[FE13] Who's up for a draft?

[Westbrick]

USERS CURRENTLY SIGNED UP:

1) Westbrick

2) Passive Knight

3)

4)

HURRY! SLOTS ARE IN HIGH DEMAND

Didn't see a topic about this yet. From what I understand about how draft runs usually work, the total roster is divided among a small number of posters (~4-5), and the game is then played out to minimize turn count. Within those parameters, I feel that those of us who have the game sort of owe it to the rest to test out some new strategies and see which ones work the best. Plus, it could be a lot of fun! There are some kinks to work out, naturally, but here's a working list of guidelines:

*FINALIZED RULES* {thanks for all the patience and support from other users in making these}

-Difficulty is Hard Mode

-All members permitted to use Frederick, Olivia, Krom, MU, Azure, Lucina, and Mark

-MU can be either gender and has no restrictions on strong/weak stat

-A player can forgo recruiting a drafted unit if deemed strategically appropriate

-Undrafted units cannot "engage" (i.e. do damage) in combat, use staffs/items, or serve as Double/Dual partners; they can, however, be used as meatshields only if a) they're forced deployed, and b) only for the chapter they're recruited in

-Shiny tiles are allowed, but any weapons collected from shiny tiles cannot be wielded

-All Gaiden/children chapters have a five-turn "free buffer"; Selena's recruitment chapter has a buffer of 8

-No casual mode

-No Spotpass / DLC / random battles

-No Everyone's Room

-No use of traveling merchants

-No purchasing Nosferatu**

**- I've completed Awakening four times now (once on NM, twice on HM, and once on L), and a clear pattern has emerged: dark magic absolutely breaks the game. Not only would including dark magic mean that those who draft units like Sariya would be at a huge starting advantage, it would also trivialize run strategies into "send Nosferatank(s) deep into enemy territory." I'm open to changing my mind on this, but I'm fairly confident that things will be both more competitive and more enjoyable if all dark tomes are banned outright. Units like Sariya and Henry are fine; they just can't wield dark magic. [EDIT: All tomes except Nosferatu permitted, as they're not too broken.]

Let me know if I've missed anything important in the rules here, as well as if you'd be interested in signing up.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Westbrick

[Mikado]

Yea I guess I can join this draft if this on hard, not Lunatic. Though I'm currently doing a HM playthrough but I'll try to start ASAP

Given their random nature, should travelling merchants be open to the player?

It's the same as the world shop, so I see why not to make it free for all.

What about shiny tiles that can provide items/experience/weapon and support levels

Well.. yeah. Because players can move units freely to get the lowest turns possible rather than avoiding tiles.

How should we handle Gaiden and children maps / characters? Should we simply forego drafting children/Gaiden units in the first place, as recruiting them inevitably means wasting precious turns? Or should we allow each player to pick units they feel may save turns over the long-haul?

I say Gaidens should be free up to 20 turns

Edited May 24, 2012 by Passive Knight

[cheetah7071]

I'd say that children are drafted along with their mother (with the exception of Lucina and Mark). Gaidens either don't count towards the turncount or are all required (allowing undrafted units to enter skirmishes to get the requisite love points). If you go the latter route, drafted characters cannot gain exp except incidentally via dual attacks if you're attempting to pair them with an undrafted unit.

On a sidenote, can undrafted units be doubled with drafted units?

[Westbrick]

Yea I guess I can join this draft if this on hard, not Lunatic. Though I'm currently doing a HM playthrough but I'll try to start ASAP

I'm leaning HM myself. And no rush, since I'm sure it'll take awhile to get the needed support and finish up drafting units.

It's the same as the world shop, so I see why not to make it free for all.

The problem is that, from my understanding, it's randomized. Some merchants sell some items, others don't; sometimes the prices are better, sometimes worse. This is significant because some players may find merchants with Change Seals early on, giving them a distinct advantage. I'd prefer to streamline out as many unpredictable variables as possible.

Well.. yeah. Because players can move units freely to get the lowest turns possible rather than avoiding tiles.

Most tiles aren't exactly out of the way (although some are), and the quality of items/experience available vary widely. I actually stumbled upon a Leaf's Sword during my Lunatic Run in Ch.1, and you have no idea how much hassle that saved me.

