Most useful version of the AS system?

[Shin]

I'm quite fond of the con system, as long as it's done fairly. Otherwise it's speed - (weight - str/x), that way strength can partially negate weapon weight but heavier weapons will always bring penalties.

[Baldrick]

In fact, in Path of Radiance, STR-based AS lead to the magic users being the most balanced relative to each other in the history of the entire series. The gaps between Ilyana, Tormod, Soren, and Calill are far smaller than the gaps between say, Pent, Erk, and Nino.

That has nothing to do with the AS system, it's because the units are actually balanced. In particular, Tormod has availability, staves and move on Calill, none of which Nino has on Pent.

[Tangerine]

Well, it isn't. I thought for a minute that you were saying that any complaints about CON weren't valid because the things that people don't like about it are deliberate, but I have decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that is not what you meant.

Do they? Please elaborate on the advantages that Sophia, Farina, or Marisa bring to the table to make up for their low CON, because despite your protests to the contrary, low CON units are not universally balanced with high CON units.

And I don't think people particularly care what IntSys' intentions were when designing the CON system.

I don't blame the CON system for that: partially because I don't see a lack of balance as being an inherently bad thing.

I don't understand at all how STR-based AS causes imbalance among magic users. In fact, in Path of Radiance, STR-based AS lead to the magic users being the most balanced relative to each other in the history of the entire series. The gaps between Ilyana, Tormod, Soren, and Calill are far smaller than the gaps between say, Pent, Erk, and Nino.

Sophia, Farina and Marisa are not bad because of their con. They are bad for a lot of other reasons. They would not be saved from mediocrity if they had extra con. And that is my point - how can you blame con for them being bad? They are poorly balanced characters, not poor because of their AS loss.

Low con units are balanced very well with high con units. You can't pick a low con unit and tell me they're bad because of their low con. Con never has so big of an effect that it can make a unit bad by itself. Like I said, the primary classes with con issues are Pegasus, Myrmidons and Magic types. There are bad characters in each of these classes, but none are bad because of their con issues, and the classes themselves have very big advantages that make up for their low con. Once you put characters in the classes, it is a character balance issue if they are bad. It's not a fault of the con system if they have awful stats AND lose AS, or if they join late and underleveled. Their con only contributes to the problem, but it is not the defining problem in those cases.

The FE9 magic classes have bad AS issues early in the game that hurt their offense so much that they end up being worse units than they would have been with a flat con system in place, simply because they do not use the str stat. They would be a lot more viable with extra str. This is most notable with Soren, who has everything you need to be an excellent mage, but he falls flat because he loses so much AS from the best tomes available (read: every tome available) that you have to spend a lot of money to make up for his problem, or deal with it. And that is the difference between the str and con systems. Then after a point, str doesn't even matter for most. Str based AS has the two biggest extremes you can achieve with an AS system in FE. On one hand it can make or break a set of units, and for the majority it doesn't even matter. A flat con based system always matters, but won't make a unit significantly worse by itself. It is far more balanced.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Tangerine

[FEAnon]

Giving Farina an extra point of Con helps her offense a bit. With 6 Con at tier one, she loses 2AS from Iron instead of 3AS like Fiora. This then leads to Fiora and Farina practically having similar AS since Fiora's higher speed is mitigated by her losing an extra point of AS when compared to Farina. The only real loss from this Con boost is Farina losing the ability to ferry people across the map but she was never able to ferry promoted Hector in Vanilla anyway.

[Anouleth]

Sophia, Farina and Marisa are not bad because of their con. They are bad for a lot of other reasons. They would not be saved from mediocrity if they had extra con. And that is my point - how can you blame con for them being bad? They are poorly balanced characters, not poor because of their AS loss.

You said that these characters had advantages that made up for their poor CON. I challenge you to name one. What advantage does Sophia have that makes up for the disadvantage of her low CON? Because honestly, I do not believe for one second that every low CON unit has advantages that make up for their low CON: any more than I believe the every low move unit has advantages to make up for it, any more than I believe it for any other given stat or flaw in the game. Nor would I want it to be that way. I don't mind some units being worse than others.

Low con units are balanced very well with high con units. You can't pick a low con unit and tell me they're bad because of their low con. Con never has so big of an effect that it can make a unit bad by itself. Like I said, the primary classes with con issues are Pegasus, Myrmidons and Magic types. There are bad characters in each of these classes, but none are bad because of their con issues, and the classes themselves have very big advantages that make up for their low con.

