Brides. . . really?

[Richard Lionheart Gasquet]

Hey, wedding dresses can be practical too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdyVvEHUyQE&feature=endscreen

[Striped Shirt]

Yeah, it's just a coincidence that it's the women that get the frilly dresses and get to be Brides while the men get armor and get to be Demon Fighters.

Yes, it is coincidence, total coincidence. I honestly, 100%, do not think that the devs pondered the implications of the classes beyond what they brought to the game itself. They simply thought "Bride" made for an interesting and unique job. You can argue that that job is stupid, there are plenty of reasons to think that it's stupid, but to cry sexist is just being hyper-sensitive and ignoring the real issues. Any "sexism" in regards to the class is either unintentional or coincidental.

s/he has been sort of not getting what people have been saying on this board for almost it's entire short run.

What exactly am I missing? I like to think I've been pretty understanding on this subject, maybe a little too understanding as it's apparently made my personal opinion of the class a little hard to understand. Let me clear that up:

Being a bride implies nothing but being married. It implies marriage, which is optional, and does not reflect even the slightest of what a class can or may be able to do in any combat situation.

This is the only legitimate problem I see in the class. It's not sexist, it's silly. It's out of place and it doesn't represent anything a class should, and while titles like Lord or Princess never did either, they were at least restricted to specific characters whose unique characteristics filled in the blanks. Bride reads like an exclusive class, but without the exclusivity nailing down it's role. That said, while it is nonsensical, I don't find it outright offensive, and I can appreciate what it brings to the game.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Striped Shirt

[Thor Odinson]

Yes, it is coincidence, total coincidence. I honestly, 100%, do not think that the devs pondered the implications of the classes beyond what they brought to the game itself. They simply thought "Bride" made for an interesting and unique job. You can argue that that job is stupid, there are plenty of reasons to think that it's stupid, but to cry sexist is just being hyper-sensitive and ignoring the real issues. Any "sexism" in regards to the class is either unintentional or coincidental.

While I'm going to stay neutral on the sexism issue here (only because I really don't feel like arguing) you do have to realise that this is Japan and more often than not women are expected to get married and leave their occupations to become a housewife. Many countries in Asia tend to be more sexist than NA/Europe, so I wouldn't say it's 100% unintentional or coincidental. Could it be? Sure. But is there a possibility of them actually being sexist? Absolutely. 100% is assuming too much.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Fat Bunny

[Striped Shirt]

While I'm going to stay neutral on the sexism issue here (only because I really don't feel like arguing) you do have to realise that this is Japan and more often than not women are expected to get married and leave their occupations to become a housewife. Many countries in Asia tend to be more sexist than NA/Europe, so I wouldn't say it's 100% unintentional or coincidental. Could it be? Sure. But is there a possibility of them actually being sexist? Absolutely. 100% is assuming too much.

But that just makes it more unintentional, as that would make it sexist only by western standards.

[Thor Odinson]

I'd say their social expectations is sexist as a whole. Doesn't America often have the "get back to the kitchen" thing? While it's mostly as a joke, some people do actually believe that, and that's pretty much in the same vein.

Maybe they were just trying to appeal to the women who do like pretty dresses, and while it's a generalisation at least it's somewhat well meant. But on the other hand, can it have that "get back to the kitchen" implication? It's certainly possible. A woman's life goal is to get married and have kids and should be supportive rather than aggressive. Yadayada that type of deal. Do I mean that that IS what they're implying? No. But it's one of the possibilities.

But my point is you shouldn't be saying things with 100% certainty anything unless you have concrete proof.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Fat Bunny

[Striped Shirt]

I'd say their social expectations is sexist as a whole. Doesn't America often have the "get back to the kitchen" thing? While it's mostly as a joke, some people do actually believe that, and that's pretty much in the same vein.

I see where you're coming from, but isn't it a little presumptuous to condemn an entire culture as sexist because it doesn't match up to the sensibilities you were raised on? I'm sure there are legitimate misogynists out there, but there's no precedent of IS letting it seep into their games, so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

But my point is you shouldn't be saying things with 100% certainty anything unless you have concrete proof.

It was more an expression than a statement of fact. I'd have used 98% but I'd hate to look wishy-washy.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Striped Shirt

[Thor Odinson]

I'm raised in China. Which is a pretty fucking misogynist place so much that many females get aborted because males are more prized.