I say Gaidens should be free up to 20 turns

Seems workable, although the precise number might need some adjusting. Some children/Gaiden chapters are naturally going to take longer than others, but that's part of the price of drafting a certain unit. If we're going down this road, then should Mark/Lucina be free as well?

---

I'd say that children are drafted along with their mother (with the exception of Lucina and Mark). Gaidens either don't count towards the turncount or are all required (allowing undrafted units to enter skirmishes to get the requisite love points). If you go the latter route, drafted characters cannot gain exp except incidentally via dual attacks if you're attempting to pair them with an undrafted unit.

The first option seems ripe for experience abuse, which is a no-no. The second option may work for normal Gaiden chapters, but would be a nightmare and a half for children chapters (as it would demand the player build up tons of supports). It doesn't matter to me either way; I'd be happy to take a poll on it from those participating. Do you have a copy of the game and want to join?

On a sidenote, can undrafted units be doubled with drafted units?

No. Part of the value of certain units, like Callum, lies specifically in their double benefits; allowing all units to be used for doubling marginalizes these draft advantages.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Westbrick

[RNG Princess]

is Dark magic really that good in this game? ^^' I'm impressed. Finally dark mages get a real boost.

[cheetah7071]

The first option seems ripe for experience abuse, which is a no-no. The second option may work for normal Gaiden chapters, but would be a nightmare and a half for children chapters (as it would demand the player build up tons of supports). It doesn't matter to me either way; I'd be happy to take a poll on it from those participating. Do you have a copy of the game and want to join?

I have the game but I don't know if I'd want to join. Certainly not until I finish my lunatic mode run.

Also, I'm surprised you ban dark magic, which is on units with infantry movement anyways, but allow lightning speed, which is on units who already have the best movement in the game.

Perhaps the compromise is that drafting a mother auto-drafts her child (barring Mark and Lucina) and that gaiden is free, but the other gaidens are banned. As long as it's upfront, people can realize that drafting mothers gives you extra exp and plan accordingly. Mark's gaiden would be mandatory (no matter what your draft team you can pick a female MU and pair her with krom or frederick) and Mark would not be a free character but would be drafted as normal.

[Mikado]

Most tiles aren't exactly out of the way (although some are), and the quality of items/experience available vary widely. I actually stumbled upon a Leaf's Sword during my Lunatic Run in Ch.1, and you have no idea how much hassle that saved me.

Ahh, I see. Well, in my first playthrough I got like, 10 Alm's Swords. xD

[Westbrick]

Also, I'm surprised you ban dark magic, which is on units with infantry movement anyways, but allow lightning speed, which is on units who already have the best movement in the game.

Movement isn't nearly as important in Awakening as it's been in previous FE games, due to the large number of rout chapters and the stronger enemies/vulnerability of fliers especially on Lunatic(+) (although I confess that part of drafting is figuring up which strategies hold better; I may be underestimating movement's importance). Naturally, for a low turn count run like this one, movement is going to be a significant factor, but won't be the game-breaking, strategy-centralizing one of Nosferatu.

Perhaps the compromise is that drafting a mother auto-drafts her child (barring Mark and Lucina) and that gaiden is free, but the other gaidens are banned. As long as it's upfront, people can realize that drafting mothers gives you extra exp and plan accordingly. Mark's gaiden would be mandatory (no matter what your draft team you can pick a female MU and pair her with krom or frederick) and Mark would not be a free character but would be drafted as normal.

I was thinking about offering up a more complex system like this one, but it seems rather convoluted and unworkable. For one thing, it would encourage people to hoard mother units, as it means free experience; for another, since each Gaiden chapter takes a unique amount of time to complete and offers a unique number of enemy units, certain mothers may be selected simply by the nature of their corresponding children chapters. This doesn't add much substantive strategy; it's just about manipulating a bunch of arbitrary rules.

I'd prefer we do things this way: Lucina's free, Mark's free (though his chapter isn't required), and each player gets a certain number of turns to conduct Gaiden/children business if deemed appropriate. It has a nice symmetry to it as well, as each player gets two free First Gen units, two free Second Gen units, and a free Jeigan unit.