Okay, tell me: what advantage does Pegasus Knight have over Wyvern Rider that makes up for the low constitution of Pegasus Knight? Even, supposing for a moment that how the classes compare against each other in a vacuum has anything to do with anything.

The FE9 magic classes have bad AS issues early in the game that hurt their offense so much that they end up being worse units than they would have been with a flat con system in place, simply because they do not use the str stat.

Oh god, Soren has such awful AS issues! I mean, his speed is just TERRIBLE for a level 1 unit! I mean, 8 speed is perfectly fine, but because of his 0 strength, he loses an EARTH-SHATTERING 1 AS, rendering him completely awful! This is definitely far, far worse than Sophia or Lute or Nino or Ray losing 1AS (or 2AS for Sophia and Ray) from their starting weapons! I mean, when the GBA units lose 1AS from even their lightest possible weapon, an obstacle they can never get around without using a rare Body Ring, it's okay, because that's not what makes them bad. But when Soren and Ilyana lose 1AS from their starting weapon with a chance to mitigate that, that is the sole reason that they are considered mediocre, and not their low movement, them all being underlevelled, the low mt of magic tomes, the relatively high resistance of enemies, or their low durability in a game that is heavily focused on enemy phase performance, or the amazing performance of Paladins that overshadows most units. Never mind that of all the early game units, Soren is perhaps the least hampered by STR based AS, with Ike, Boyd, and Oscar all taking larger penalties than him. Never mind that the specific case of Soren starting with 0 STR does not actually mean that a STR based system is inherently broken, any more than the specific case of Sophia proves that a CON based system is inherently broken (although it does prove that it's not inherently balanced).

They would be a lot more viable with extra str. This is most notable with Soren, who has everything you need to be an excellent mage, but he falls flat because he loses so much AS from the best tomes available (read: every tome available) that you have to spend a lot of money to make up for his problem, or deal with it.

RFoF, I get the impression you have never played Path of Radiance. Soren's last problem is his AS. You have huge amounts of money to spend on forges, they are basically limitless after a certain point in the game. What is a problem is the general weakness of tomes in FE9. Soren starts with a fairly low 8 attack. This is in fact, lower than the starting attack power of any mage from FE6 onwards, and makes it impossible to do anything better than 3HKO enemies. He's also thrust into a dense chapter that is very very easy for him to die in and gives him few opportunities to kill enemies, and he's underlevelled. That is why Soren is weak earlygame, not because he's "slow" (which he isn't), not because he's weighed down (when there are many GBA mages that are weighed down). He's mediocre, because, and it bears repeating because it's mind-boggling that anyone could miss this when claiming that Tellius mages suck, he has shitty movement and shitty durability and a bad starting position.

You know, even supposing this 1AS deficit was some sort of crippling disadvantage for Soren, it's the equivalent of having to give him an extra two levels of BEXP. Which is peanuts in FE9.

And that is the difference between the str and con systems. Then after a point, str doesn't even matter for most. Str based AS has the two biggest extremes you can achieve with an AS system in FE. On one hand it can make or break a set of units, and for the majority it doesn't even matter. A flat con based system always matters, but won't make a unit significantly worse by itself. It is far more balanced.

You must be off your rocker if you think that Soren is "broken" by the loss of a measly 1AS in earlygame, and not by the loss of 1 MOVE forever. Are you actually insane? Or is this just a last-ditch effort to defend your original point? It's not like there aren't genuine, non-crazy complaints to make about STR-based AS, like how in earlygame it makes Strength ridiculously valuable and places the player further at the mercy of the levelup RNG. But that's kind of dependent on what kind of stats units start out with.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Anouleth

[Tangerine]

You said that these characters had advantages that made up for their poor CON. I challenge you to name one. What advantage does Sophia have that makes up for the disadvantage of her low CON? Because honestly, I do not believe for one second that every low CON unit has advantages that make up for their low CON: any more than I believe the every low move unit has advantages to make up for it, any more than I believe it for any other given stat or flaw in the game. Nor would I want it to be that way. I don't mind some units being worse than others.

Okay, tell me: what advantage does Pegasus Knight have over Wyvern Rider that makes up for the low constitution of Pegasus Knight? Even, supposing for a moment that how the classes compare against each other in a vacuum has anything to do with anything.

