Theatre Mafia GAME OVER

[Paperblade]

Ok, scum reads like Kaoz asked. I'm still not feeling BBM. As I stated yesterday, I feel like his posts were filled with mostly trying to get people off of him by diverting attention and not actually scum hunting. I also feel like Straw hasn't really been around, and then yesterday, he had a vote on BBM, later claimed he wasn't sure a BBM lynch but didn't unvote BBM. Then his very next post he says he's fine with a BBM lynch. It feels like he's trying to contribute by seeming to scum hunt, but he doesn't really give anything to the ongoings. So.

##Vote: BBM

I would also be ok with a Straw lynch

what

[scorri]

Yes?

Seriously. Go look at Straw's last day phase. His reads are waffeling all over the place and he doesn't actually contribute anything that is very helpful. I mean... I might be insane here, but to me that strikes me in a really off way.

[Paperblade]

not that

the vote and paragraph before that

I'm seriously confused at what you're saying because of pronouns and shit

[scorri]

Ok, scum reads like Kaoz asked. I'm still not feeling BBM. As I stated yesterday, I feel like his posts were filled with mostly trying to get people off of him by diverting attention and not actually scum hunting.

(switch to talking about straw here)

I also feel like Straw hasn't really been around, and then yesterday, he had a vote on BBM, later claimed he wasn't sure a BBM lynch but didn't unvote BBM. Then his very next post he says he's fine with a BBM lynch. It feels like he's trying to contribute by seeming to scum hunt, but he doesn't really give anything to the ongoings. So.

##Vote: BBM

I would also be ok with a Straw lynch

Oh. Well, oops. I meant to say not feeling BBM as town. That'd be one confusion. Sorry about that. What else?

[Prims]

Seriously. Go look at Straw's last day phase. His reads are waffeling all over the place and he doesn't actually contribute anything that is very helpful. I mean... I might be insane here, but to me that strikes me in a really off way.

have you played with strawman for like more than a phase before?

p. sure that scum!Strawduck would just not have any reads at all and be active lurking a lot more. Meta aside he looks good as far as flips are concerned based on Manix wagon position.

[scorri]

To me, his posts just still feel wrong. I feel like there's too many posts without really contributing anything. I dunno.

[BBM]

Okay, Scorri, since your change of heart concerning SB had to do with meta, if his play here is similar to his play in BCM/SFM, what's the difference in his play here and his play in SSBU, where he was scum? In that way, SB is hard to read as scum because he looks disinterested and inactive as both town and scum. So I don't really get that point.

Also, I don't understand- if pointing out scummy things that I thought other people did is simply trying to "divert attention" and not scumhunting, then what is scumhunting? >_>

Also, in Strawman's case the problem is not enough posts not the quality of them. I actually think that almost all his posts have had good content in them.

[Bluedoom]

BBM, I'm gonna ask this again, but do you think Weapons and Scorri could both be scum?

[BBM]

I think it's possible. Although Scorri gave an explanation, I still don't like how quickly she dropped Weapons. It could have been early distancing.

[Bluedoom]

...I... see. I'm not really sure about that because it implies this:

Manix bussed Weapons.

Iris bussed Scorri and Manix.

Weapons bussed Manix and Scorri got on the opposite end of it.

Scorri bussed Weapons and Manix.

Which I don't really understand- there's no reason for all the mafia members to buss each other in just one day phase, and I guess I find it troubling that you would've thought of that possibility. I personally don't like that you've done it twice now: In D3 you jumped on me and then after soem questioning you went on Core. This phase you jumped on Weapons(questionable at this point) and then went on Scorri. make no mistake, I find Scorri's actions real scummy and I'm only second guessing because of the Iris ISO, but I'm quite wary of you.

[BBM]

I'm pretty sure that no matter who the scum are, they bussed Manix at some point or the other, because just about everyone was saying that Manix was obvscum by the end. Scorri in particular was sort of wishy-washy about Manix until he claimed Deputy, by which time it was barely even a question. Weapons and Iris were on Manix from pretty early though.

And yeah, I don't see much wrong with everyone bussing each other, especially that the best way to play as scum is to imagine that you're town, and act the same way. So if you see your teammate doing something scummy you point it out and get townie points. Plus, bussing super early is the best way to do it because people suspect it the least and gut reads are formed earlier more often than later, because early there aren't as many non-gut things to use.

Also, I don't claim perfect scum reads. It's also possible that I'm wrong about Weapons or Scorri or both, but I think there's a good chance that they might be scum, which is why I've voted for them.

[Bluedoom]

So you don't claim perfect reads then? I see...

