scorri Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Oh. Right. He can just say who was investigated N0. >_> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strawman Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 ...why all this night phase claiming? Hmm, I'm ok with this plan actually, but I don't like how its so out in the open. Curse you NOC. Claiming oracle isn't really want you want to do as oracle, but at least this way we get good use out of it. Though I have to wonder, why are we assuming vig? And on the other hand why are we assuming no doc? I've been in games with doc and martyr, its a possibility both exist. And I bring this up because with your plan and assume no doctor (which it looks like youre doing)if we lose both martyr and oracle, that leaves our cop, if he turns out cop, completely helpless next night, right? Of course, I don't know if it could be avoided or not, but I'm a little worried about all these targets people are painting on their heads. Not to mention now that you just listed off a to of actions, any possibly blocking/redirecting mafia roles are going to have a treat disrupting our plans. I'm a little worried if this will actually work or not, no matter how good it looks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Oh, before I forgot. Iris, I expect a lot from you, considering Shinori did absolutely nothing. Of course, this probably looks pretty hypocritical coming from me at this point, but I have to put it out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 And goddammit, did I not just admonish against claims in my big return post, which came before 13th went and opened up? There are better ways of responding to Prims calling for a vig to make an example of you. From a hasty pov I can see how you may have thought this was a good idea... but seriously? The riskiest alternative would be to simply breadcrumb your N0 result, and hope the vig is not of the trigger happy variety, a more conservative approach would have been you calmly outlining a more suspicious target, or instead having favored the other suggested approach of vigging the oracle. You were by no means locked in as a 100% death target, and jumped far too quickly to claim, something which I gather is a bit of a habit of yours, considering your performance as a persuader. (For the love of all things rational, please don't go off and fake-claim jester/fool to try to cover up for it this time. I can't stand a repeat performance of that.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snike Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 So, basically, if I read this right, practically half the game outed their roles in the night phase. In the first killing night of the game. Brilliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helios Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 ...why all this night phase claiming? Hmm, I'm ok with this plan actually, but I don't like how its so out in the open. Curse you NOC. Claiming oracle isn't really want you want to do as oracle, but at least this way we get good use out of it. Though I have to wonder, why are we assuming vig? And on the other hand why are we assuming no doc? I've been in games with doc and martyr, its a possibility both exist. And I bring this up because with your plan and assume no doctor (which it looks like youre doing)if we lose both martyr and oracle, that leaves our cop, if he turns out cop, completely helpless next night, right? Of course, I don't know if it could be avoided or not, but I'm a little worried about all these targets people are painting on their heads. Not to mention now that you just listed off a to of actions, any possibly blocking/redirecting mafia roles are going to have a treat disrupting our plans. I'm a little worried if this will actually work or not, no matter how good it looks. This is a good point. Seeing as this is the night phase, and mafia are allowed to speak with one another, they're probably discussing how to completely take down this plan with little effort. I understand where Prims is coming from with this whole thing, as it's at least something to work with, and we could garner some solid info, but the fact that the mafia can calmly create a plan to disrupt all this can put us all back at square one. I realized this before, but if we still go with the plan, and it fails, that means we know for a fact there's a mafia roleblocker. So even if the plan fails, we still get info from it all (though not as much as if it succeeds). So, basically, if I read this right, practically half the game outed their roles in the night phase. In the first killing night of the game. Brilliant. Yeah does this normally happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I know that apologies aren't necessary for missing phase end, but I wanted to say why I was gone. And I am ashamed of my D1 performance, so when D2 rolls around I will absolutely contribute more. I am new when it comes to mafia, so while I know the ropes and stuff, my scumhunting abilities are piss-poor. Scum-hunting is one of the hardest skills to hone, and admittedly I don't do so well myself on it more times than not. I probably have more instances of pushing for incorrect reads and lynching innocents than I do of ferreting out guilty, most especially in the early days of a game. However, as the body of contributions from all players grows, catching contradictions, or inconsistencies becomes more possible. If you have time and a suspicion, it can seldom hurt to reread things said to see how they line up with information that wasn't always available the first time around. And remember as this is a game, while you should