Growth Rates?

[Blazing Samurai8905]

Howdy, I was just wondering (mainly from those who have made several hacks before) Did you create your own growth rates, or use ones already in place?

The reqason I ask is because I'm trying to envision how certain characters will develop, but I want them to develop "normally" (abnormally is what I've seen in several hacks, where every character maxes out all of their stats)

I'm trying to stick to a truer fire emblem feel, where some characters develops differently than others.

so what did you all do?

haha thanks in advance!

[Jubby]

try checking up on some of the tier lists and whatever in the actual FE discussion forums. I think the average is around 300% growth when you add up the growths in all the stats, but you might want to check there to make sure.

[dondon151]

i just go with 0 everywhere

[Smiley Jim]

Typically, when I do my hacking projects, I use a growths total of 310-330(320 being the medium)for non-promoted units and 260-280(270 being the medium)for pre promoted units. I honestly do not like it when people make hacks where the units cap absolutely everything since it just boils down to class caps. Using these limits, I then deal with how growths will be distributed(Generally speaking, I do it by class, mostly.)

[spoiler=How Growth Design Works]For example, I have a knight and I need to input growths for him. Since knights are typically high in the manly stats and low everywhere else, I would give this character high HP/str/def growths, average skill, and mediocre spd/lck/res. The end result would be something like this:

90HP/55str/40skl/30spd/25lck/55def/30res/325 total

The exceptions to this rule are Est type units, who get a growths total of 350 and Jeigans, who get a growths total of 220-240.

[Jubby]

Now from my own curiosity, that's with class growths already added on, right? So you wouldn't have like, the charater set to 90% HP growth PLUS the knight class's own growths, would you? I haven't done much of any growths either, myself

[Parrhesia]

Keep in mind that defences are usually smaller than people think; for instance, Kent has 25% defence growth, and Sain has 20%.

[Smiley Jim]

Now from my own curiosity, that's with class growths already added on, right? So you wouldn't have like, the charater set to 90% HP growth PLUS the knight class's own growths, would you? I haven't done much of any growths either, myself

This is for GBA hacking, so all growths are the character's total growths.

In a DS setting, in order to get the growths shown, I would use the following:

Knight Growths: 60HP/15str/-15mag/20skl/0spd/30def/-10res

Example Unit's Base Growths: 30HP/40str/10mag/20skl/30spd/30lck/25def/30res(40 if I wanted that much res growth as I have on the GBA guy)

Final Growths: 90HP/55str/0mag/40skl/30spd/30lck/55def/20res

[shadowofchaos]

i just go with 0 everywhere

Dammit dondon... AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I am not worthy.

As for me? What hack? I've never finished any except for utilities, helping people one their own hacks, and random animations.

[Jubby]

This is for GBA hacking, so all growths are the character's total growths.

In a DS setting, in order to get the growths shown, I would use the following:

Knight Growths: 60HP/15str/-15mag/20skl/0spd/30def/-10res

Example Unit's Base Growths: 30HP/40str/10mag/20skl/30spd/30lck/25def/30res(40 if I wanted that much res growth as I have on the GBA guy)

Final Growths: 90HP/55str/0mag/40skl/30spd/30lck/55def/20res

I know it's for GBA, yeah, I was just wondering. That's what I thought, thanks. :P

[dondon151]

Dammit dondon... AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I am not worthy.

btw i am totally, completely serious.

[shadowofchaos]

btw i am totally, completely serious.

No, I know. Because you do the 0% growth runs. That's why I'm bowing.

I remember you asking me about how to hack the FE10 Growth rates and since it was built into the game to always have one stat up a level, you had to settle with them growing HP every time they level up.

[Crimson Red]

300% can be a bit high

I usually make it differ on an individual basis: naturally some characters have lower base stats and have higher growths to accomodate for that, or vice-versa. Characters with less levels to grow might have higher growths just because said growths can't be abused. Many characters have certain strengths or weaknesses to their stats/growths: e.g. one Cavalier may be strong while another is fast (where have we seen that, I wonder?). I think HP is a bit less in value growth-wise than other stats: having a 70 growth in strength is extremely high and would make them do tons of damage, whereas a 70 HP growth would be average and reminiscent of maybe even a magical unit :O.

