Chiki Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 Okay so Titania is required for max BEXP in 2 chapters How many is Kieran needed for? What about Oscar? I'm pretty sure it's less than 2 Edit: Also why is Chapter 10 being ignored? 2 chapters? I said one. The point of this thread isn't to compare Titania to Kieran and Oscar.. I'm simply saying she's overrated. Because Chapter 10 has a requirement of 7, when it can be done easily in far less than that without Titania. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Why exactly is matching max BEXP requirements, as opposed to low-turning, our goal here? The goal of the run is to get as much BEXP as possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 A problem I've had with people not penalizing Jeigans and assuming that they're used as much as possible to be efficient is that they take valuable experience from other units and are unable to use it as effectively as other units. I'm pretty sure Sigurd uses EXP much more effectively than Alec or Noish ever would. Same goes for Seth when compared to Franz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) 2 chapters? I said one. The point of this thread isn't to compare Titania to Kieran and Oscar.. I'm simply saying she's overrated. Because Chapter 10 has a requirement of 7, when it can be done easily in far less than that without Titania. Oh, you meant two as in Chapter 2. Okay. Anyway, she's "overrated" because you rank units in different standards than most people here. Most people here rank units on their ability to contribute to an LTC run, where Titania's early game is heads and shoulders above everyone else in the game and DOES matter that much because you can get turncounts that are impossible without her, and due to the large amount of BEXP in the game you aren't actually hurting your mid and late game at all. This thread is the equivalent of going to a forum where people tier based on Ranked playthroughs and going "Wow you guys underrate Marcus" when the reduced EXP gain Marcus has means he actually isn't that good in Ranked (although I think he's still like High). Edited July 23, 2012 by Paperblade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Why exactly is matching max BEXP requirements, as opposed to low-turning, our goal here? The goal of the run is to get as much BEXP as possible? Most people here rank units on their ability to contribute to an LTC run Well, that's just because it's the topic of the argument. But if you want to consider an LTC playthrough, Titania is much worse and just outright inferior to Marcia and/or Jill (if you decide to recruit her). Titania has no use after chapter 11, while characters like Ike, Mist, Kieran, Oscar, Marcia/Jill, and your siege tome user have to gain experience. Exp is soooo important in an LTC playthrough because there's so little of it to go around. 1. Kieran/Oscar have to be promoted by 17-2. 2. Ike has to be near level 20 by 17. 3. Mist has to have high magic by the time you get Rescue. 4. Marcia/Jill just break the game with lots of bexp after Chapter 11. 5. Your siege tome user needs to have a high level in order to actually double and kill things. And so on. Edited July 23, 2012 by Aeine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Yeah, but that's not what your argument was earlier. Your argument earlier was "Titania steals EXP from units with better potential, and I can get max BEXP without her." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Yeah, but that's not what your argument was earlier. Your argument earlier was "Titania steals EXP from units with better potential, and I can get max BEXP without her." The only reason for that was because someone happened to mention the bexp turn requirements and it became the topic of the argument. I can explain why, for every playstyle that involves some kind of efficiency, that Titania isn't the godly and the turn-cutting goddess people think she is. Edited July 23, 2012 by Aeine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I am pretty sure you are overestimating how strong units actually have to be for LTC or underestimating how much CEXP/BEXP people can get, but you should probably talk to someone who actually likes LTC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 I am pretty sure you are overestimating how strong units actually have to be for LTC or underestimating how much CEXP/BEXP people can get, but you should probably talk to someone who actually likes LTC. Yeah, you should talk to me. http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=33397 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just call me AL Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Yeah, you should talk to me. http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=33397 I'm pretty sure he meant that you should talk to someone like dondon on a matter like this.At any rate, I'm just too confused to understand where you're coming from. "You don't need Titania for LTC. In fact, Titania hurts LTC runs." just seems like a contradictory statement if you ask me. Especially with all of the responses everyone else gave. Edited July 23, 2012 by Little Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 I'm pretty sure he meant that you should talk to someone like dondon on a matter like this. At any rate, I'm just too confused to understand where you're coming from. "You don't need Titania for LTC. In fact, Titania hurts LTC runs." just seems like a contradictory statement if you ask me. Especially with all of the responses everyone else gave. jushiro's data is pretty credible; it's just that he thinks there's only one way to do things. You guys.. seriously. >_> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 The point of this thread isn't to compare Titania to Kieran and Oscar.. I'm simply saying she's overrated. Titania is rated as the best unit in FE9. If she's overrated, that means someone is better than her. If not Oscar or Kieran, who? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 You could make an argument for Marcia or Jill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 Titania is rated as the best unit in FE9. If she's overrated, that means someone is better than her. If not Oscar or Kieran, who? Well, I'm pretty sure Marcia cuts a lot more turns in LTC playthroughs. Or Jill if you use her. There are a lot of chapters where flight is important in FE9, thanks to map designs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Yep and people agree with that, but you were discrediting her based on her earlygame, not Marcia/Jill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Guys, guys... I think what Aeine is trying to say is that if one wants to shave off as many turns as humanly possible, Titania's base stats eventually stop being "just good enough" to achieve the lowest turns, so if the player doesn't try to give the vast amount of experience Titania can "waste" so easily at least partially to your other units early on (Oscar, Ike, maybe Boyd - not sure what Boyd does in really perfectionist LTC) to the best of your ability, you're hurting your turn counts in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Well, I'm pretty sure Marcia cuts a lot more turns in LTC playthroughs. Or Jill if you use her. There are a lot of chapters where flight is important in FE9, thanks to map designs. You could make an argument for Marcia or Jill Okay, so still in line with what seem to be common ratings. Edited July 23, 2012 by Othin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Yep and people agree with that, but you were discrediting her based on her earlygame, not Marcia/Jill I've done multiple things in the course of this thread to prove that she's overrated. I was calling her overrated from the beginning, and I've said this multiple times. Please don't put words in my mouth. Guys, guys... I think what Aeine is trying to say is that if one wants to shave off as many turns as humanly possible, Titania's base stats eventually stop being "just good enough" to achieve the lowest turns, so if the player doesn't try to give the vast amount of experience Titania can "waste" so easily at least partially to your other units early on (Oscar, Ike, maybe Boyd - not sure what Boyd does in really perfectionist LTC) to the best of your ability, you're hurting your turn counts in the long run. Thank you. Edited July 23, 2012 by Aeine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 You have a funny definition of "prove". You've made claims, but you don't pay attention to evaluations of the validity of those claims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) You've proved things in about as much detail as I have, and your primary point starting out was that it was only her early-game that was overrated. I'm sure anyone can tell you she's hardly valuable after Chapter 11 (I know in my playthrough I pretty much dropped her altogether at Chapter 16, and I could go on a paragraph as to why it took so long for me to do it), but her early-game is a very powerful point in her favor that you are severely underrating yourself. Titania gains like 3 EXP per battle too, whereas Oscar gains something in the 20s. All that CEXP early on is unnecessary because later BEXP more than makes up for it -_- And Oscar/Ike/Boyd get enough CEXP to get by anyway. You do not lose long-term TCs because you use Titania a little too much, because 90% of your team just sits on their hands while Marcia rushes and kills everything in her path anyway. Edited July 23, 2012 by Lord Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 You should've made yourself a little clearer with that opening post. What you posted was basically "Marcus hogs exp", what you should've posted would be something like "I hold the world record for the lowest turn playthrough in FE: PoR and my observation was that over-reliance on Titania is detrimental to turn counts". I recall reading the thread you posted with your turn counts earlier, and while the video with endgame statistics was nice (I couldn't believe Mia was so useful), it wouldn't hurt to know how it went, i.e. what you focused on (e.g. promoting Oscar before this or that chapter, or having somebody reach a specific stat by some point), how you used your money, what items you chose to sacrifice for the greater good of lower turn counts, what characters contributed and when, etc. You're making mystifying arguments based on one single playthrough that you did, but nobody besides you knows its specifics, and looking at the final turn counts alone may or may not allow us to understand what you're trying to prove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted July 23, 2012 Author Share Posted July 23, 2012 I didn't want to mention my playthrough because I'd sound arrogant, to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 You guys.. seriously. >_> he also said this lest you forget: i can say just the opposite and you can't prove otherwise i hope you realize how inane it is to judge units solely by the number of turns saved because it relegates comparisons solely to context rather than to every other single attribute of the unit itself. you're no longer rating the unit any more. right now you're about as close-minded as an amish ashkenazi jew and i sincerely hope that you learn to develop some sense of humility if you want anyone to take you seriously. Bolded the actual important part for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) i think that jushiro is not really making a coherent point and no one understands what he's trying to say titania is not "overrated" as he claims because that's not a good choice of words. he's saying that a player should use titania to the point where the lowest turncount is achievable, and precisely that much so that resources on the margin can be allocated to weaker units (so that they'll be slightly stronger in the long run). this is not quite as obvious as "grass is green" and "sky is blue;" maybe more along the lines of "the earth is round" or "the earth orbits around the sun," but i don't believe that there is an argument against this obvious statement. it is implicitly accepted already that scraps go to the losers and the more scraps, the better. now, i don't personally believe that there is any merit to jushiro's argument that titania should be completely dropped, because 20-something chapters down the road, you are not going to wish that you are deploying astrid or makalov instead of titania because the marginal utility of that last deployment slot very quickly approaches zero. i'm willing to bet that most of the time, you can deploy the FE9 equivalent of fiona in that last slot and not really observe a difference. Edited July 23, 2012 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 I didn't want to mention my playthrough because I'd sound arrogant, to be honest. But if you don't refer to that, you simply won't express what you're trying to express. By now a particular tradition of playing the game has shaped and we're all aware of it - Titania is too good in the early maps, very good later on when given all the early bosskills and still a competent Paladin late into the game with a forge, while the other people just feed off the BEXP Titania gains for them and perform miscellaneous other functions. You'll have to be specific in which way the game should be played differently so that no turn is lost early on but with less Titania action, and how that affects whatever chapters Titania-reliant players would lose turns on later on (I'm guessing you mean the BEXP you get isn't enough to produce the lowest possible turn counts). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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