Oh god, Soren has such awful AS issues! I mean, his speed is just TERRIBLE for a level 1 unit! I mean, 8 speed is perfectly fine, but because of his 0 strength, he loses an EARTH-SHATTERING 1 AS, rendering him completely awful! This is definitely far, far worse than Sophia or Lute or Nino or Ray losing 1AS (or 2AS for Sophia and Ray) from their starting weapons! I mean, when the GBA units lose 1AS from even their lightest possible weapon, an obstacle they can never get around without using a rare Body Ring, it's okay, because that's not what makes them bad. But when Soren and Ilyana lose 1AS from their starting weapon with a chance to mitigate that, that is the sole reason that they are considered mediocre, and not their low movement, them all being underlevelled, the low mt of magic tomes, the relatively high resistance of enemies, or their low durability in a game that is heavily focused on enemy phase performance, or the amazing performance of Paladins that overshadows most units. Never mind that of all the early game units, Soren is perhaps the least hampered by STR based AS, with Ike, Boyd, and Oscar all taking larger penalties than him. Never mind that the specific case of Soren starting with 0 STR does not actually mean that a STR based system is inherently broken, any more than the specific case of Sophia proves that a CON based system is inherently broken (although it does prove that it's not inherently balanced).

RFoF, I get the impression you have never played Path of Radiance. Soren's last problem is his AS. You have huge amounts of money to spend on forges, they are basically limitless after a certain point in the game. What is a problem is the general weakness of tomes in FE9. Soren starts with a fairly low 8 attack. This is in fact, lower than the starting attack power of any mage from FE6 onwards, and makes it impossible to do anything better than 3HKO enemies. He's also thrust into a dense chapter that is very very easy for him to die in and gives him few opportunities to kill enemies, and he's underlevelled. That is why Soren is weak earlygame, not because he's "slow" (which he isn't), not because he's weighed down (when there are many GBA mages that are weighed down). He's mediocre, because, and it bears repeating because it's mind-boggling that anyone could miss this when claiming that Tellius mages suck, he has shitty movement and shitty durability and a bad starting position.

You know, even supposing this 1AS deficit was some sort of crippling disadvantage for Soren, it's the equivalent of having to give him an extra two levels of BEXP. Which is peanuts in FE9.

You must be off your rocker if you think that Soren is "broken" by the loss of a measly 1AS in earlygame, and not by the loss of 1 MOVE forever. Are you actually insane? Or is this just a last-ditch effort to defend your original point? It's not like there aren't genuine, non-crazy complaints to make about STR-based AS, like how in earlygame it makes Strength ridiculously valuable and places the player further at the mercy of the levelup RNG. But that's kind of dependent on what kind of stats units start out with.

The hell is your problem? Calm down or you're going to end up getting warned. You aren't even talking to Fox. Your examples are ridiculous, the low con units you're talking about aren't even bad because of their low con. The question isn't what do they have to make up for their con, it's what do they have to make up for everything else. And they don't have anything, because they are all around bad - and not because of their con.

I wasn't talking about specific units, that doesn't matter. Their classes have features that make up for their con compared to other classes in the game, units that are poorly balanced are irrelevant.

Wind sucks. He loses 3 AS from Thunder, which is the only basic tome worth using once you actually have it, and that is the tome I was basing Soren's AS loss on. You can't do anything about his offense until you can get rid of Wind, so that is irrelevant. Ilyana loses 2 AS from thunder, which makes her average speed much worse than it should be, but she is still not the ideal example. Soren was my example because he has his class' base str at his base level.

Pegasus Knights are given several advantages over Wyverns in practice. Namely the fact that they join earlier. Class for class they don't have much of an advantage against them, but they still have several advantages over every other class in the game. That doesn't change anything about what I said.

You are right about one thing - I haven't played the NA version of PoR in a very long time, but I am almost finished replaying it in Maniac Mode. I don't know what the exact differences are, but you can only make one forge per chapter, that isn't limitless, and I know it's the same in the NA version. And gold isn't limitless either in my most recent experience with the game. Regardless, forges are pointless to discuss in my opinion. It is a different system that has nothing to do with str = as.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Tangerine

[Florete]

For the record (I'm RFoF), I prefer the Str system, but in the end it's more that I don't really like the CON system. Not really sure how to explain why.