play seriously and with intent to win, don't take any criticisms, "attacks", or complaints too harshly. They tend to be used more to motivate or to agitate for responses and reaction testing rather than being genuine indicators of hatred or ill-will. ...why all this night phase claiming? Hmm, I'm ok with this plan actually, but I don't like how its so out in the open. Curse you NOC. Claiming oracle isn't really want you want to do as oracle, but at least this way we get good use out of it. Though I have to wonder, why are we assuming vig? And on the other hand why are we assuming no doc? I've been in games with doc and martyr, its a possibility both exist. And I bring this up because with your plan and assume no doctor (which it looks like youre doing)if we lose both martyr and oracle, that leaves our cop, if he turns out cop, completely helpless next night, right? Of course, I don't know if it could be avoided or not, but I'm a little worried about all these targets people are painting on their heads. Not to mention now that you just listed off a to of actions, any possibly blocking/redirecting mafia roles are going to have a treat disrupting our plans. I'm a little worried if this will actually work or not, no matter how good it looks. No doctor is a conservative assumption. He may very well exist, but for the moment it is safer to assume he doesn't, rather than to base plans upon the fact that he does. Further, while in view of simply the claimed roles, while yes, the cop would probably not survive the following night, that is by no means certain, and by no means even the worst case scenario. If for instance, this game were to have a watcher, following Prims' current proposed chain would leave him free to try to find a scum tonight (though honestly, odds finding the killer are not good, given a reasonably intelligent mafia; he'd likely be hunting for hooker or some other questionable activity), and still able to fall back to cover cop the next night, essentially guaranteeing a 1-1 trade provided he doesn't also out himself. Not ideal, but in this situation, I'm hard pressed to come up with better alternatives. Furthermore, your worry about redirectors and blocking isn't as large a one as you make it out to be. Oracle is usually a self-affecting skill, immune to redirection, and the safeguard on the bodyguard would ensure it's accuracy. The hooker is likely just going to stick on the open cop regardless of attempted chains as well, meaning that the long string of protection there doesn't actually net us anything. Barring another town trying an action on the bodyguard to verify the safeguard's claim, we don't get any information there, and we won't get any proof the bodyguard is what he is unless he turns up dead. The main objection I have with Prims' plan is that it is too orthodox, and assumes a simple-minded mafia. A more daring plan would involve the safeguard on the cop, ensuring he gets a result while banking on the mafia being too frightened to target him in the assumption of conservative play. Whatever the case though, if Bizz's role, which she's afraid is detrimental, is single or dual target, rather than omni-target or something completely bizarre, she might as well attempt to target whoever the safeguard does, to ensure our Sailor Moon is who she says she is without fear of mucking up other plans. If it manages to go through because the safeguard claim was bullshit, well, I guess I have no idea what would happen, so she'll just have to weigh those risks on her own. We obviously can't mix all the plans together though, as Bizz testing safeguard requires knowing where he is, and if safeguard is on cop then knowing that would mean dead cop, so obviously we need to proceed carefully, and we are running low on time to get things done. The sad thing is, given the foresight of the roles in question outing themselves, I'm not entirely sure how much their judgement as to best targets can be trusted, or how well we can cooperate on a bolder plan without tipping our hand to the mafia or how likely it is we'd be fucking up the execution. So maybe the simple approach proposed by Prims may end up to be best after all. :shrug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I am the cop, and have proof. Proto, my night 0 predecessor, Investigated Bal. Bal is an important role, and since half the game is roleclaimed already, we don't even want to out another important role. So if I need to out the role to give you the proof, then I will. But in the courtesy to keep Bal secret, I shall hold the info until then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prims Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 "I am scum rolecop" Also fullcop, while not impossible, is OP as shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prims Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 That said: post Bal's character name, have him confirm it for you. This won't give away his actual role or anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grace Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 hmm Stuff happened when I was asleep 13th claiming cop... ugh, that's just silly. If you really are cop, you probably should have waited until D2. There is the possibility of a fakeclaim... Also, I've been reading, just haven't had much to say. And besides, it's night phase, where the mafia can capitalize on the information here before town can. I'd rather not do something stupid and get myself killed, preferably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13th Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I'm not a full cop, Prims. I'm a role cop. If you have Aere get killed and Oracle me, I