Nostalgia Mafia Game Over

[BBM]

A last thought before I sleep, partially sparked by Eclipse: I feel like SB is leaving, and then just as people start to forget he's playing the game, he comes back to make a couple shallow and not very meaningful posts, just enough to put him above Anouleth/Tyrant level of activity, and then leaves again. I think Kirsche is doing something similar but the few posts he makes are okay (or better than SB's, at least), so I can buy that he simply doesn't have a lot of time.

Also, I'm kinda frustrated that as soon as people stopped poking Kay she stopped posting at all, although there might be another reason for that.

[Bluedoom]

Meh re-reading and I don't like the fact that everyone who posts just states something about Eli and then leaves. Iris, I'm looking at you. I know you're sick and all but it'd be better if you could say something else instead of 'kirsche's vote on Eli was bad, I don't think Eli should be lynched." Just because you're vote and post sorta looks like its defending Eli doesn't mean its helping in scumhunting that much. Your thoughts on other players, please.

Also how have I slipped under the radar? The fact is no one else looks at my posts and actually says anything about it when I ACTUALLY HAVE MORE TO SAY THAN JUST ABOUT ELI. One of my posts poked at Cam and all his reply was "I'm voting Elieson, aren't I?" I mean hell he didn't even read my whole point against him which was "and his vote against Elieson meh." I also talked about other players, and stated a case agaisnt Rapier, its not my fault people are just SO FOCUSED ON LYNCHING ELIESON. RAPIER, I AM LOOKING AT YOU, YOU WERE THE SAME PERSON WHO OVERREACTED TO THE SHINORI SITUATION WHEN IT WAS JUST TWO VOTES, NOW YOU'RE COOL ABOUT THIS HUGE WAGON ON ELI?

I'm sorry for typing in caps but people need to read my posts more because apparently I'm forgettable. >.<

Also Rapier, no, in the post I was referring to, you never said Kay was defensive, all you said was that she was passive aggressive, pushed a case on Prims and called her posts fluff. So, better come up with some concrete reads or answers because all I see you do is sheep people.

Guys, why are you all voting Elieson? Do you realize that NOW WE'RE ACTUALLY HEADED FOR A LYNCH? What, are you going to deprive town of discussion time? Do some actual scumhunting(SB,Aere,Cam, Psych) instead of whining about Elieson. If he looks real scummy at the end of the day we can lynch him, STOP THINKING SO LINEAR.

Personally think Psych is scummy too, because first he says everyone is dumb, then whines about Rein(which is a waste of time and doesn't get anywhere) and then hops on to the Eliwagon. Self-meta about how he plays as scum doesn't help his case, definitely no.2 on my list of suspects.

I can't say this enough no. of times, SB, Cam, Psych, Rein and Aere hardly do anything besides giving Eli shit. Psych and Rein had an argument but it looks stupid and pointless and IMO it may even be buddies distancing because its that pointless. Cam only goes against Eli anyway(thank you eclipse for putting forth the point I was trying to say), Aere is once again dukign it out with Eli and I don't understand why he's exactly scummy again, and Rein well... forgettable. Really.

That's 5. Then we've got Kay(who's posting something as I'm typing this) who vanished suddenly, Anouleth(who just started now), kirsche(busy apparently) and Sage who's studying for exams(god I should be doing this). With half the game almost who's either not helping or too busy, its going to make it very difficult to even do a bit of scumhunting. >.<

[Prims]

marth: would you vote aere at the end of the day

[Bluedoom]

Oh and finally Elieson PLEASE CLAIM NOW if you can because doing that few hours before ending sux. Also content with who I'm voting for because nothing has changed(and Rapier kinda sheeps everyone)

[Bluedoom]

marth: would you vote aere at the end of the day

depends. I still haven't understood the case on him yet.