Regardless, forges are pointless to discuss in my opinion. It is a different system that has nothing to do with str = as.

Since weapon weight can be lowered for forges, I think it actually is pretty relevant. What's really a problem is that only the base tomes can be forged (in PoR and RD) and you often want to use El or higher to raise weapon levels, especially in Soren's case since his Adept can occasionally make weapon leveling actually slower.

[Tangerine]

I don't think it is relevant when what is being discussed is the AS systems themselves. It is not a part of the str = as system.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Tangerine

[Anouleth]

The hell is your problem? Calm down or you're going to end up getting warned. You aren't even talking to Fox.

Wow, sorry. I got your avatars mixed up.

Your examples are ridiculous, the low con units you're talking about aren't even bad because of their low con.

And Soren, and Ilyana, and Tormod are not bad because of their low strength. You say it's ridiculous to say that Sophia is bad because of her low CON, well, you have read what I think of your suggestion that Soren is bad because of his low strength.

Moreover, you have missed my point. You claimed initially that "Low con units have advantages that make up for their low con, and that is ignored by people who whine about some class' low con scores." And that isn't true: low CON units sometimes have nothing at all to make up for their low CON. Some people complain even about units that have advantages to make up for CON, that's true, and I've also talked about this: for whatever reason, people perceive units taking weight penalties as being unfair or unfun even if the unit is still good. It dissuades them from using stronger weapons, which is also unfun. And this is probably why IntSys did away with the system.

The question isn't what do they have to make up for their con, it's what do they have to make up for everything else. And they don't have anything, because they are all around bad - and not because of their con.

So, just like Tellius Mages?

I wasn't talking about specific units, that doesn't matter. Their classes have features that make up for their con compared to other classes in the game, units that are poorly balanced are irrelevant.

Of course they are relevant. The reason we would want classes to be balanced against each other is so that characters would be balanced against each other. It does noone any good if, in a vacuum, Shamans are perfectly balanced against female Mages, but the only Shaman in the game joins late and extremely underlevelled while the only female Mage joins early and overlevelled. For example, in theory, most of the classes in FE4 are balanced against each other, since the mounted units have generally low caps, bad weapon ranks and no skills to make up for their high movement. In practice, the game is horrendously unbalanced.

Wind sucks.

Yeah, it does. Because it has 2MT, not because it's too heavy. Hence my point about Mages in FE9 being bad, not because they take AS penalties, but because they have weak weapons (and the other things).

He loses 3 AS from Thunder, which is the only basic tome worth using once you actually have it,

If Soren's Attack Speed is apparently so bad, then why would he forgo double attacking just for a measly 2 attack?

2AS for 2MT is a tradeoff, just like in GBA FE. You cannot criticise FE9 for offering a tradeoff between AS and MT when GBAFE does the exact same thing: and usually under far more punishing terms, with no option to make a forge.

You can't do anything about his offense until you can get rid of Wind, so that is irrelevant. Ilyana loses 2 AS from thunder, which makes her average speed much worse than it should be, but she is still not the ideal example.

And, tell me, how did you decide that Ilyana "should" have more speed? It seems to me to be a fairly deliberate choice to give her 1 strength instead of 2 or 3.

Pegasus Knights are given several advantages over Wyverns in practice. Namely the fact that they join earlier.

How is that a quality of the class?

You are right about one thing - I haven't played the NA version of PoR in a very long time, but I am almost finished replaying it in Maniac Mode. I don't know what the exact differences are, but you can only make one forge per chapter, that isn't limitless, and I know it's the same in the NA version. And gold isn't limitless either in my most recent experience with the game.

It's not limitless, but the last time I played the game, in NA Hard Mode, I often forgot to make forges and still never ran out or had any problems at all.

[Icon of Sin]

especially in Soren's case since his Adept can occasionally make weapon leveling actually slower.

I'm pretty sure that's only in FE 10 and not FE 9 though. In FE 10 he's at least close to his caps from his starting ranks.

As for the AS thing, I'm not very difficult on it. This said, FE 12 took weight and constitution away and I didn't mind that one bit.

[Tangerine]

Wow, sorry. I got your avatars mixed up.

That doesn't really explain your ridiculous aggression, but okay, no worries.

And Soren, and Ilyana, and Tormod are not bad because of their low strength. You say it's ridiculous to say that Sophia is bad because of her low CON, well, you have read what I think of your suggestion that Soren is bad because of his low strength.