And did I say they absolutely did? I made a case of possibility where IS was totally well-meant but just didn't make the best execution of it. I'm saying that the sexism is a possibility given the cultural trends. Not absolute.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Fat Bunny

[Original Alear]

Thinking of it theoretically, you can't win wars without support type fighters, ie. combat medics, archers/ranged shooters, etc. Yes, in the broader perspective it is misogynistic to make the new female-restricted class a support class when the male class was a frontline unit, but there isn't anything wrong with having a support class.

Combat medics are I think relatively recent. It makes perfect sense to use people with magic healing staves if you have them, but all wars have been fought with less. In Tolstoy's War and Peace, Homer's Iliad, and the Master and Commander series, for instance, I'm not sure characters take a wound, get healed, and then get up to fight again. (Though if I remember right, in the first Master and Commander book someone takes a serious injury and continues to fight)

As for the lumi/shirt thing...what lumi was saying about women being expected to marry and leave their jobs is something I've heard before. It's definitely not universal, and I'm not sure that it's more often than not, but it does have that "ring of truth" to it. America used to be like that, too, more specifically during war times I believe women would often lose their jobs gained during the war once men came home. Not saying sexism in America was gone but workforce diversity as a whole increased (though skewed in some sectors). I also remember how a Japanese politician, sometime in the area of 2006-2008, referred to women/japanese women as "baby making machines" when talking about their issues with decreasing population. The article covering the thing said at the time that a lot of Japanese women felt that the culture towards women in japan made them leery about having children (though another explanation is rising cost of living).

Edited June 2, 2012 by Hawkeye Hank Hatfield

[Striped Shirt]

I'm raised in China. Which is a pretty fucking misogynist place so much that many females get aborted because males are more prized.

And did I say they absolutely did? I made a case of possibility where IS was totally well-meant but just didn't make the best execution of it. I'm saying that the sexism is a possibility given the cultural trends. Not absolute.

You're still eying another culture through tinted lens, just from the other side of the spectrum.

And you seem really anal about semantics, I didn't mean to touch a nerve. I'll go back and edit my post so as not to trigger you.

As for the lumi/shirt thing...what lumi was saying about women being expected to marry and leave their jobs is something I've heard before. It's definitely not universal, and I'm not sure that it's more often than not, but it does have that "ring of truth" to it.

My experience with Japanese society has been quite the opposite, actually. Way I hear it it's the women who're reinforcing traditional gender roles and looking for husbands to take care of them, while most (sorry bunny) a lot of the men seem to want them to pull their own weight, especially with the raising costs of living.

But then, most of my experience comes from bitter otaku on 2ch.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Striped Shirt

[Thor Odinson]

I'm more anal about numbers than semantics.

@ bottom comment: Some women do that either because they're lazy and don't want to work, are gold-diggers, are very traditional (some women are just as much to blame for sexism as those men who are sexist), or some possible other reasons, but I don't expect that to be the case for all women either. I'd personally be very offended if the guy I liked expected me to stay home and have kids after marriage (thank god I've never dated anyone like that, I'd break up with one in a heartbeat), when I have a career goal in mind and want to work for my own living, and that is the same for many women but not all. That person could be complaining about a minority case for all I cared.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Fat Bunny

[Original Alear]

I'd say their social expectations is sexist as a whole. Doesn't America often have the "get back to the kitchen" thing? While it's mostly as a joke, some people do actually believe that, and that's pretty much in the same vein.

The japanese are apparently very obsessed atm with a "western wedding," and more Japanese have weddings in western style dress than following a tradition japanese wedding. So while "get back in the kitchen" is rather rarely used seriously by a an American woman (I think/hope), a video game character in a fancy bridal dress might seem really awesome to a lot of Japanese women (even if the fighting practicality remains a valid issue) or men I guess.

My experience with Japanese society has been quite the opposite, actually. Way I hear it it's the women who're reinforcing traditional gender roles and looking for husbands to take care of them, while most (sorry bunny) a lot of the men seem to want them to pull their own weight, especially with the raising costs of living.

Ah, that's interesting!

Edited June 2, 2012 by Hawkeye Hank Hatfield

[Thor Odinson]

The japanese are apparently very obsessed atm with a "western wedding," and more Japanese have weddings in western style dress than following a tradition japanese wedding. So while "get back in the kitchen" is rather rarely used seriously by a an American woman (I think/hope), a video game character in a fancy bridal dress might seem really awesome to a lot of Japanese women (even if the fighting practicality remains a valid issue) or men I guess.

Interesting. That might make case 1 (aka IS being well-meant with a poor execution) more likely than I thought before, now. If it's that appealing it certainly could increase sales there, I'd say, and I don't think IS's primary focus is the western world though I'd certainly hope they still bring it over here in America.

