Balancing FE8

[Progenitus]

balancing jeigans in general is a bitch, because then the difficulty of the chapters becomes a huge point in whether or not they're overpowered. If jeigans are too good you end up with guys like seth and FE7 marcus (who can solo the game), whereas if they're bad you get FE6 marcus (who are useless after a certain point in the game). It's much easier to simply make seth another tier 1 unit.

trainees (and ests in general) CAN be useful, but they need to be worth it. The trainees as they are now are barely any better than the rest of the units in the game at equal levels, but since they are so underleveled they will never be that way (except Ross who joins early enough to close the level gaps eventually, but his stats just blow).

Enemies also must be balanced with the PCs. If enemies are too weak then stats will not matter and mobility/availability/etc. become the major factors (like most FE games). If enemies are too slow then speed doesn't matter. If enemies have all the same speed values then there are huge jumps in offense at very small differences in speed (see FE10 where the vast majority of enemies fell within ~2 point speed bracket, which meant units crossing this bridge were much, much better at offense than the units that didn't).

Also depending on how you want to achieve balance, the stats themselves need to be tweaked. HP/skl/lck/res are hilariously underpowered compared to str/spd/def (especially spd). If you are trying to balance the characters without changing the stat system, many characters will have similar stat builds, and that makes for a fairly boring game. However this is up to you as doing this tweaking will be very difficult.

[BrightBow]

The PCs seem fine to me for the most part. The problematic part are the enemies. It's just embarrassing that this is a game with random encounters for grinding, yet the only difference in difficulty it can cause is that the game goes from "easy" to "why am I even bother playing".

How about giving enemies some decent skill and a few more Horseslayers? Particularly to enemies near the boss.

Edited May 29, 2012 by BrightBow

[CrashGordon94]

Probably fewer but stronger enemies. I say "fewer" as well because

1) It lets you give better stat increases to them without them becoming overwhelming.

2) The few times FE8 enemies ARE threatening, it's when they swarm and then it becomes a rather bad game of luck about "How many of these mooks can you dodge? :D", which isn't really a good way to do it.

[Titamon]

Gilliam needs more base def and Speed

And don't give Franz lowen like growths :/ he's a little kid, he doesn't look like the burly tank type, just nerf his strength

[Ema Skye]

Here's a quick little changelist that I've complied. It has info on each of the characters (including Bases, Growths, Starting Equipment and weapon levels). Tower and Ruins characters aren't touched yet.

Click Me!

Nothing in there is set in stone, so feel free to suggest any kind of changes.

Couple of things I'm unsure of (and by extension, things I want talked about)

Kyle and Forde's class changes

Duesell's bases

Franz's growths

Seth's demotion (and bases/growths)

Gilliam's promotion (and bases/growths)

Growths as a whole (too high?, too low?)

Edited May 29, 2012 by Lucina

[Exiledwolf]

Here's a quick little changelist that I've complied. It has info on each of the characters (including Bases, Growths, Starting Equipment and weapon levels). Tower and Ruins characters aren't touched yet.

Click Me!

Nothing in there is set in stone, so feel free to suggest any kind of changes.

Couple of things I'm unsure of (and by extension, things I want talked about)

Kyle and Forde's class changes

Duesell's bases

Franz's growths

Seth's demotion (and bases/growths)

Gilliam's promotion (and bases/growths)

Growths as a whole (too high?, too low?) 

Woah, so Gilliam becomes your new jeigan while Seth becomes another cavalier to train? Also, how will he survive Valters Silver lance? Don't demote seth, but just lower his growths significantly. For Gil, perhaps just raise his base speed.

Imo, Franzs growth look great.

Hmm, due to the lack of armor knights, perhaps make kyle that class instead of wyvern rider

Edited May 29, 2012 by Exiledwolf

[whase]

wait, does this mean there are no armor knights/generals? (Gilliam being GK/Amelia being cav)

[Bryan]

Click Me!

Pirate!Ross & Shaman!Ewan Don't make sense.

Why is Ross a pirate? His dad, who teaches him, is a Fighter. If you're being taught by somebody, you don't have a very different style of fighting. It made sense when Ross could promote to Pirate, as he has spent time fighting in a war and now can look at a different style of fighting. Similarly, Saleh can't use dark magic, so how is he teaching it to Ewan? Again, it makes sense as Ewan was fighting and decided to try out a different kind of magic, but it doesn't make sense when he starts out.