Never go over 400% (even 350% is overpowered, usually, unless like I said before the character doesn't have room to grow), and don't go under somewhere around 220-230, I'd say, because if you do you risk making a unit that sucks and does not have any reason statistically to be used over another unit (granted there are other factors like "this unit is good for recruiting", "this unit has X skill", "this unit has Y weapon levels", or "this unit has Z supports" or something).

[dondon151]

No, I know. Because you do the 0% growth runs. That's why I'm bowing.

I remember you asking me about how to hack the FE10 Growth rates and since it was built into the game to always have one stat up a level, you had to settle with them growing HP every time they level up.

no, i mean, my hack has 0% growths

[Parrhesia]

I don't think 300% is a bit high, considering that usually people are disappointed with 2-stat levels and unless I'm truly abysmal with mathematics 300% translates to 3 stats a level on average.

You just need units to have existent HP, luck and skill.

[Agro]

300%-315% is a normal growth rate for most unpromoted units. I typically only go over when I want a unit to be overpowered or if they come with terrible bases. 270 miiiight be a bit high for prepromotes, I'd say they're closer to 250 most of the time.

For defensive stats (Defense and Resistance) anything lower than 20% is generally considered terrible/bad. This depends greatly on the character's base stats, though. Unless they're a specialised armour unit, 20-30% defense is normal. Going over 40% defense brings them into armourknight territory, I think. Resistance is generally either low (15-25%) or high (40-60%) for physical units and magic units respectively. I personally consider Res to be the least useful stat overall since magic enemies are less common than physical enemies.

Offensive stats (Strength, Skill and Speed) are usually between 40-50%, with 40 being alright and 50 being good. Anything over 50 is usually very good. 30-35% can be passable if your base is high enough. A level 1 character with 7 base speed and a 35% growth is mostly going to do alright if he also has decent Str and Def. Any of these being lower than 30% usually puts them in "terrible".

HP is normally around 40-50% for female magic users, 60-70% for male magic users, and 75%-90% for physical units.

Generally a younger character has higher Luck and females will tend to have more Luck than males.

Again, the intrinsic value of growths largely depends on base stats. If you go look up growth rates on SF you'll begin to get a feel for what kind of growths constitute "good" and what kind constitute "bad". Hope this helps!

[Parrhesia]

Resistance should generally be hovering around the 0-5% mark, and HP should bottom at around 75 for prepromoted mage lolis and hit around 130 at the high end.

[CrashGordon94]

Actually, having super-duper mega growths on a character is perfectly fine, you just have to think about when you implement such growths really.

[Blazing Samurai8905]

300%-315% is a normal growth rate for most unpromoted units. I typically only go over when I want a unit to be overpowered or if they come with terrible bases. 270 miiiight be a bit high for prepromotes, I'd say they're closer to 250 most of the time.

For defensive stats (Defense and Resistance) anything lower than 20% is generally considered terrible/bad. This depends greatly on the character's base stats, though. Unless they're a specialised armour unit, 20-30% defense is normal. Going over 40% defense brings them into armourknight territory, I think. Resistance is generally either low (15-25%) or high (40-60%) for physical units and magic units respectively. I personally consider Res to be the least useful stat overall since magic enemies are less common than physical enemies.

Offensive stats (Strength, Skill and Speed) are usually between 40-50%, with 40 being alright and 50 being good. Anything over 50 is usually very good. 30-35% can be passable if your base is high enough. A level 1 character with 7 base speed and a 35% growth is mostly going to do alright if he also has decent Str and Def. Any of these being lower than 30% usually puts them in "terrible".

HP is normally around 40-50% for female magic users, 60-70% for male magic users, and 75%-90% for physical units.

Generally a younger character has higher Luck and females will tend to have more Luck than males.