I remember China being a similar case. While people often express xenophobic sentiments there, referring to westerners by derogatory slurs about 70% of the time, they sure really love American stuff and having American stuff was kind of a status symbol in places. I never really got why so, but I was young when I left China.

As for "get back in the kitchen" thing, I've been seeing it mostly on the comment sections of 9gag. While it's generally mostly used as a joke, and this kind of sentiment have decreased in America over the years it's not a completely gone sentiment and I have a feeling that some people who claim they're joking actually do feel that way.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Fat Bunny

[Saria]

The japanese are apparently very obsessed atm with a "western wedding," and more Japanese have weddings in western style dress than following a tradition japanese wedding. So while "get back in the kitchen" is rather rarely used seriously by a an American woman (I think/hope), a video game character in a fancy bridal dress might seem really awesome to a lot of Japanese women (even if the fighting practicality remains a valid issue) or men I guess.

It sadly depends on what part of the USA you're in. We're a country that prides itself on being 'free and equal' but there are a lot of area's that really make you cringe. Down in the southern states (especially Georgia) it's still very much expected for women to marry young, have children and 'stay in the kitchen' if you will. Our standards on women are pretty... sexist, not even going to lie on that part. A lot of women I know joke around about their 'place', and I know a whole family who think a woman should stay home and raise a family.

I'd say their social expectations is sexist as a whole. Doesn't America often have the "get back to the kitchen" thing? While it's mostly as a joke, some people do actually believe that, and that's pretty much in the same vein. <br style="color: rgb(7, 55, 2); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(239, 255, 240); ">Maybe they were just trying to appeal to the women who do like pretty dresses, and while it's a generalisation at least it's somewhat well meant. But on the other hand, can it have that "get back to the kitchen" implication? It's certainly possible. A woman's life goal is to get married and have kids and should be supportive rather than aggressive. Yadayada that type of deal. Do I mean that that IS what they're implying? No. But it's one of the possibilities.

Yeah I don't think it was anything intentional and you're right about the cultural difference. I would hope IS didn't mean anything bad by it's word choice at least.

America is pretty terrible with sexism. On the outside women are declared free and equal, but a lot of men and women (especially in southern states, as I stated above) only reinforce older thoughts. Having had a father who's tried to reinforce why a woman can't be equal and why they belong at home, it's really freaking ridiculous how much people still honestly believe that nonsense.

[Celice]

As for "get back in the kitchen" thing, I've been seeing it mostly on the comment sections of 9gag. While it's generally mostly used as a joke, and this kind of sentiment have decreased in America over the years it's not a completely gone sentiment and I have a feeling that some people who claim they're joking actually do feel that way.

Well then, there's your problem.

[Thor Odinson]

I think wrt America it depends on where you live. I live in a fairly open-minded area, so as a whole people aren't very sexist here (or I just don't hang out with them, haven't met one that's genuinely sexist to me yet), though you do have the occasional asshole lying around. Then in other areas it goes to shit.

Now that I think about it, though, I had a friend who's annoyed because I can beat him in a fight even though I've got training and he doesn't and he's not even a big guy (about 5 inches taller than me, doesn't even weigh much more if he weighs more at all). I've yelled at him a couple times for it and I think he learned.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Fat Bunny

[Original Alear]

I don't really like the "stay in the kitchen" joke generally, but

Q: A man runs over a woman. Whose fault is it?

Q2: Why is a man driving in the kitchen?

Always gets me.

[Saria]

I think wrt America it depends on where you live. I live in a fairly open-minded area, so as a whole people aren't very sexist here (or I just don't hang out with them, haven't met one that's genuinely sexist to me yet), though you do have the occasional asshole lying around. Then in other areas it goes to shit.

Now that I think about it, though, I had a friend who's annoyed because I can beat him in a fight even though I've got training and he doesn't and he's not even a big guy (about 5 inches taller than me, doesn't even weigh much more if he weighs more at all). I've yelled at him a couple times for it and I think he learned.

It really does. I live out on the west coast so I rarely ever meet any genuinely sexist people. But I've been to the south before so I've seen how bad it can get. Some northern states are just as bad too, and I have no idea about most of the east coast because I haven't actually been over there for long..