[Grace]

quick interjection (I'm busy having my brain die on me with calculus), yes I am having a break right now

Guys, why are you all voting Elieson? Do you realize that NOW WE'RE ACTUALLY HEADED FOR A LYNCH? What, are you going to deprive town of discussion time?

the day ends in like 17 hours from now, from memory. It's not exactly like the is a lot of the day left anyway. By the time activity picks up again in... 7 hours or so, it will probably be well and truly LD1, and a lynch will need to be decided. That said, there isn't a counterwagon present right now, which basically means unless one picks up very soon, it's almost a foregone conclusion with the Elie lynch. But I digress.

-Call me crazy, but this almost sounds like someone really doesn't want Elie lynched. I need to check something out later with that... *adds to list*

Also my next best question while I'm here: why was I not mentioned for my attacking of Elie in your post Marth?

[eclipse]

quick interjection (I'm busy having my brain die on me with calculus), yes I am having a break right now

the day ends in like 17 hours from now, from memory. It's not exactly like the is a lot of the day left anyway. By the time activity picks up again in... 7 hours or so, it will probably be well and truly LD1, and a lynch will need to be decided. That said, there isn't a counterwagon present right now, which basically means unless one picks up very soon, it's almost a foregone conclusion with the Elie lynch. But I digress.

-Call me crazy, but this almost sounds like someone really doesn't want Elie lynched. I need to check something out later with that... *adds to list*

Also my next best question while I'm here: why was I not mentioned for my attacking of Elie in your post Marth?

Manix, are you so content with an Eli lynch that you're willing to stop everything, including scumhunting?

[Grace]

Maybe my wording implied it (I have horrible word choice sometimes), but I don't really want it to stop scumhunting

Without a counterwagon thus far, that might be somewhere to start (form one), because without one, we pretty much have to lynch Elie >_>

##Unvote until further notice. I need to think things through and reread, because on a memory only basis, I'm probably tunneling far too much for my own good

(and the reread will have to be later (probably an hour or so), because I really need to get this calc test done)

[Kay]

if ppl would just say "you know, he might be town, but he might be scum. I'm not gonna trust him nor attack him", then heck ok, that's a thing that is expected/10. But Cam just admitted to defending, because I pressed it so damn hard. So I found BUDDYING, on Day 1. Buddying is kind of a scumtell, isn't it?

If you think someone is town and some people think they are scummy, are you gonna go along and say nothing? Buddying can mean a lot of things. It could be scum buddying with town to try to look good ("Oh, everyone thinks I'm scum, but at least Paperblade is on my side, he must be town since otherwise he would be pushing for an easy lynch on me"), it could be scum buddying with scum to keep them alive, it could be town buddying with somebody they think is town to keep them alive. It needs to be looked at more carefully than just calling it a scumtell.

seee, first thing is outing town reads is generally bad and doesn't help town. Second, if you were gonna out town reads, the least you could do was state reasons.

I think SF's hatred of outing town reads is getting a bit excessive. Town reads tell the town things as well as the mafia. When someone dies, we're all smart enough to think about what their claimed reads were, right? I'll assume everyone except Eli acknowledges the use of posting scum reads. But as for town reads, what if someone flips cop? We can guess that they cleared someone they were defending. What if scum makes up lousy town reads ("Levity is obvtown because she's voting for Paperblade and he's scum"), or someone's town reads keep flipping scum way too much?

All this in exchange for the mafia having a better idea of who to kill. Because they totally wouldn't know who looked townish if we didn't say anything, right? No way they'd just kill good players who were active and not under much suspicion anyway.

Generally bad is one thing. That I don't agree with, but I can see the argument for it. Doesn't help town, not so true. Information always helps the town.

Meta and grasping

Meta

Grasping.

Meta (merely mentioned, right?)