Also in regards to bussing, I just find it weird because that also implies all the scum bussed each other hard, which is risky because they're selling themselves as targets. Iris bussed Manix and Scorri pretty hard, manix would've bussed Weapons hard in self-defence, Weapons pretty much tunneled hard on Manix throughout that phase, and Scorri was... on Weapons for quite sometime, and then switched to an SB or Manix waffling. I guess she'd be the one who bussed the least... hrm.

Oh w/e, I can't believe I haven't done this yet.

##Unvote

##Vote: Scorri

Too much waffling on your reads, and pretty much did everything which I think is scummy(hint mainly regarding your read on SB). Why Iris tunneled hard on you is beyond me, but for now this vote stays.

Also if Scorri is scum I'd like to think Kaoz is town simply because her bussing and waffling on both her buddies would be stupid.

[Paperblade]

With the cop dead the mafia busing each other like that would be very confusing, so I don't think it's entirely unreasonable

[scorri]

Okay, Scorri, since your change of heart concerning SB had to do with meta, if his play here is similar to his play in BCM/SFM, what's the difference in his play here and his play in SSBU, where he was scum? In that way, SB is hard to read as scum because he looks disinterested and inactive as both town and scum. So I don't really get that point.

Also, I don't understand- if pointing out scummy things that I thought other people did is simply trying to "divert attention" and not scumhunting, then what is scumhunting? >_>

Wrt SB, I dunno, the read of his games feel different to me. I think that might be because I was scum with SB in SSBU so I understand a little better why he did what he did, but to me the way he's playing right now seems different to me than the way he acted in that game.

And wrt to diverting things, it's more of the way you're doing it. It feels less like you're trying to find people who are scum and more like you're trying to find people who might seem more scummy than you so that people will stop paying attention to you.

With Straw, eh. I dunno. To me, his posts especially later in D3 seem kinda empty.

[scorri]

Marth: Would you mind explaining what exactly "everything else you think is scummy" is? It's kinda hard for me to explain my actions when all you do is give me a hint. Am I not allowed to change my opinions on people? Because that's all I see myself doing with SB. And as for waffling, I'm always at least a little waffly. I don't have enough experience on scum hunting to be good at it. So a lot of what I rely on is gut, and while I try to figure out why my gut is telling me something, that changes really easily. So yeah. If you could please explain what exactly you find scummy about me I'd be much obliged. S

[Bluedoom]

Ok so here are the reasons:

1. Attack on Weapons at first which was pretty stupid and pretty much what Manix did. Unlike Manix you didn't tunnel him afterwards but Manix was already a good example of why you shouldn't do that.

2. Joining the 'SB criticizing organization' without giving out any other real scumreads. And like I said, calling out SB at that time was like feigning townish behavior. Manix doesn't count because he just kept making himself look worse and worse and everyone(bar shinori) thought he was scum.

3. Yet for some reason you waffle between SB and Manix to see who was more scummy. I guess this isn't as strong of a point as previous points but its linked to another point(I'll get to that in a bit) but honestly I think that was feigning confusion. Manix did look pretty scummy before that and all SB did was not post much. How is inactivity a great scumtell? Manix's flip-flopping looked pretty bad you know.

4. Allowing (or the idea of) Weapons to hammer when you had your suspicion on him. Unless that was some sort of reaction test(and you never claimed later on so I doubt it) I don't see why you'd let a suspicious player do whatever he likes. Now before that point you didn't want to vote Manix because you wanted to allow more discussion. I would say that the SB vote was pretty much for that reason. But suddenly deciding to allow a hammer later? I don't really think you found SB scummy, but rather you wanted to find a reason to vote him and not hop on to the Manix wagon.

5. You find me scummy for voting SB, who you had voted over Manix during D2. So what? If you couldn't decide between manix and SB, like I said, it means SB was considerably scummy at that point. Do you still find me scummy? If so, why do you? If not, I'm curious as to why you changed your mind and why you never stated that. You also never mentioned SB for many posts until the one where you 'handwave' Rapier's and SB's scumminess and suddenly say SB was town. Meta's a pretty bad argument- I could use that argument and compare you to your SFM self where you were pretty diplomatic about your scumread on me. Guess what you flipped there? So yes, meta is useful, but you shouldn't rely on it so much that from a scum read you shift to a town read, especially when SB had done nothing. Its very questionable at this point.

6. Finally, you've just hopped on to wagons which seemed most likely possible. D2 -Manix and D3- BBM(and it looked really solid at that point) Its a weak point, I admit, but alogn with the others I can't help but note this.

[Kaoz]

Prims I didn't ask you something so that you would ignore it.

Kaoz is scummy because he didn't really *do* anything and voted someone who was under no threat of being lynched close to deadline

There was a little more than 10 hours left (which is a fair amount in my opinion), I didn't see the cases against the people that had a lot of votes on them and from my recollection, there was a decent amount of support for a scorri lynch (Iris, Marth from the top of my head, I believe there were others too). To support that it wasn't too close to deadline, Wen also only had two votes on him at that time, which apparently didn't stop anyone.

