Lord Raven Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 (edited) One of the primary arguments against Gay Marriage anyway is purely in terms of definitions- they define marriage as between a man and a woman. Eradication of marriage allows us to be free of that argument and a strict definition, so inventing another term to take its place is indeed the best way to solve this without the right throwing a fit. That way, in private, anyone can define marriage how they want, but in the name of the law we create a term that merely means "a union of two people" that gives all the rights a modern marriage gives. Edited May 13, 2012 by Lord Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Maybe they should just ban marriage altogether. Think about it. 1. People vow before God to be together for the rest of their lives, when a lot of them don't even make it through the year before wanting a divorce. 2. When a married couple have problems and one cheats, it's considered very bad, wheras if they aren't married, it's still bad, but not as bad. 3. Marriage in general is just a way of establishing ownership over someone and trapping them with you. So if they just abandoned the whole thing and everyone went about their usual business, we'd be a lot better off. Nah. The state banning marriage would be an invasion of religious freedom and even private freedom. It's also a good idea to have the state involved in any sort of separation agreement which isn't amicable. And there are other places where I think the state's involvement is preferable. However, lessening the state's involvement in marriage and other institutions in some ways would not necessarily be a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Related: North Carolina governor Bev Perdue on the Amendment 1 Passage: "We look like Mississippi" Mississippi governor Phil Bryant responds to Perdue's remark It's sad that Perdue has to compare her state to Mississippi because of the NC amendment passage. But it's true. I love that Phil there mentioned that it's petty to make that comparison, but really. Who honestly cares about Mississippi? If it were swallowed by the ocean tomorrow, what would we even lose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Mate Bob Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 In defense of those against homosexuality, at least on the religious side, homosexuality is considered a sin. So them not wanting homosexuality recognized and protected legally is the same as them wanting adultery to be illegal. If it is, in their minds, it's saying it's okay to do something that's a sin. On the flip side, there's so much stuff that's not illegal that religion says is wrong that either the people have to want to radically redefine the laws or are big hypocrites. Then there's the whole thing about the US not being a theocracy. As for people who just think it's wrong, not much to say there. 1. Separation of church and state and whatnot. 2. That's just what the bible says, there are many other religions that are indifferent or support homosexuality, such as some Buddhist sects and Pagan religions such as Wiccan. 3. In Christianity, all sins are of equal value (aside from the "unforgivable sin"). This means that homosexuality holds the same weight as arguing(Pv 17:14; 18:6; Titus 3:9; 2 Tim 2:23), offending people(Mt 13:41; 17:27; Ja 3:2), and not being perfect(Mt 5:48; Gen 17:1; 1 Ki 8:61; 2 Cor 13:11). Like you said, a lot of hypocrisy and double standard going on with that argument. One of the primary arguments against Gay Marriage anyway is purely in terms of definitions- they define marriage as between a man and a woman. Eradication of marriage allows us to be free of that argument and a strict definition, so inventing another term to take its place is indeed the best way to solve this without the right throwing a fit. That way, in private, anyone can define marriage how they want, but in the name of the law we create a term that merely means "a union of two people" that gives all the rights a modern marriage gives. No one would bite, though. People are too attached to the word, whether for tradition's sake or or religion's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sholes Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 I had a discussion with my brother who is a bigoted anti-homosexuality. He says its just wrong to be gay. I was going to ask this in the homosexuality topic in serious discussion, however, its closed. So, how do you even begin to discuss how wrong he is? He said gay people shouldn't have the same right as heterosexual people I just facepalmed. Then went to tell him what he is doing was no different than people before Martin Luther King (forgot the year) were saying about black people... The conversation finished but he still finished with "I still believe its wrong." Did he say why, or is it for no reason? 1. Separation of church and state and whatnot. 2. That's just what the bible says, there are many other religions that are indifferent or support homosexuality, such as some Buddhist sects and Pagan religions such as Wiccan. 3. In Christianity, all sins are of equal value (aside from the "unforgivable sin"). This means that homosexuality holds the same weight as arguing(Pv 17:14; 18:6; Titus 3:9; 2 Tim 2:23), offending people(Mt 13:41; 17:27; Ja 3:2), and not being perfect(Mt 5:48; Gen 17:1; 1 Ki 8:61; 2 Cor 13:11). Like you said, a lot of hypocrisy and double standard going on with that argument. No one would bite, though. People are too attached to the word, whether for tradition's sake or or religion's. But where in the bible does it say being gay is a sin? I don't think it does but even if I'm wrong one person's religious views should never effect anyone else, and most of the "christians" that hate gay people are self-righteous assholes... :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esme Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) But where in the bible does it say being gay is a sin? I don't think it does but even if I'm wrong one person's religious views should never effect anyone else, and most of the "christians" that hate gay people are self-righteous assholes... :/ Most people tend to use Leviticus 18:22 and the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, but they're both stupid arguments because: A). Leviticus is pretty much refuted by Acts 14:24 - 29, Colossians 2:14, and Hebrews 7:18. Also, more often than not, that book is cherry-picked, making it awfully hypocritical to use it as an argument. B). Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because the people were utterly morally corrupt. Inhospitality, prostitution, rape, gluttony, arrogance, and apathy were totally rampant in that city. Other than that... nope. It's never really mentioned. Edited May 14, 2012 by Esme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 A quick google search will tell you were it says it, and it's more than just those two. Anyway, I'm hardly for it, just telling people the reasoning behind some people's view on it, since it's important to understand both sides. Also, I'm well aware the US isn't a theocracy, as I said, and I'm well aware of what the Bill of Rights says about religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) I don't really support what I'm posting next (mainly because I'm atheist), but there are actual verses in the bible that supposedly "bar" gay marriage (or call it a sin). "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." -Genesis 2:24 "Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." -Romans 1:26-27 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God" - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. "Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband." -1 Corinthians 7:2-3 Most religions throw out what is called "Levitical Code" mainly because it helps support their already-hypocritical organization (well, to an extent). Most barely even follow one of the Commandments - "Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy". I only know this because a) I was a Christian at one point, and b) my religion did follow some, if not all, of the so-called "Levitical Code" (such as refrain of eating unclean meat). Even though fornicators and adultery is kind of the same thing... ...and most Christians nowadays barely even follow the "sex after marriage" concept. Edited May 14, 2012 by Colonel M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanarkin Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) Did he say why, or is it for no reason? No particular reason that i remember him giving. He just finds it wrong to see a man kissing another man (he also mentioned women, but he said its a little bit more acceptable for them to do so), he also said that children should be protected from seeing that as well (in other words homosexuals should not have public displays of affection in public). The particular reason for this i'm not entirely sure however its possible that it stems from one of his thoughts that people become homosexuals not just born that way (that thought is just assumed from my part, since i remember watching a show that stated homosexuals are born homosexual and his reaction was one of surprise for lack of a better word). Edited May 14, 2012 by SlayerX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikethfc Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 he also said that children should be protected from seeing that as well He might write it off as a strawmn but you could mention the amputee from Cbeebies and how what he's saying isn't that different from the parents that did write to complain. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7906507.stm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sholes Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) I don't really support what I'm posting next (mainly because I'm atheist), but there are actual verses in the bible that supposedly "bar" gay marriage (or call it a sin). "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." -Genesis 2:24 "Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." -Romans 1:26-27 "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God" - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. "Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband." -1 Corinthians 7:2-3 Most religions throw out what is called "Levitical Code" mainly because it helps support their already-hypocritical organization (well, to an extent). Most barely even follow one of the Commandments - "Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy". I only know this because a) I was a Christian at one point, and b) my religion did follow some, if not all, of the so-called "Levitical Code" (such as refrain of eating unclean meat). Even though fornicators and adultery is kind of the same thing... ...and most Christians nowadays barely even follow the "sex after marriage" concept. But who supposedly said this, if it was Jesus or God then it holds some credibility. But if it was just a random priest/rabbi then it really doesn't mean much. :/ No particular reason that i remember him giving. He just finds it wrong to see a man kissing another man (he also mentioned women, but he said its a little bit more acceptable for them to do so), he also said that children should be protected from seeing that as well (in other words homosexuals should not have public displays of affection in public). The particular reason for this i'm not entirely sure however its possible that it stems from one of his thoughts that people become homosexuals not just born that way (that thought is just assumed from my part, since i remember watching a show that stated homosexuals are born homosexual and his reaction was one of surprise for lack of a better word). If he has a reason he can back up then even though I don't agree I can still respect his views, but if he doesn't then that's just being stupid. :/ If I was kissing a girl in public no one would care so why should it be any different when it's two men or women? Also, I don't think you can turn someone gay. Honestly when someone says to me that gay people choose to be gay all I can say is that I never chose to be straight, it just kinda happened, so I don;t think it's different. I do have a lot of gay/lesbian friends so I'm not prejudice, obviously, but when people are it doesn't really get to me, it's only when they start forcing their views on others that I start getting pissed about it. He might write it off as a strawmn but you could mention the amputee from Cbeebies and how what he's saying isn't that different from the parents that did write to complain. http://news.bbc.co.u...ine/7906507.stm I didn't read all of it but the first few paragraphs made me not want to live on this planet anymore... Edited May 14, 2012 by Dr.Sholes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 I don't believe that people get to "choose" their sexuality. Looking at the discrimination and sometimes lack of rights that the LGBT community still faces, who would "choose" to be gay? (Unless they were just looking for attention or something like that.) I'm sure straight people didn't choose to be straight. I didn't choose to be asexual. So I'm personally bothered when people call it a "choice". Also, banning gay marriage is ridiculous. It's not hurting anyone, and it's definitely not hurting the people who protest against it. I mean, why would it? Why does it affect you if two men or two women decide to get married? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 But who supposedly said this, if it was Jesus or God then it holds some credibility. But if it was just a random priest/rabbi then it really doesn't mean much. :/ I totally agree on that, but the problem with how Christianity, and I believe, Judaism and Islam, view the Bible, Torah, Qur'an, is that everything in it is divinely inspired. So no matter who said it, it's "the word of God." If he has a reason he can back up then even though I don't agree I can still respect his views, but if he doesn't then that's just being stupid. :/ If I was kissing a girl in public no one would care so why should it be any different when it's two men or women? Also, I don't think you can turn someone gay. Honestly when someone says to me that gay people choose to be gay all I can say is that I never chose to be straight, it just kinda happened, so I don;t think it's different. I do have a lot of gay/lesbian friends so I'm not prejudice, obviously, but when people are it doesn't really get to me, it's only when they start forcing their views on others that I start getting pissed about it. To be fair, some people don't like any PDA, so he could just be one of those people. Though if he has no problem with straight PDA, he's just a hypocrite. I don't believe that people get to "choose" their sexuality. Looking at the discrimination and sometimes lack of rights that the LGBT community still faces, who would "choose" to be gay? (Unless they were just looking for attention or something like that.) I'm sure straight people didn't choose to be straight. I didn't choose to be asexual. So I'm personally bothered when people call it a "choice". I've heard a bit of both. From what I remember from my psych classes, the vast majority of homosexual people don't choose it. But some, and it's more common in women, actually do choose to be gay for some reason, like something putting them off men. In this case, they've no particular draw towards one over the other so it could be said that they're bisexual or pansexual in the first place. Also, banning gay marriage is ridiculous. It's not hurting anyone, and it's definitely not hurting the people who protest against it. I mean, why would it? Why does it affect you if two men or two women decide to get married? Again, to religious people, allowing it is encouraging something that is spiritually harmful. In the case of religion, being gay isn't wrong, but acting on those impulses is. Like how we're not supposed to have sex before marriage. We have the desire to do so, but as long as we keep the desire in check, there's nothing wrong. It's when we act on said desires that it becomes wrong. But the US isn't a theocracy, so religion shouldn't play a part. As for the rest of the reasons, not sure what they are, but they're there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 (edited) But who supposedly said this, if it was Jesus or God then it holds some credibility. But if it was just a random priest/rabbi then it really doesn't mean much. :/ I dunno about that. I mean heck, everything we have that jesus said is written down by someone else. I think that the Christian religion puts some faith in those aside from the deities, especially Paul and the disciples. And in the old testament, the prophets have the word of god behind them. And within Judaism, the Talmud is, at least for more conservative Jews, considered a pretty important and authoritative source for understanding stuff despite having no direct divine approval or involvement. I certainly agree that direct statements from the divine hold more weight, but that doesn't mean that everything else "doesn't mean much." Edited May 14, 2012 by Hawkeye Hank Hatfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanarkin Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 If he has a reason he can back up then even though I don't agree I can still respect his views, but if he doesn't then that's just being stupid. :/ If I was kissing a girl in public no one would care so why should it be any different when it's two men or women? Also, I don't think you can turn someone gay. Honestly when someone says to me that gay people choose to be gay all I can say is that I never chose to be straight, it just kinda happened, so I don;t think it's different. I do have a lot of gay/lesbian friends so I'm not prejudice, obviously, but when people are it doesn't really get to me, it's only when they start forcing their views on others that I start getting pissed about it. He didn't give any particular reason for such a view. Juts that its not the way things should be/work. Of course i don't remember 100% of the conversation :<... Though if he has no problem with straight PDA, he's just a hypocrite. He has no problem with PDA from straight people. Like i said in a previous post, he doesn't think gay people should have equal rights as straight people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 How does he feel about gay incest? I mean, it's not like genetically malformed progeny can result, so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 He didn't give any particular reason for such a view. Juts that its not the way things should be/work. Of course i don't remember 100% of the conversation :<... He has no problem with PDA from straight people. Like i said in a previous post, he doesn't think gay people should have equal rights as straight people. I don't think you should be arguing what he says if you don't remember it. You should just say