[BBM]

IIRC, there was a thread a couple of weeks ago talking about draft rules for the game, and Othin, I believe it was, said that drafting children with mothers would give whoever gets Serge a huge advantage, as you'd get both Serge and Jerome for Griffin Knights. And Jerome could have Rainbow Cry too, if MU's his father.

[Othin]

LM is just too crazy. Stick with HM.

I think banning dark magic is going too far. The real problems are just Nosferatu and Inverse's Darkness, and even then because of their availability. I'm sure it would be enough to just ban those two spells, and might even be enough to just ban buying Nosferatu.

Everyone's Room must be banned unless there is a time limit. I'm sure I don't need to explain this. Banning the tiles isn't feasible, though.

You can't go infinite with the merchants like you can with Everyone's Room, but still, without a time limit, you could just wait forever to get a merchant with the items you want. Freely allowing them in a competitive setting would only prolong the draft and encourage abuse.

Sidequests shouldn't need more than a 10 turn allowance.

Lucina and Mark should be free. Again, I'm sure I don't need to explain this.

I don't like the idea of allowing undrafted units to meatshield. Hell, I don't like the idea of allowing undrafted units to be optionally deployed at all without penalty. Especially in this game, where you don't need them to recruit characters.

[PKL]

I agree that lucina and mark should be free. What about olivia though? I suspect she would give whoever has her drafted a very big advantage. And lightning speed should be banned...i dont need to explain myself on that. And, last, we would have to find a solution on grinding. What is too much grinding? What is too little grinding to stay on par with the enemies in HM?

[cheetah7071]

I agree that lucina and mark should be free. What about olivia though? I suspect she would give whoever has her drafted a very big advantage. And lightning speed should be banned...i dont need to explain myself on that. And, last, we would have to find a solution on grinding. What is too much grinding? What is too little grinding to stay on par with the enemies in HM?

If it's possible to do lunatic mode with no skirmishes (I did play Marth's DLC once to get MU up to level 10), then it should be trivial to do hard mode without them.

[Westbrick]

I think banning dark magic is going too far. The real problems are just Nosferatu and Inverse's Darkness, and even then because of their availability. I'm sure it would be enough to just ban those two spells, and might even be enough to just ban buying Nosferatu.

Not sure why this didn't come to me before. We can ban Nosferatu and that should be enough (although I'll have to insist on banning all tomes, not just purchased one).

Everyone's Room must be banned unless there is a time limit. I'm sure I don't need to explain this. Banning the tiles isn't feasible, though.

You can't go infinite with the merchants like you can with Everyone's Room, but still, without a time limit, you could just wait forever to get a merchant with the items you want. Freely allowing them in a competitive setting would only prolong the draft and encourage abuse.

Agreed with both.

Sidequests shouldn't need more than a 10 turn allowance.

Are you sure ten turns will be enough? Mark's chapter alone will take 3-5 best case, which leaves room for maybe one other kid. 20 seems more reasonable.

I don't like the idea of allowing undrafted units to meatshield. Hell, I don't like the idea of allowing undrafted units to be optionally deployed at all without penalty. Especially in this game, where you don't need them to recruit characters.

Then what should we do in situations like these: you've got an undrafted, unequipped unit who happens to get attacked by an enemy. Should we penalize the player?

[Psych]

Are you sure ten turns will be enough? Mark's chapter alone will take 3-5 best case, which leaves room for maybe one other kid. 20 seems more reasonable.

I'm pretty sure he means per each Sidequest. That's what the other games do.

[Othin]

Are you sure ten turns will be enough? Mark's chapter alone will take 3-5 best case, which leaves room for maybe one other kid. 20 seems more reasonable.

Oh, did you mean cumulative? I meant 10 turns for each, and Selena's is the only one that should come close to that. 5 might be enough for the rest.

Then what should we do in situations like these: you've got an undrafted, unequipped unit who happens to get attacked by an enemy. Should we penalize the player?

Well, the player shouldn't be deploying undrafted units in the first place, so I'd say yeah.