To me, his posts just still feel wrong. I feel like there's too many posts without really contributing anything. I dunno.

Would you mind pointing out some specific instances?

[scorri]

1) I am unsure why my "attack" on Weapons was stupid. I saw something that I thought was scummy, and since there was little that I had to base reads off of I went with it. It was early D2 after a short D1 so I wasn't working with a lot. But, I went with what I saw and what I felt and continued to pursue that until a) Weapons had actually addressed the point and given us a post with some content and b) I realized I was probably tunneling and so decided to back off for a bit. After I backed off and let things progress for a little I started to feel a bit better about Weapons.

2) My post was on the two major wagons that were happening at that point in time. Previously in the phase I had been talking about my reads and such, but my post about Manix and SB was simply on those two due to those two being the main wagons. Am I supposed to state every post who I think is scum?

3) I had two reads. I looked at the Manix wagon and saw something that had built quickly which always makes me a little nervous and was also very close to causing a lynch. So, since my two scum reads were basically the same strength I went with the person who had less votes to prevent Manix from quick hammering.

4) I still have no idea why this is an issue. A) I had clearly gotten over at least some of my feelings about Weapons. Second, I'm not sure why it matters who I was "offering" the hammer to when there was still plenty of time left in phase. It's not like there were 5 minutes left and I was telling someone I suspected to hammer. The lynch was going to happen one way or the other. If Weapons had had the ability to hammer and had refused to do so then that would have given us info. Either way, "offering" the hammer to Weapons in no way shape or form put the lynch in any danger, and I still don't get your point here. As for why I switched wagons, all that was happening at that point was Manix was sowing confusion and causing people to doubt about the lynch bomb thing. As you saw, it was causing discussion well into the next phase. I figured that since nothing useful was happening, my reasoning for not voting Manix before that was not really as applicable.

5) It wasn't that you voted specifically for SB, it was the way you did it. You hopped on a wagon and didn't explain anything. Just because it may seem obvious to you why you're voting someone doesn't mean you shouldn't still explain for the rest of us. I'm neutral on you right now to be honest. I'm not really sure what to make of you. I don't think you're scummy any more, but I'm not sure I think you're town either. I dunno. And once again. Am I not allowed to change my mind? I had one read of SB at first, and then thought about it more and took into consideration other people's actions and changed it. Whoopdeedo. It happens. I'm not perfect. I can't pick out the scum team every time. I change my mind.

6) Uhm... so I'm not supposed to vote who I think is scummy? Wagons build because people think someone is scum. I voted who I thought was scum. That's what I'm supposed to do, right? So what if people agree with me. That's generally considered a good thing actually because then we might be on to something.

[Prims]

Forgot about it.

I've flipped to myself. I find Weapons, Paperblade and Strawman scum to be very unlikely given the circumstances of Manix's wagon - even if Manix looked pretty bad, more than one person hard bussing him seems like a bit much given that he was scum's roleblocker of all things. Also that wasn't a major point I was trying to push so much as random speculation and was marked as such.

Your vote on me still reads like a bunch of token questioning and no case btw.

I don't think scorri is scum, but I'll re-read her tomorrow. I'm busy at the moment.

[Prims]

Also, Paperblade needs to vote somebody. If he already has then I've missed the vote multiple times somehow.

[scorri]

[i am still fine with a BBM or Rapier lynch. Wen, not as much simply because I have a null read. Today is going to be busy, first day of class. Should be on before phase end if I did my math correctly. ]

"I'm fine with these wagons. Except the one who I have no opinion on. I won't be around today." Basically, he tells us nothing in this that is helpful at all. So he's fine with 2/3 of the main wagons of the day, and the other one he doesn't have a read. That changes nothing at all in how the rest of the day went. This was basically an empty post that made it seem like he was contributing.

Huh, day 1 and most of day 2 had me sure BBM is scum. But the recent tone in his posts is making me doubt myself(seriously what is my problem with waffling near phase end?).

His "claim" could just as easily be a cop out as the truth, but I don't see the benefit in the cop out as scum.

Also when does scum ever tell the town to look at the people who do/don't vote them like that? Seems pointless since when you flip scum that opinion pretty much becomes void.

Up until these recent posts I was practically sure.

This post basically say nothing. It's a bunch of random musing on how maybe he thinks BBM is scum, but maybe not. I don't really see the point in posting this especially because it didn't change his vote. To me this reads as something that he could use to help cover his back depending on the BBM flip.