I'd recommend changing them to the Trainee classes that are the tier two verison. Hero!Ross, Paladin!Amelia and Sage!Ewan are the most logical story promotions. Leaving them as the trainees makes sense, and then if you no longer want them to be in that class, you can promote them to the above classes.

Then just buff the bases and caps of the Trainees, so that Pupil(3) is worth going to over Sage. I'd personally give them all the crit bonus. I'd probably give them all a PRF weapon too. Make the hatchet only able to be used by Ross. (Use the Wao Do weapon lock, for all three units.)

The Trainee classes are unique, why get rid of them? They're one of my favorite things about FE8. Amelia is the only person able of being promoted and using lances on foot. Why just throw that away? It's cool.

-o-

I also wouldn't auto promote Gilliam. You just demoted Seth for being to overpowered, so then you want to replace him by another tier 2 unit? Oh, and as other's mentioned, it means no armor knights. Lammmmme.

I'd just nerf Seth's bases, and his weapon level (Or just take his silver lance.) Don't make him on par with Franz.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Bryan

[Ema Skye]

@ExciledWolf:If I remember correctly, the Valter fight is staged, so Valter won't actually kill Seth. If it turns out that I'm wrong, then Gilliam and Seth can have their normal roles back.

@Whase: Yeah, there aren't any. Armors and Generals aren't a great class to be in, so I don't think they'll be missed too much. Kyle or Forde could take the role of an Armor though, but I don't think it'll help them.

@Bryan: Not everything is required to make sense. Pirate!Ross seems like the preferred route for Ross, and Ewan was a total coinflip (I can make him a Mage though)

Not too sure what your talking about the trainees. Are you wanting their starting class to be Trainee (2), or Figher/Cavalier/Mage?

If Pupil (3) is better than Sage, then why go Sage? Why have two promotion options is one is clearly better than the other?

Normal Seth and New Gilliam are completely different (look at their bases).

Edited May 29, 2012 by Lucina

[Bryan]

@Bryan: Not everything is required to make sense. Pirate!Ross seems like the preferred route for Ross, and Ewan was a total coinflip (I can make him a Mage though)

Not too sure what your talking about the trainees. Are you wanting their starting class to be Trainee (2), or Figher/Cavalier/Mage?

If Pupil (3) is better than Sage, then why go Sage? Why have two promotion options is one is clearly better than the other?

Normal Seth and New Gilliam are completely different (look at their bases).

Sorry, I meant that I wanted them to be Trainee (2). That way, they can promote to Trainee (3) OR Hero/Paladin/Sage.

I just meant that there needs to be some reason to go into Pupil (3) rather than Sage. One major thing a balance patch for FE8 needs to do is make the classes worth going into rather than the other. For Example, Ranger vs. Hero is something to debate, as it's either 1move+bows vs axes. Which do you pick? It's at least debatable. However, Mage Knight vs. Valkyire is obvious as Anima kills light magic. (Oh, you should make magic lighter, in case you didn't already.)

A +15 crit boost vs. staves? Now that's something to think about, IMO.

[Espinosa]

Amelia could always be a speedy knight if you need one (at base that is). Just for the hell of it.

[Lord Raven]

Why are we complaining about gameplay changes wrt the story

If this is meant to be a purely gameplay based balance then who cares?

EDIT: Bryan, don't play an RR patch, because it doesnt make sense for Karel, son of Eliwood, and his ragtag band of knights (Dayan, Yuno, Douglas, Niime, and Yodel) to take on the empire

Edited May 30, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Hawk King]

Ok so somehow your "balance" turned into "buff everyone".

You might have actually made Seth even better than he was before.

Franz is definitely better.

Whatever, do what you want with it I guess...

[Lord Raven]

A good way to create balance (not in the traditional sense that everyone has something over someone else) is to make everyone incredibly usable, as opposed to "well this person is KINDA usable" and "you need to grind/baby them a bit to make them usable" because it's the easiest yet most guaranteed balance to make

I don't see how Seth was even better than before; the work Lucina did with Gilliam would be interesting to see in practice, though

[Hawk King]

@ Raven - I said almost for Seth.

Ok, I just looked at the starting equipment...

Seth has no sword so he will have trouble in Prologue and Chp 1 which is good because otherwise he would be OP.