Their low strength is a much bigger factor in their offense issues than units under the con system. But again, I am not interested in comparing units, because how good they are is not important information. Soren was chosen for his base str being the same as his class' base str. He is the most direct comparison statistically in PoR.

Moreover, you have missed my point. You claimed initially that "Low con units have advantages that make up for their low con, and that is ignored by people who whine about some class' low con scores." And that isn't true: low CON units sometimes have nothing at all to make up for their low CON. Some people complain even about units that have advantages to make up for CON, that's true, and I've also talked about this: for whatever reason, people perceive units taking weight penalties as being unfair or unfun even if the unit is still good. It dissuades them from using stronger weapons, which is also unfun. And this is probably why IntSys did away with the system.

Sophia's class' benefits make up for its low con. Sophia as a unit is unable to take advantage of her class' advantages because she is so weak, and so her con is just another issue with her as a character. Shaman is a good class despite its low con score, Sophia is a bad unit. Shaman's specialized tomes offer advantages other classes have no access to, as well as 1-2 range offense. In practice, Shamans are always underachievers, however, because they are not given regular access to their unique tomes, and the characters in the class are often underwhelming. But this is not due to the con system, they're underwhelming because they were balanced poorly.

So, just like Tellius Mages?

Str has a much bigger effect on their offense than con does on any GBA mage's. If you kept tome stats the same and gave an FE9 mage Erk's 5 base con (which is actually 1 below mage's real base, but we'll give him Erk's for the heck of it), he would not have the offense problems in PoR. He would be able to wield Elthunder with only 1 AS loss, like Erk wields Thunder with 1 AS loss, and perform much better. It is not even arguable that he would be a better unit without even touching tome stats. Even promoted Soren still loses 3 AS from Elthunder under normal circumstances, and that is really the tome that mages would prefer to be using. Even if you really want to use forging as an advantage, con makes that system better for mages too. Even though they have the most expensive weapons, now they can upgrade without having to worry so much about weight drops and ultimately have their weapon come out less expensive.

You can't give a GBA mage more con and make them more comparable to other units in the game by any significant margin. You CAN give an FE9 mage con and make them more comparable to other units in the game. This would really be the same as increasing mage's base str to 5 or something, but that's not how they presented the classes to us, so it's easier to talk about what IS did in the actual games than make up our own. They developed the systems and built the classes around them, so we take that at face value.

Of course they are relevant. The reason we would want classes to be balanced against each other is so that characters would be balanced against each other. It does noone any good if, in a vacuum, Shamans are perfectly balanced against female Mages, but the only Shaman in the game joins late and extremely underlevelled while the only female Mage joins early and overlevelled. For example, in theory, most of the classes in FE4 are balanced against each other, since the mounted units have generally low caps, bad weapon ranks and no skills to make up for their high movement. In practice, the game is horrendously unbalanced.

But that is not relevant to the AS systems. Character balance is separate from it.

Yeah, it does. Because it has 2MT, not because it's too heavy. Hence my point about Mages in FE9 being bad, not because they take AS penalties, but because they have weak weapons (and the other things).

If Soren's Attack Speed is apparently so bad, then why would he forgo double attacking just for a measly 2 attack?

Because he wants wexp for the Thunder element, because Elthunder is the best overall tome in the game and he can eventually consistently double with it.

Wind is bad because he loses AS from it and it has bad might. Thunder is good because it has OK mt and crit. At least on paper, the str system prevents them from using any tomes well until their speed catches up or you use an energy drop on them. Thunder doesn't take any longer to kill enemies with than Wind, but it's still not very good, because they have to be fed kills due to their poor offense to begin with. Again, I'm not really sure how it is in the NA version anymore, and I am using the hardest version of the game as reference because it is all I can really remember. It's part of the reason I chose not to do direct character comparisons and would prefer to keep it a class discussion. That is the most basic way to discuss the AS systems, because there are no outside factors like how good a character is or when they join.

2AS for 2MT is a tradeoff, just like in GBA FE. You cannot criticise FE9 for offering a tradeoff between AS and MT when GBAFE does the exact same thing: and usually under far more punishing terms, with no option to make a forge.