---

Your reasoning on me is shoddy. 319 was a vote because of Manix and I having differing opinions. I feel that RVS ending promptly is more important, because it allows the players to not waste time waiting for someone to react/overreact. Manix believes that you can learn more from that. While both have their benefits, I see voting randomly to fill a wagon and wait for a reaction to be more scummy, as it doesn't move the game forward. It simply forces the game to trudge along until someone /finally/ pops up to say something. That time biding is scummy (in a sense that it's not neutral, and certainly not town) to me, even if it isn't an inheritely scummy action.

So, according to you, I'm scummy because I am me, combined with the fact that I find Manix scummy (thus voted him), and also that I didn't feel the need to out every scumread that I had all in one post. I've since then, outed my scumreads (now I have to split my focus and create and manage 5 cases at once, something I had hoped to do just a few at a time).

Why do you object to him using meta, when you yourself posted this (bold is mine):

For the record, on a scale of 1-100, prims is around 51% scummy, and that's because of his meta where I'm used to him starting a game off as town by doing ridiculous stunts like bluffing vig shots. He's being surprisingly mild and tame in this game, and it just seems slightly off to me. It'd be like if Shinori was all apologetic one game, or if Eclipse suddsnly decided to support massclaiming without explaination. I know it's weak, because it's meta, but I'm not willing to discredit it.

Then we've got Kay(who's posting something as I'm typing this) who vanished suddenly,

Uh, I haven't been home for more than an hour or so today, if that's what you mean by vanishing?

RE: Elie: Didn't bother fucking around because people reacted to the PGO claim pretty early and it got us here.

RE: Psych: Pretty sure that if I (or anybody) claimed doc ED1 scum would just assume I was trying to trick them! Plus I could end up shooting a safeguard / JK / whatever.

Won't be around until a couple hours before deadline tomorrow. We need to make sure to get a majority but seriously, don't fucking hammer early this time (Snike).

Regarding Manix vote: still bad, Elie's Manix vote wasn't opportunistic because what Manix was saying was bad gameplay theory but not actually scummy as it could not go back in time and stop Elie from ending the RVS. No reason for scum!Elie to expect an influx of votes on Manix. Feel like Manix is taking Elie making silly posts and running with it for mislynch. HOWEVER Manix lynch is obviously not happening today as people are just ignoring him!! Whatever.

Still do not want to lynch Elie. Refer to what I said about how he should've dropped the PGO push ages ago as scum after it just got people to call him out / vote him for faulty logic because they thought he was dumb. The case on me wasn't picking up traction and this is not a situation where sticking to his guns would make Elie look townier. Also he keeps getting votes which are basically opportunism 101.

##Unvote

##Vote: Aere (L-6) for counterwagon

The extent of his scumhunting is "Elie is my strongest read but (waffles)". Too big of a time period where he was posting a lot ED1 but not voting anybody, appears wait-and-see (or he just couldn't fake cases cuz he was scum).

I'm okay with Rapier lynch too but can't imagine it gathering the support because the votals are so scrambled and we're running out of time. Rapier's post was just what everybody else was saying with support for both big wagons, no comments on anybody who wasn't important at the time. Need more from him. Also what the fuck suspecting somebody when you admit they're doing something you do? Explain why it's only scummy when Marth does it?

Anouleth post seems shallow. Why call out Aere but not the other people on the Elie wagon with sheepy votes? Also, why aren't you voting?

Dude, I can kinda agree about Eli not being a fantastic lynch, although it seems like he's not that great at giving up on an idea when it makes him look terrible even as scum, he is at least contributing, while SB and Aere and some others aren't really nearly as active or as, uh... interesting. But, an Eli lynch would give us some info, since there's been time to discuss him. I don't like the way you're saying that suddenly we should lynch someone else. It seems too much like you want a meaningless speed lynch.

##Unvote (BBM)

##Vote: Serious Bananas because even with slightly interesting town reads his votes are still less original than Eragon.

It would be really nice if everybody could be active and sensible for the rest of the day so we can get some opinions on people besides Eli, Prims, and me.