Again, the intrinsic value of growths largely depends on base stats. If you go look up growth rates on SF you'll begin to get a feel for what kind of growths constitute "good" and what kind constitute "bad". Hope this helps!

Actually this was perfect. Thank you all!!!

I never thought of using the total Percentages as a guide (tells me i need to pay closer attention to what im doing) but I will also use the character's personality as a factor also. Mainly I've been looking at the fire emblem wiki (dorky I know) to get the base stats of characters I am already familiar with and want my characters to turn out similar to. I'll do a litt bit more research though. Thanks again!!!

[dondon151]

by the way i really disagree with growth differentiation and all that other bullshit

if you want a unit to grow into a strong, fast, etc. unit, then use a high str, spd, etc. growth by all means. but if you want a fast unit to stay fast, or a strong unit to stay strong, you don't need to heap on a 50%+ growth on top of an already good base. that just widens the statistical gap between classes when the gap should already exist in the class bases.

example: if swordmasters have 13 base spd and warriors have 9 base spd, then you don't need an SM with 70% spd growth and a warrior with a 30% spd growth to convey the point that SMs are fast. the swordmaster will always double the warrior even if they both had 30% spd growth. similarly, you don't need to give your general a 50% def growth because that very quickly outpaces the enemies' atk growth (keep in mind that you're also growing HP on top of that). enemies have 50% str growth maximum (fighters) and also level up very slowly. unless you want your general to be an invincible juggernaut that requires no brain for a casual player to use, then consider using a 20% def growth or lower.

also consider using lower HP growths in general. the only weapon upgrades that enemies get are iron -> steel -> silver, with typically a 7 MT gap between iron and silver. that's like, a 14 HP difference over 2 attacks - and really, your typical character should be getting 2-3RKO'd unless he is bulky in some way. so you ideally want to be growing ~14 HP over the course of the entire game for a character that exists during the entire game.

the truth is that you should not be looking at existing fire emblem games as a good example. a lot of the time, they don't get it right. you have SMs that double everything and dodge everything and dracoknights that shrug off physical damage on one side of the spectrum, and growth units that don't really grow fast enough or well enough on the other side of the spectrum.

but 0% growths are still the best

Edited June 19, 2012 by dondon151

[Rothene]

But without growths, it becomes harder to design early game units that are still viable in late game unless they all start with endgame base stats. Which means enemies will have to start off at equivalent stats to maintain a challenge.

Unless you personally like the idea of whole groups of units rendered useless beyond their starting chapter because while enemies grow stronger, they do not keep up. And static stats makes every playthrough essentially the same since there will be no variation.

[GreatEclipse]

by the way i really disagree with growth differentiation and all that other bullshit

if you want a unit to grow into a strong, fast, etc. unit, then use a high str, spd, etc. growth by all means. but if you want a fast unit to stay fast, or a strong unit to stay strong, you don't need to heap on a 50%+ growth on top of an already good base. that just widens the statistical gap between classes when the gap should already exist in the class bases.

example: if swordmasters have 13 base spd and warriors have 9 base spd, then you don't need an SM with 70% spd growth and a warrior with a 30% spd growth to convey the point that SMs are fast. the swordmaster will always double the warrior even if they both had 30% spd growth. similarly, you don't need to give your general a 50% def growth because that very quickly outpaces the enemies' atk growth (keep in mind that you're also growing HP on top of that). enemies have 50% str growth maximum (fighters) and also level up very slowly. unless you want your general to be an invincible juggernaut that requires no brain for a casual player to use, then consider using a 20% def growth or lower.

also consider using lower HP growths in general. the only weapon upgrades that enemies get are iron -> steel -> silver, with typically a 7 MT gap between iron and silver. that's like, a 14 HP difference over 2 attacks - and really, your typical character should be getting 2-3RKO'd unless he is bulky in some way. so you ideally want to be growing ~14 HP over the course of the entire game for a character that exists during the entire game.

the truth is that you should not be looking at existing fire emblem games as a good example. a lot of the time, they don't get it right. you have SMs that double everything and dodge everything and dracoknights that shrug off physical damage on one side of the spectrum, and growth units that don't really grow fast enough or well enough on the other side of the spectrum.