EDIT: Oh, some of the original states on the east coast are just as bad as some southern states.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Saria

[Thor Odinson]

I live in New York what with our legal gay marriage and all so I'd say we're likely one of the more open-minded states in the US (at least in my part of NY anyway, can't really say for upstate) But yeah, I wouldn't doubt that some of our neighbouring states can be drastically more bigoted.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Fat Bunny

[Saria]

Ah yeah, I'm in California, a state notorious for being free for all and then changing it's mind because 'THINK OF THE CHILDREN' aka parents don't ever want to talk to their children about life so let's just ban everything.

[Thor Odinson]

At least they repealed that, didn't they?

Oh man off topic now

well

I hold my sentiments that Ninty should totally sell that dress as a real thing. Whether or not the class has any unfortunate implications, the dress is really nicely designed.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Fat Bunny

[Saria]

I honestly can't remember if it was or not, I want to say it was, but was put back into affect or something... I'm pretty sure it's still a part of our law.

Anyways.

That dress is beautiful, there's no denying. Staying firm to my opinion that the art is nice, the dress is nice, the class name is unfortunate and kind of makes things weird, but the class versatility itself seems to be spot on (I'm a sucker for healing/physical weapon combo's, FE4 princesses are my second favorite units),

[Loki Laufeyson]

Ah yeah, I'm in California, a state notorious for being free for all and then changing it's mind because 'THINK OF THE CHILDREN' aka parents don't ever want to talk to their children about life so let's just ban everything.

Yeah we Californians get a bit wishy-washy on junk. Because its so huge, there is a huge area thats all "FREE ALL THE GAYS!" and this other area whos all "wtf! THE CHILDREN!" Despite being a blue state, we are a bit divided on issues and it drives me up a wall. (im in the former camp btw.) My area is...terribly sexist a lot of the time because its more rural. At age 25, a woman is actually expected to have two kids by different fathers... and have been married twice. Im thought of as the odd ball because im neither married or have children at my age. lol So i would know a few people who would look at this particular concept as "oh how pretty! Shes a princess getting married! Awwwww!" instead of "wut..how are you supposed to fight in that and wtf is this even implying?" Yeah its kinda like that.

At least they repealed that, didn't they?

Its...complicated. :P

Anyway, the one(s) who brought up this sort of class and design appealing to the Japanese market are on to something. I did hear that Japan is actually rather more sexist than out here across the pond. Certainly explains what we end up seeing in anime... So like, Japanese audiences are gonna see Eirika in this outfit and class and probably squee. Whereas a lot of people out west are gonna be all "nigga, wut?" Cuz that kind of concept is a bit...dated and misogynistic to us.

[RNG Princess]

I want that dress it's beautiful! Brides is the most bizarre class I have ever heard in fire emblem, but I think I like the idea ;W;. Brides to battle save your grooms!

I want to reclass Richt into a bride too bad I can't ;A;

Edited June 2, 2012 by Queen_Emelina

[Saria]

Yeah we Californians get a bit wishy-washy on junk. Because its so huge, there is a huge area thats all "FREE ALL THE GAYS!" and this other area whos all "wtf! THE CHILDREN!" Despite being a blue state, we are a bit divided on issues and it drives me up a wall. (im in the former camp btw.) My area is...terribly sexist a lot of the time because its more rural. At age 25, a woman is actually expected to have two kids by different fathers... and have been married twice. Im thought of as the odd ball because im neither married or have children at my age. lol So i would know a few people who would look at this particular concept as "oh how pretty! Shes a princess getting married! Awwwww!" instead of "wut..how are you supposed to fight in that and wtf is this even implying?" Yeah its kinda like that.

Haha yes, the area I grew up in in my later teen years/some early adult years was kind of like that... I think maybe only twenty girls from my graduating class weren't mothers already, but we really didn't have anything that educated... anyone on sex ed. I was definitely the odd type for not being married or having kids at my age either (I got out of there finally though).

Assuming this gets ported to North America, I'm pretty sure they'd end up changing the class name, since America 'tries' to be more politically correct. Tries.. Even though her outfit will stay the same, a fair amount of people would probably not change their opinion on the game itself for it (though some of the good people of tumblr really flipped their lid to the point of not wanting to buy the game at all over DLC??? Makes no sense).

Edited June 2, 2012 by Saria

[Loki Laufeyson]

Im expecting a name change of the class when it gets released internationally. Its not just Murika whos on the PC train! choo choo! So im thinking they might give the class the titles of either Princess, Maiden, or Noble or something of that nature. The Official Art and design will not change but yeah. Because in reality, the dress doesnt look THAT much like a wedding dress. It can appear to be like those big hooped dresses European ladies wore in the 1800s. And seeing how Eirika was indeed a princess, it would make sense.