[eclipse]

Kay, while we're in the later part of the day, there's still time to do something about it. If you believe Eli is scum, you vote him. If you think he's not, you try to get someone else lynched. While I don't appreciate what he's doing, I think the wagon on him is worse, because it seems several of the people on it are using him as their contribution point.

[Bluedoom]

quick interjection (I'm busy having my brain die on me with calculus), yes I am having a break right now

the day ends in like 17 hours from now, from memory. It's not exactly like the is a lot of the day left anyway. By the time activity picks up again in... 7 hours or so, it will probably be well and truly LD1, and a lynch will need to be decided. That said, there isn't a counterwagon present right now, which basically means unless one picks up very soon, it's almost a foregone conclusion with the Elie lynch. But I digress.

-Call me crazy, but this almost sounds like someone really doesn't want Elie lynched. I need to check something out later with that... *adds to list*

Also my next best question while I'm here: why was I not mentioned for my attacking of Elie in your post Marth?

eh, I realized that. Also guess I forgot about you Manix. However please note that I'd end up berating everyone on the wago(5 out of 7 looks foolish, no?) Because while I disagree with the wagon atm, its not like I dont find him scummy.at all.I just think we have more unhelpful town in our hands.

Also you sound like the lynch eill happen no matter what, like you've been waiting for it.

ehh and your other post has an unvote and stuff about thinking things thru.God I'm confused.

[Bluedoom]

Also point about town reads noted Kay, now I'm off to study

[eclipse]

Some other things are bugging me, so I'm gonna rant here. This probably won't help with scumhunting, but I'll feel better if I get it off my chest.

- Rein and Prims confirmed the games they're in, which makes me feel a little better. Wordkills abounded in ToV.

- Theater seems like an odd early choice. The most memorable role from that game was a third-party one.

- The two games that worry me the most on the list are Pokemon Tactical and Schoolgirl. Both had roles that can really screw the town over, especially if scum picked those games. DT2 worries me, but not as much.

- Sacred Stones had a lot of interesting roles, and one that probably shouldn't be in the mafia's hands (Eir).

- Rather surprised that no one chose something out of Golden Sun. Or Mitnala. Or TotA (go read Van and Arietta's roles). Or that little disaster of a game known as Schoolboy. Or Unicycle (BALCERZAK).

- I will raeg hard if mafia chose Kyogre from Pokemon Legendaries. I will raeg harder if there's multiple lightningrods in this game (Carnival Phantasm and SFMM2 had them).

Unless you guys had REALLY PRESSING CONCERNS about certain games that'll make you feel weird if they go unsaid, I'd suggest focusing more on players than roles.

[Grace]

okay I'm done with my test and will go through the thread after this, but I want to address Clipsey's post above and add my own thoughts on that

- I agree that Theater was an odd choice early. And the first role that comes to my mind is the Mentor role as well. The scum roles were not terribly strong, and same goes for town; so something isn't right there

- The moment that Schoolgirl was picked I was afraid that the Shiki role was picked. I should know how stupidly good that role was, I had it. There was one other role that I thought might have been a possibility, but I'm not saying what it is because it might give whoever picked from Schoolgirl ideas.

- I'm actually quite worried that someone picked from EO, because depending on how the Visil role would work (ie: would the hidden part be immediately available), there are two very strong mafia roles. That said though, there are also town roles that could be useful, so iunno there. I have concerns about that pick.

- Carnival Phantasm actually worries me as well, specifically the Mafia Jack possibility (Janitor/Strongman/LP/Ninja). Although I didn't remember it until I looked through the thread again, so I might be completely off.

Anyway, back soon with a look into stuff

[Prims]

uhhhh did paperblade let people copy items? cuz if scum picked DT2 LYNCH REDIRECTOR then i will be furious

also sad nobody drafted from anonymafia ;_;

[Prims]

also, example of roles from pokemon tactical / pokemon legendaries / schoolgirl?