That's not the same as the GBA FEs at all. In those you have a choice of whether or not to lose AS for a mt boost because almost every class has a weapon they can use without losing AS. The ones who don't have biiig advantages over the other classes. With the str = AS system, mages have no choice because their base str is 0 as a class so they're losing AS no matter what they do. Female magic classes are pretty stupidly bad in the GBA FEs for whatever reason, though.

And, tell me, how did you decide that Ilyana "should" have more speed? It seems to me to be a fairly deliberate choice to give her 1 strength instead of 2 or 3.

Uh, what? I said she wasn't an ideal choice because her str is not the same as her class base, and her real issue is her poor AS + her speed. She isn't fast like Soren, so her AS loss isn't as much the fault of the str = as system as it is her as a character.

How is that a quality of the class?

"In practice". Read what I said after.

It's not limitless, but the last time I played the game, in NA Hard Mode, I often forgot to make forges and still never ran out or had any problems at all.

I have made a forge every chapter in my most recent playthrough and sold several expensive items, including the Beorc and Laguz guards despite their usefulness, and I am very low on money in chapter 20. The 17-1 to 17-4 marathon chapter also robbed me of most of the uses of the forges I made previously. I could have more money if I chose to sell all of my stat up items, but I kept a lot of them to use. This is likely because there are a lot more enemies in the mode I am playing, as well as the fact that they are significantly more durable, but I don't have anything else to compare to. Tomes are exceedingly expensive compared to other weapons you can forge.

To make it clear, the most relevant stats for me are class' base str and their base con, and then the other attributes of their class that are relevant to the balancing of the characters who will be placed in them. When discussing the AS systems, that is.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Tangerine

[Florete]

At least on paper, the str system prevents them from using any tomes well until their speed catches up or you use an energy drop on them.

This isn't so much the system itself but how PoR uses it. In RD, magic units rarely lose AS from tomes. It only really happens with long-range tomes or if, like, Micaiah equips Valaura without having been leveled well. And this is why context is key; the system is balanced or not based on how it works with the rest of the game.

On a side note, this is another reason RD is so much more polished than PoR.

[Tangerine]

This isn't so much the system itself but how PoR uses it. In RD, magic units rarely lose AS from tomes. It only really happens with long-range tomes or if, like, Micaiah equips Valaura without having been leveled well. And this is why context is key; the system is balanced or not based on how it works with the rest of the game.

On a side note, this is another reason RD is so much more polished than PoR.

Str = AS is also near worthless in RD, so it has only moved towards one of the extremes I pointed out.

Speaking class wise is the only important factor to me, and it is better balanced in RD; mages are split into different elements and their stats are based more fairly on the tomes they are able to use. The system is still more faulty than con, it can't have extreme issues like the ones presented.

[Anouleth]

That doesn't really explain your ridiculous aggression, but okay, no worries.

Their low strength is a much bigger factor in their offense issues than units under the con system.

Well, the burden of proof is on you to explain why losing 1 or 2AS is so much more catastrophically worse in Tellius than it is in GBAFE.

But again, I am not interested in comparing units, because how good they are is not important information.

No, it is important information. We want a good AS system so that units will be balanced relative to each other. Not so that "classes" will be balanced relative to each other. Fiona might be in a balanced class. Sophia might be in a balanced class (she isn't, but for the sake of argument). That doesn't make up for their flaws.

Soren was chosen for his base str being the same as his class' base str.

And what does that have to do with anything?

Sophia's class' benefits make up for its low con. Sophia as a unit is unable to take advantage of her class' advantages because she is so weak, and so her con is just another issue with her as a character. Shaman is a good class despite its low con score, Sophia is a bad unit.

No, it isn't. Shaman F actually has awful base stats on par with Soldier (because apparently they're relevant, despite being used for nothing other than calculating enemy stats). So, even when you compare the classes in a "vacuum" and completely disregard what actually happens in the game, Shaman is still a poorly balanced class.

Shaman's specialized tomes offer advantages other classes have no access to, as well as 1-2 range offense. In practice, Shamans are always underachievers, however, because they are not given regular access to their unique tomes, and the characters in the class are often underwhelming. But this is not due to the con system, they're underwhelming because they were balanced poorly.

And in FE9, Sage's specialized tomes offer advantages other classes have no access to as well, and if mages are bad, it's not because of the strength system which only imposes small penalties that can be worked around. Why is this suddenly horrible balance when FE9 does it?