The only time when it really makes sense for that situation to happen is when the undrafted unit is forcibly deployed, and it seems to me that all forcibly deployed units should be free to do whatever they want, making that a moot point. To expand, I feel like drafts should look only at deployment for observing use of undrafted characters, and not at all at the units' performance within those chapters, even when forcibly deployed.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Othin

[CrashGordon94]

How's this for kids: Drafting mothers gets you the kid but they take up two slots like if you had drafted them separately? Perhaps condensing worse mother/child pairs into a single slot to make them more desirable.

[cheetah7071]

How's this for kids: Drafting mothers gets you the kid but they take up two slots like if you had drafted them separately? Perhaps condensing worse mother/child pairs into a single slot to make them more desirable.

So what, picking Sumia makes you skip your next pick?

[Westbrick]

Oh, did you mean cumulative? I meant 10 turns for each, and Selena's is the only one that should come close to that. 5 might be enough for the rest.

This goes back to the problem I touched on earlier: mother hoarding, and promoting the drafting of children/mothers/Gaiden units.

Oh, and children should be drafted with their mothers to avoid gimping by other drafters.

Well, the player shouldn't be deploying undrafted units in the first place, so I'd say yeah.

Imagine Ch.7, with Tiamo's recruitment. What if some of the dracoknight reinforcements happen to attack her? Why penalize the player? I see your point about meatshields, so how about this: undrafted units can be meatshielded only in the chapter they're recruited, and only if they're force-recruited.

nd it seems to me that all forcibly deployed units should be free to do whatever they want, making that a moot point. To expand, I feel like drafts should look only at deployment for observing use of undrafted characters, and not at all at the units' performance within those chapters, even when forcibly deployed.

Tell me about this in more detail: so undrafted, force-deployed units should be able to attack etc.?

[CrashGordon94]

So what, picking Sumia makes you skip your next pick?

Either that or you just keep going normally but stop prematurely because you burned through your slots quicker. Whichever works better.

[Othin]

This goes back to the problem I touched on earlier: mother hoarding, and promoting the drafting of children/mothers/Gaiden units.

Oh, and children should be drafted with their mothers to avoid gimping by other drafters.

Are you sure those are actually problems?

Imagine Ch.7, with Tiamo's recruitment. What if some of the dracoknight reinforcements happen to attack her? Why penalize the player? I see your point about meatshields, so how about this: undrafted units can be meatshielded only in the chapter they're recruited, and only if they're force-recruited.

Tell me about this in more detail: so undrafted, force-deployed units should be able to attack etc.?

Yeah, I'd say Tiamo should just be free for Ch7. Same with Libera and Saria in Ch9, Olivia in Ch11, Serge in Ch12, Henry in Ch13... okay, yeah, it's a lot, but I think it's fair.

[CrashGordon94]

Olivia should be free period, she's a Dancer.

[Westbrick]

Are you sure those are actually problems?

Yes.

Yeah, I'd say Tiamo should just be free for Ch7. Same with Libera and Saria in Ch9, Olivia in Ch11, Serge in Ch12, Henry in Ch13... okay, yeah, it's a lot, but I think it's fair.

It's not like it matters if undrafted units die, right? Have them unequip themselves if they can't reach Krom, and let them serve as meatshields at most.

Also, we can make Olivia free too.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Westbrick

[Othin]

Yes.

I'm not convinced they are. Could you elaborate?

It's not like it matters if undrafted units die, right? Have them unequip themselves if they can't reach Krom, and let them serve as meatshields at most.

Also, we can make Olivia free too.

I don't see any reason for us to jump to this as opposed to my proposal, which would eliminate the bizarrity of undrafted units freely acting as bait and meatshields in any run.

And can we please forget I said Olivia and focus on the other 10 or so units it applies to?

[PKL]

How many players would the draft ideally have? There are 31 units not counting the children. If krom, fred, my unit, lucina, olivia and mark are free for all there are 25 units left + 13 children ( that would probably be best drafted with their mothers like FE4). We could make another unit free so there are 24 units left (nono?basilio?flavia?) and make it 4 players, 6 units each. As for gaidens, undrafted units wouldnt be able to pair. Gaidens are free up to 10 turns, 20 if needed. If a player drafts units with the purpose of getting more gaidens and more exp, more power to them. Skirmishes would be banned like FE8. And thats all i can think of.

[Othin]

Well, the Final allows 16 units. We should set up the draft in a way that will allow each player to have around that amount, including children.