Kyle has 56LUC? Haha, yeah thats way too high. (Obviously a typo) Also, having him fly completely changes 5x.

Knoll has warp? And a base 19MAG? And A rank staves? Hello best unit in the game. Well, close to it.

Ewan has Nosferatu?

L'Arachel has no heal/mend?

Gilliam is crap. After only 5 or so LVs Seth and Franz will outclass him. With those base stats his growths could be a little better.

Everyone's DEF growths are really high. Actually all of the growths that were changed are just blah. No one is unique. There are no over-kill growths in exchange for low growths. (IE: Garcia's STR and SPD)

I dunno. Alot of the changes are pretty drastic. And now its just flipped around. Its still unbalanced just for different reasons.

[Lord Raven]

Gilliam won't be surpassed so easily if he's your primary killer, that's kind of his point with his FE7-marcus like growths. We can't tell how imbalanced it is until we actually play the game

Lack of uniqueness actually is a form of balance, but there's only so much you can do when you have a couple units of the same niche/class in the end anyway -_-

Edited May 30, 2012 by Lord Raven

[MacLovin]

Keep Forde and Kyle as Cavs, but lower their Base lvls

also, either

Lower enemy mass, but make them stronger.

or

Raise enemy mass, but make them very weak.

Also, Armour KNights were crap anyways, I'm sure not missing them.

[whase]

Keep Forde and Kyle as Cavs, but lower their Base lvls

also, either

Lower enemy mass, but make them stronger.

or

Raise enemy mass, but make them very weak.

Also, Armour KNights were crap anyways, I'm sure not missing them.

I'd miss benching them

and I'd say lower enemy mass but stronger, it fits a strategy game better I think.

[Ema Skye]

I've been testing the new Gilliam and Seth, and they're working pretty well. Seth always survives Valter's attack, if anyone was concerned about it. Gilliam's base speed was upped to 10, but after Ch.1, he doesn't double anything that isn't weighed down. He'll 2HKO mostly everything (Bazba is like a 3HKO though, and Bazba hasn't been editted yet) with his Steel Sword. He's pretty crutch in the beginning.

I'm thinking Vanessa could use an Axereaver in the beginning, because as it stands now, she's pretty useless with the stronger enemies. The only thing I've used her for was for saving Ross. Thoughts?

@Hawk King: I do get where your coming from. However, it's important to know that no changes are final. If there's something that ends up being unbalanced, then it can be changed. That's why we playtest.

[Exiledwolf]

What is it that vanessa fails at later in the game? Why not up her con by 1 so she won't get that much weighed from by the later weapons and for that axreaver.

[Ema Skye]

Well she gets 2HKOed by everything in her joining map and does 4 damage tops to everything that is my main problem. It's tough for her to do any rescuing when she's dead in two attacks.

[Exiledwolf]

Why not give her a buff in base hp or defense, but not both? Would that help the damage problem?

[Starwave]

I honestly think Marisa should be changed into a lvl 5-8 Swordmaster. Upping her joining level and boosting her growths is a nice gesture but she still won't be used over Joshua who (if you properly level him up) should have the level lead on her. Making her into a pre-promote gives her an actual niche.

I also think Lute and Neimi need more tweaks. Higher bases?

Edited May 30, 2012 by Starwave

[Hawk King]

@ Starwave

Marissa now has a hero crest in her starting inventory so she basically is promoted.

@ Lucina

I know its a work-in-progress. Im just giving my input on it.

Axereaver is C rank (IIRC) so Nessie will need her rank raised.

Increasing her CON will prevent her from being able to rescue some people. Especially if she becomes a WK.

Try making a few enemies into Sword wielding classes instead of Axes? That would help with Nessie's inability to fight/kill stuff.

[Paperblade]

A good way to create balance (not in the traditional sense that everyone has something over someone else) is to make everyone incredibly usable, as opposed to "well this person is KINDA usable" and "you need to grind/baby them a bit to make them usable" because it's the easiest yet most guaranteed balance to make

I don't see how Seth was even better than before; the work Lucina did with Gilliam would be interesting to see in practice, though

The problem is that the way he did it is boring. Everyone is basically the same with 40-50% growths across the board, unless you're really bad at something in which case it goes as low as 20-30 or really good in which case it might go as high as 60!

What's the point of having both Seth and Franz when they are basically identical?