[Prims]

and then it occured to me nobody could draft from anon because i never posted role PMs

OH WELL

[Grace]

I can help with Schoolgirl: (postgame linked, second spoiler tag)

Dear Manix,

You are Shiki. Your job is to complain about stupidly minor things in the afterlife. You joined this mafia because you needed something ELSE to whine about.

Despite being one of the most annoying things in your universe, you are extremely handy with a sewing kit. During the night, you may reply to your role PM with "Night X - Sewing a set of clothes for <PLAYER>; <NAME>, <ROLE>, <ALIGNMENT>". Any attempts to pry into <PLAYER>'s role PM will yield the results you specify in <NAME>, <ROLE>, and <ALIGNMENT>. No, you don't get to see the finished result.

You came to this school with a Gatito pin. During any night, you may respond to your role PM with "Night X - Imprint <PLAYER1> to kill <PLAYER2>". <PLAYER1> will forfeit her night action and kill <PLAYER2> instead. Due to the fact that you're not the best at mind control, all other mafia roles, including your normal one, must idle.

You are allied with the mafia. You win when all threats to the mafia have been eliminated.

If you are part of a lynch tie, you will automatically win, if you're tied with another mafia member

This is what I mean by stupid. The lynch tie conditional is pointless (because this is a hammer game), but it's a tailor with the capacity to have anyone take their factional kill on any given night. If the role stays alive until there are 1/2 scum left, you basically get to fuck with trackers/watchers/what have you in addition to cops (because of the tailor).

[Grace]

note: this is not my role this game, but it was my role in Schoolgirl. Because I'm sure someone will mention it.

[Prims]

you know it'd be hilarious if scum picked double mass roleblock (pokemon tactical game, sfmm2) only for it to be unusable because they'd have a pgo among their targets

[Shinori]

I wanted to post more and other thoughts and have an in-depth content post tonight but I was pissed off at other stuff and ended up not.

I think Kay is town because she's seeming town to me, and the annoyance at people poking her for not scumhunting and what not seemed genuine.

Elieson looks scummy but I would prefer a different target lynched over at the moment, SB and Aere are my top two preffered lynchs at the moment.

I also don't like Marth's post #427, something about it seems off to me. And it seems out of tone for marth. I don't know.

I also currently have mixed feelings at the moment on Manix. Need to ISO him as well as snike.

Anyway I'm going to sleep and I might not be around for that much tomorrow. I might be around before phase end once or twice but I work a lot tomorrow because I took someone else's shift.

[Grace]

Note: during this entire reread, Elie's actions still made me facepalm quite a bit. I won't be delving into them much because there are different things to address.

First reread (I probably missed stuff in here):

Prims that reasoning doesn't really stand. Alignment restrictions can be imposed on anyone of any alignment.

in reply to this (although please call me out if it wasn't):

Aere: General thought is that Rein would be coming from a scum group which could only pick from scum roles. Don't know if it means anything but it's more interesting than jokevoting. If scum were allowed mixed then it's probably a townslip.

Hold up. Look at Marth's post for a sec. This is well before Rein outed his restriction, and easily showed that Marth's statement was right. My question is: How could you say that before anything had been established? I can think of one reason, but I want to know how you came to your conclusion so early.

Next point: Look at these two posts. Note that this was after Rein had blown his cover (because of drafting a hidden role). Both of these just feel really out of place. I'll address SB later, because he's not looking good after remembering what he's done. Kirsche is a little weird after what he's done, but not to the extent that SB is.

Uhh, I'm not really liking the case against Shinori right now. Why are you guys pressing him so hard on one sentence he said when he was drunk? And Kay saying he 's digging himself deeper- how? His excuse for the so-called "scumslip" was the same from the beginning, he just started to say it in caps lock instead of lower case as he had to repeat it again and again.

I'm still not particularly happy with this, mostly because it was a three vote wagon that wasn't terribly likely to go anywhere. Which it really didn't, but still.

I will concede this point though. I was probably jumping on it a bit quick in the first place, to be fair.