what you think some counter-arguments are--because if you can't accurately say some of these are his or in what contexts he's believing, you're misconstruing both his argument and him as a person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sholes Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I totally agree on that, but the problem with how Christianity, and I believe, Judaism and Islam, view the Bible, Torah, Qur'an, is that everything in it is divinely inspired. So no matter who said it, it's "the word of God." I dunno about that. I mean heck, everything we have that jesus said is written down by someone else. I think that the Christian religion puts some faith in those aside from the deities, especially Paul and the disciples. And in the old testament, the prophets have the word of god behind them. And within Judaism, the Talmud is, at least for more conservative Jews, considered a pretty important and authoritative source for understanding stuff despite having no direct divine approval or involvement. I certainly agree that direct statements from the divine hold more weight, but that doesn't mean that everything else "doesn't mean much." I'm not Roman Catholic so I don't believe that everything in the Bible is truth or even necessarily inspired by God. The way my religion does it is we take what God/Jesus supposedly said ad that's probably truth, if someone else said something it might be truth and how true it is depends on who the person is and the situation. A lot is left for the person to decide whether or not they believe it but I don't believe God/Jesus ever said gay people are bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I'm not Roman Catholic so I don't believe that everything in the Bible is truth or even necessarily inspired by God. The way my religion does it is we take what God/Jesus supposedly said ad that's probably truth, if someone else said something it might be truth and how true it is depends on who the person is and the situation. A lot is left for the person to decide whether or not they believe it but I don't believe God/Jesus ever said gay people are bad. That's fine, in fact it's more than fine, but your initial question was whether the the bible - which was taken to mean the old and new testament - had anything against homosexuality in it. For some, it seems, what is there is enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 (edited) That's fine, in fact it's more than fine, but your initial question was whether the the bible - which was taken to mean the old and new testament - had anything against homosexuality in it. For some, it seems, what is there is enough. This. Also, out of curiosity, what are you, Dr. Sholes? Most of the ones I'm familiar with have similar views on their religious texts. Though your way makes hella lot more sense. Edited May 15, 2012 by bottlegnomes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 (edited) Not to turn entirely onto a sexuality track, but IIRC I've heard that a significant number of people who identified as straight late in their lives, at least men, at one point in their life identified as exclusively gay. I definitely wouldn't doubt somebody if they said what their sexuality has been since they were born and/or what they currently identify as, but I would only want to mentally label somebody a certain way as long as they chose that label. I forget if I mentioned this too at some point, but I read in a letter to a magazine about one woman's account of marrying her male high school sweetheart, only to figure out by the time she turned early-mid twenty-something that she identified as gay. (Not sure what the whole story was, but she elected to stay with her husband, at least because she couldn't imagine a better companion, and possibly because she might've still been attracted to him specifically) But basically dealing with absolutes in sexuality ignores a lot of actual human experience, and it's of course hard to make an argument for banning either marriage or civil unions based on fact. Edited May 15, 2012 by Rehab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original Alear Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 This. Also, out of curiosity, what are you, Dr. Sholes? Most of the ones I'm familiar with have similar views on their religious texts. Though your way makes hella lot more sense. Lemme just takea guess before he posts and say Episcopalian, or some other anglican denomination. But I am actually interested to find out, if you're willing to share Sholes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1st Mate Bob Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 (edited) Real quick to the question about where in the bible it says homosexuality is a sin... Lev 18:22; Ro 1:24-28; 1 Cor 6:9 Leviticus is basically calling it a sin. Romans 1 is calling homosexual intercourse "unnatural". Corinthians states that homosexuals (among other sinful people such as thieves) will not inherit the Kingdom of God. There are a few other passages that gloss over the issue, but these are the most prominent. (other new testament passages include I Timothy 1:10 and Jude 7) Edited May 15, 2012 by 1st Mate Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Real quick to the question about where in the bible it says homosexuality is a sin... Lev 18:22; Ro 1:24-28; 1 Cor 6:9 Leviticus is basically calling it a sin. Romans 1 is calling homosexual intercourse "unnatural". Corinthians states that homosexuals (among other sinful people such as thieves) will not inherit the Kingdom of God. There are a few other passages that gloss over the issue, but these are the most prominent. (other new testament passages include I Timothy 1:10 and Jude 7) But why should one accept not only a book which is censored and biased in its translation, but also inconsistent in its claims (benevolence, yet a desire to harm and ostracize is one example out of book-fulls). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Homosexuality being a choice was brought up a few posts back, and though I don't agree with it in the slightest, even if it WAS a choice, the first amendment guarantees freedom of choice does it not? Then again, I'm supposing most NC citizens don't read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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