That all sounds plausible enough, but it breaks down in many situations. For example, units with low CON relative to their weapons (Such as Peg Knights and some Myrmidons/Thieves), and who also really depend on avoid for survival, need extremely high SPD for that stat build to work. Like, enough to hit their un-promoted cap before 15/-- in many cases. Florina and Fiora would suck much less as fighters, even given the fairly slow enemies, if they had 80% SPD growths. Also, while a 30% growth in that area my be as good for said units as 80% when it comes to fighting Brigands, if you want anyone who can reliably double Mercenaries/Myrmidons/Nomads and their promoted counterparts throughout the game, such high growths may be necessary unless your faster units have bases on par with someone like Rutger or Raven.

On durability, keep in mind that the number of enemies you are expected to tank on enemy phase has a tendency to go up as you get further in the game, so unless you want to trade quantity for quality on that front, defensive growths that at least slightly outpace enemy MT increases is a good idea on units that need to take hits. As for HP, the fact that it needs to be increased by huge quantities in order to make a difference for all but the most frail (Mostly healers who need to avoid being killed in one hit) is an argument for higher variations between different kinds of units, not less. In most cases I would recommend just jacking up the base if you want someone to be notable for high HP, especially for the "pin-cushion" defensive build common to primary axe users, but if you must do it through growths, seriously consider going well above 100%.

[CrashGordon94]

I have to say, I strongly disagree with Dondon on reinforcing stat strengths with high growths. I guess that could work for certain specific units but generally reinfocing their strengths with good growths is a good idea.

On another note, while having a general growth total (or a few) as a simple guideline is probably a good idea sticking to that strongly probably isn't. Some stats are less "valuable" than others and would require a larger gap for balance (i.e. If Unit X had higher Skill but Unit Y has higher Strength then Unit X's SKL lead would need to be numerically larger than Unit Y's STR lead to balance them), and that would lead to the ones with the leads in "weaker" stats (like Skill, Resistance, Luck and HP) having higher growths than the ones with leads in "stronger" stats (like Strength, Speed and Defence). Not to mention that you could often have good reasons to strongly break the molds for various characters.

[Refa]

But without growths, it becomes harder to design early game units that are still viable in late game unless they all start with endgame base stats. Which means enemies will have to start off at equivalent stats to maintain a challenge.

More statboosting items, better promo gains, useful proof (or maybe just high rank) wepons, I can think of a few ways for early joining units to be viable. Dunno what dondon has in mind though.

[CrashGordon94]

Or just forgot about growthlessness because it's a bad idea.

[Agro]

It's not necessarily a bad idea. It encourages unit-swapping, moving on from other units over keeping units that you've been using since the beginning and early promotions which has the potential to be much more fun. Forces a player to think about a character's usefulness relative to joining time and things like availability go almost completely out the window since a lot of units will become useless after a while. It's just a different way of playing GBAFE; the hacks are beginning to get a bit stale since they don't do an awful lot to separate themselves from their bases.

I have to say, I strongly disagree with Dondon on reinforcing stat strengths with high growths. I guess that could work for certain specific units but generally reinfocing their strengths with good growths is a good idea.

Why? What in the world is the point of having someone like Guy have a Speed base of 11 and giving him a 70% growth while stats like his Strength remain eternally abysmal? I'd much rather a unit like FE12 Palla who has a relatively low Strength base but a higher growth and a high Speed base but a lower growth. It allows units to stop giving one-note performances--eventually Palla stops being a fragile stick and turns into a mobile tank by the time she's promoted. It's just a different way of using the same mold that seems to be repeated in every FE hack. GBAFE seems to be all about "Here is a unit; his Speed will be high and that's kind of what he does", but that's getting boring. IMO, it's much more fun to have something like "Here is a unit: his Speed starts off high but begins to plateau, but you'll see that he starts to grow in other areas so that his utility will transform over the course of the game" or something like that. anyway w/e i've been working on this post too long