will be shown as the Town Role Cop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helios Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 I had a feeling Bal had an important role (just because he's a veteran haha). I still however don't think you've proven that you're not scum yet; after all it's very likely there's a mafia role cop in the game. Also, you're lack of willingness to give out Bal's role can be taken in two ways. A) You know Bal is town, and with such an important role you'd rather not have him killed by the Mafia because he'd be a big help for the town. OR B) Bal has a powerful Mafia role (like roleblocker or doctor) and is a huge asset for mafia, and 13th doesn't want to screw mafia over. I'm leaning on B right now personally, but I could be wrong. It's kinda weird that every time we think someone is scummy, they end up claiming they're town with a good role. Something isn't right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prims Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 IF YOU ARE TOWN ROLECOP YOU DO NOT CLAIM TOWN COP I don't understand you people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percivalé Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 ... why is everyone claiming? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prims Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 13th needs to die first thing tomorrow if we don't get an Oracle result confirming him as town. I'm serious. Proper townie response to being pressured during the night phase is to defend yourself, not panick and claim cop only to flub the claim into rolecop immediately after. This is on top of his D1 being insanely scummy. Lynch ASAP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helios Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Wouldn't 13th die regardless now? If he actually was the town role cop, Mafia will probably kill him. If Aere proves that he's actually scum, then we'll end up lynching him. It's a lose-lose situation for you 13th. I really don't see why you'd claim cop. I'm starting to wonder if Mafia is trying to use him as a scapegoat now so we forget about the rest of them. This could be a plan by them. 13th looked scummy anyway and even if he hadn't claimed cop we would have thought of lynching him anyway. So Mafia was like "Yo 13th just fakeclaim as cop (because in reality you have a weaker role than that that isn't TOO important in the large scheme of things), tell them Bal's role is really important so we can keep him alive, and take one for the team. As long as Mafia wins, you win too, so it's all good." I'm trying to get something out of this strangeness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorri Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 But with Prims plan, wouldn't we be protecting 13th? In which case wouldn't it be impossible for the mafia to kill him? So it might not end horribly for 13th, unless of course he ends up showing up as scum. In which case, then yes it would. But what I'm trying to say is that it might not have been the worst mistake ever, even though I guess he might die next night if he does show up as town. All of these claims are kind of confusing me and it's hard to keep track of what each one does. We have a bodyguard which dies in place of the person? Or do they take all actions? Because in that case, wouldn't killing Aere who targeted 13th just show up the bodyguard role? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iris Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 ... why is everyone claiming? ^ This. Fuck school, I'm reading this whole damn thread tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 I'm going to be busy tonight, likely up to and past update, because game night. I'll try to remember to check in to see the carnage, but make no promises on posting until tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strawman Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 IF YOU ARE TOWN ROLECOP YOU DO NOT CLAIM TOWN COP I don't understand you people That could just be inexperience/getting the roles confused/being too lazy to make the distinction couldn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prims Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 13th has been playing long enough that he shouldn't get the roles confused. Rolecop and Cop are not roles you want to get confused, because they're both very useful for town and accidentally getting the Cop to counterclaim you because you claimed Cop instead of Rolecop would be awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorri Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Wait, there could be both a role cop and a full cop? That seems... really overpowered to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grace Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 ... why is everyone claiming? Good question, of which I have no logical answer to. It's far too early to even bother claiming, unless you're about to die. Also, claiming during the night is a bad idea as well. Because, town cannot capitalize on the information presented until the next day, whereas the mafia has full reign, likely to take out the roles that are detrimental to them. It's probably better if we don't claim anymore tonight or tomorrow, unless the cop pulls out a mafia and needs them lynched, or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorri Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Marth confirmed for scum self-watcher tailor. I was rereading and found this. I'm assuming this was a joke? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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