[Anyways, Rapier's long post was just eh. A lot of the opinions he gave in the long quote section weren't anything new. Still pondering whether I find this suspicious or expected since he came in late today and it can be hard to put out new opinions on things that have already been discussed. I do like that he shared his reads though, and though I don't recall agreeing on all of them, I didn't find anything scummy about them.]

Once again, he's putting out an opinion that's basically "Oh I could see this guy flipping either way but I don't really know."

[Paperblade]

I was going to say that I'm voting Weapons but apparently I'm not.

##Vote: Weapons

NOW I am voting Weapons

[Bluedoom]

1) I am unsure why my "attack" on Weapons was stupid. I saw something that I thought was scummy, and since there was little that I had to base reads off of I went with it. It was early D2 after a short D1 so I wasn't working with a lot. But, I went with what I saw and what I felt and continued to pursue that until a) Weapons had actually addressed the point and given us a post with some content and b) I realized I was probably tunneling and so decided to back off for a bit. After I backed off and let things progress for a little I started to feel a bit better about Weapons.

2) My post was on the two major wagons that were happening at that point in time. Previously in the phase I had been talking about my reads and such, but my post about Manix and SB was simply on those two due to those two being the main wagons. Am I supposed to state every post who I think is scum?

3) I had two reads. I looked at the Manix wagon and saw something that had built quickly which always makes me a little nervous and was also very close to causing a lynch. So, since my two scum reads were basically the same strength I went with the person who had less votes to prevent Manix from quick hammering.

4) I still have no idea why this is an issue. A) I had clearly gotten over at least some of my feelings about Weapons. Second, I'm not sure why it matters who I was "offering" the hammer to when there was still plenty of time left in phase. It's not like there were 5 minutes left and I was telling someone I suspected to hammer. The lynch was going to happen one way or the other. If Weapons had had the ability to hammer and had refused to do so then that would have given us info. Either way, "offering" the hammer to Weapons in no way shape or form put the lynch in any danger, and I still don't get your point here. As for why I switched wagons, all that was happening at that point was Manix was sowing confusion and causing people to doubt about the lynch bomb thing. As you saw, it was causing discussion well into the next phase. I figured that since nothing useful was happening, my reasoning for not voting Manix before that was not really as applicable.

5) It wasn't that you voted specifically for SB, it was the way you did it. You hopped on a wagon and didn't explain anything. Just because it may seem obvious to you why you're voting someone doesn't mean you shouldn't still explain for the rest of us. I'm neutral on you right now to be honest. I'm not really sure what to make of you. I don't think you're scummy any more, but I'm not sure I think you're town either. I dunno. And once again. Am I not allowed to change my mind? I had one read of SB at first, and then thought about it more and took into consideration other people's actions and changed it. Whoopdeedo. It happens. I'm not perfect. I can't pick out the scum team every time. I change my mind.

6) Uhm... so I'm not supposed to vote who I think is scummy? Wagons build because people think someone is scum. I voted who I thought was scum. That's what I'm supposed to do, right? So what if people agree with me. That's generally considered a good thing actually because then we might be on to something.

1) The original reasoning was questionable- its basically what Manix did, but he got called for it earlier and just got pissed off for that.

2) The reads you are talking about don't count because at that point Weapons was your biggest scum read. You also stated problems but never flat out stated any particular read. Once you let your guard down regarding Weapons, the next post was a retaliation to my post thinking you are scum. And after that you decide to type your view on both wagons and best of all, you find both equally scummy, which is also waffling. Waffling= being scummy. So yes, I would've expected you do something extra rather than doing what everyone else was doing which is - calling out on SB and calling out on Manix.

3) Alright, I'm of a different opinion on that but I can't refute your statement either.

4) I can't refute your point on this either, but we differ in opinions on how you handled Weapons.

5) Ok here's the deal: I mentioned SB in my earlier posts about why I felt he was pretty scummy. And SB didn't do anything new to change that. Yes I'm going to direct your statement right back at you- "Am I supposed to state every post who I think is scum?" And yes you are allowed to change your mind, but the reason why your opinion changed is questionable. If a scum read can change to a town read just by basing off of meta, then I need to call your reason into questioning. Alright, do tell me, what actions of the others have made SB look any townish? I'd like to know your reasoning clearly.

6) You're not understanding me: Its not that you're allowed to change your mind, its that the way you're doing it just looks too convenient. All I've seen you do is hop on to Manix and BBM with no original reasoning and echoing, and then have a waffly read on SB. There's hardly any contribution over here.

[BBM]

Paper, if you believe that a lot of bussing, especially with the Cop dead, is unnecessary, then why do you think Weapons is scum? Even if you don't think Scorri is scum, Weapons/Iris/Manix being scum would still mean that at least two members of the scumteam bussed Manix pretty hard from the get-go.

[Prims]

Requesting votals and timecount before I read.