And Elie you do this thing every game whether he's town or scum where you says something really stupid to stop RVS and get people to talk about what you're doing, which is annoying and puts you on people's scumdars even when you're not scum, so you should stop doing it. >_>

Elie: Curious, but why did you jump on me after what I said when BBM said this much earlier than I did (BBM #229 against my #303)? Chalk this up to another reason why I thought your vote on me was unjustified (yes I know you changed it, but the point remains)(wheeee retroactive reasoning)

nope nope nope nope nope this isn't good. Justification for Rein vote was really poor, and then jumps onto an inactive? I'm sorry (but not really), but that is very quite awful.

*insert weak meta point about SSBU here* (or in case you need it: this is what SB does as scum, so :/ )

BBM/Iris interaction was a little weird and I couldn't derive much from it. I swear there is something I'm missing. :/

Other random thoughts (on first reread):

Prims isn't as active as usual, which happens sometimes when he is scum, but aside from that I don't have any problems with him #weakmetapoint

Clipsey still looks alright, but I had a second thought about that for a little bit

Snike posts are still solid, nothing out of the ordinary

Aere posts didn't stand out in particular on this reread

gut check on Marth for reasons I can't quite put my finger on yet, although #427 is tipping me off more than the rest of his posts (as well as the one I quoted first)

---

Second reread (to fix the things I missed):

Aere: I'm honestly not seeing why he is scummy. I will admit he isn't looking the most townie in the world, but he's not a lynch target for me right now. (Side note: upon an ISO on Prims to see a reasoning for the Aere case, I can kind of see it, but kinda not at the same time. :/ )

Snike: Once more, his posts are solid. Nothing sticks out in particular, besides his reasoning for voting Aere. I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

Marth: His vote on Rapier isn't really doing much right now, so here I ask; which of the current possible wagons would you be willing to vote at for the lynch?

---

All this said, I'm going with ##Vote: Seriously Bonkers (Serious Bananas). See the parts where I addressed his posts. My Elie read is still that he is quite scummy, but it's more clouded now. Elie should be easier to read again once D2 comes around. However, that said, if I'm around (see below) and Elie is a more preferred lynch target at that point, I will probably swap over to him.

Extra note: Phase end time is 10am for me, which you might be pushing it. I suspect though that a lynch target will probably be decided before I get back, so ;/

[BBM]

you know it'd be hilarious if scum picked double mass roleblock (pokemon tactical game, sfmm2) only for it to be unusable because they'd have a pgo among their targets

Why would a PGO prevent a mass roleblock? It's not like the mass hooker visits every single person they target.

Anyways, uh, due to unforeseen circumstances I might not be here for phase end (I think I might be able to come for the very end) so throwing out the people I would be okay with switching my vote to to ensure a lynch(since the Iris lynch clearly isn't going to take off): Elieson, SB, Aere, in that order.

[Grace]

Why would a PGO prevent a mass roleblock? It's not like the mass hooker visits every single person they target.

Although it wouldn't stop the masshook in theory, but whoever activated it might die because of it. Depends on the hosts.

Take EO for example: The masshook targeted (and hence visited (although no one would have known that)) everyone (as evident by Rapier being killed because of his conditional revive). That said, it's completely up to the hosts as to how such an action resolves, should it exist. There are probably different iterations on how they work.

Just my thoughts on that.

[Elieson]

Fuck. Seriously? Ok whatever. I picked a Theatre role.

My draft choice was to pick a modkilled role that was allied with town.

Yea, I ironically got to pick my role that I was modkilled as, just a few games ago. Alliance Checker. I know role spec is silly, but does that hint at my alignment!?!

Do the math. I'm fucking scumhunting, and I changed my tone because I saw that no matter how much I tried blatant forceful scumhunting, all people would do was tunnel me with bad reasoning, and I was facing lynch from stupidity.

***Calling for a protection if there is one***