, when you make it so that events don't happen randomly at the chances they were set to happen, but instead they happen when you want them to happen, that's what I take issue with. Don't get me wrong: there are times when it has merits. dondon is working on a beautiful FE6 speedrun where he manipulates RNs frequently, and because he's working in real time, the time itself acts as a penalty and as a restriction. But while it's a beautiful performance, it seems to me an entirely separate matter from playing the game, being the tactician and leading your soldiers into battles with uncertain outcomes that might not fit your plans, and having to devise new plans to deal with unexpected occurrences.

[Toothache]

Who are you to tell people how to play the game?

[Othin]

I'm just questioning your definition of "playing the game".

[Toothache]

I'm not trying to define how to play the game. People should be free to play how they like. If anyone is defining how to play the game, it is you

[Anouleth]

The developers intended that sometimes, your 95% attack would miss. Sometimes, your enemy's 20% attack would hit.

We can play guessing games all day about what the developer "intended", but ultimately it doesn't matter. People don't (and shouldn't) play games according to the developer's script of what the player should and shouldn't be doing.

[Othin]

Yeah, but the thing is...

Well, uh...

HEY LOOK A DISTRACTION

flees thread