Str has a much bigger effect on their offense than con does on any GBA mage's. If you kept tome stats the same and gave an FE9 mage Erk's 5 base con (which is actually 1 below mage's real base, but we'll give him Erk's for the heck of it), he would not have the offense problems in PoR.

Or you could give him a forge with the exact same effects.

He would be able to wield Elthunder with only 1 AS loss, like Erk wields Thunder with 1 AS loss, and perform much better.

Well, no shit, sherlock. Of course Soren would be better if he took smaller AS penalties. He would also be better if the weight system was removed entirely, or if STR or CON based weight mitigation was removed. Soren would be better under every system, because the current system uses his lowest stat, just as Lute and Nino would be better under every conceivable system because their system uses their lowest stat: but that doesn't mean the system is bad. It just means they have a low stat in that area.

It is not even arguable that he would be a better unit without even touching tome stats. Even promoted Soren still loses 3 AS from Elthunder under normal circumstances, and that is really the tome that mages would prefer to be using.

So basically, you think that every mage in the game should have enough CON to use whatever weapon they want? That's ridiculous and in fact, exactly what you were arguing against earlier. Erk might "prefer to be using" Elfire, but tough shit, he has to take a penalty, and that's a good thing because it forces you to make a tradeoff. But apparently, when Soren has the same tradeoff between AS and MT, that's just terrible and therefore Soren has to have a more generous AS system because we can't have him being slowed down by anything. Except that in fact, it's actually a kinder tradeoff than Erk gets because while Erk trades 4AS for 2MT, Soren trades 3AS for 3MT.

Even if you really want to use forging as an advantage, con makes that system better for mages too. Even though they have the most expensive weapons, now they can upgrade without having to worry so much about weight drops and ultimately have their weapon come out less expensive.

CON makes the forging system better, because it reduces the need to forge weapons? I mean, if that's the case, then shouldn't removing weight entirely be even better, because then nobody will have to worry about weight drops and all your weapons will be cheaper?

You can't give a GBA mage more con and make them more comparable to other units in the game by any significant margin. You CAN give an FE9 mage con and make them more comparable to other units in the game.

No, you can't. Again, I think you are severely, extremely wrong if you think that Soren's problems all stem from his low strength. I invite you to look at the FE9 Tier List and try to find one place where people seriously talk about giving Soren a Speedwing. Because it simply doesn't exist. Soren is, if anything, the least hampered by speed concerns of the three mages in PoR because his speed base is so much better than his peers and his magic is so high that he can often afford to use weaker, lighter tomes. This is especially true when comparing him to Ilyana after promotion: in a comparison against Ilyana, Soren can either choose to wield Thunder and be faster than her with the same damage, or choose to wield Elthunder and hit harder than her with the same AS. That's not to say that strength isn't a concern at all, because it makes him easily the slowest siege tome user, but he also hits hardest with siege tomes and is naturally the most accurate with them.

This would really be the same as increasing mage's base str to 5 or something, but that's not how they presented the classes to us, so it's easier to talk about what IS did in the actual games than make up our own. They developed the systems and built the classes around them, so we take that at face value.

Man, if only there was a STR-based AS system game where all the magic users start with sizeable strength bases! Too bad no such game exists, oh well.

But that is not relevant to the AS systems. Character balance is separate from it.

The purpose of the AS systems is to support character balance.

Because he wants wexp for the Thunder element, because Elthunder is the best overall tome in the game and he can eventually consistently double with it.

Soren is not going to need to wield Elthunder prepromotion: nor do I get your obsession with Elthunder tomes. You don't do this for GBA titles, do you? Demand that everyone use Thunder, and then complain that Nino sucks because she takes a speed penalty from it?

Wind is bad because he loses AS from it and it has bad might. Thunder is good because it has OK mt and crit.

Or, perhaps he can carry around both tomes, and upon encountering an enemy that he can double with Wind but not with Thunder, he can proceed to wield Wind, and upon encountering an enemy that he can double with both or neither, he can then switch to Thunder, and in that way maximise his damage output.

At least on paper, the str system prevents them from using any tomes well until their speed catches up or you use an energy drop on them.

Or until you make them a forge, or give them some BEXP, or level them up so they aren't level 0, or use a Speedwing (why you would use an Energy Drop instead of a speedwing is beyond me), except that it's generally agreed that Soren doesn't need a Speedwing, or in fact, any of these things except the BEXP and the forge, which everyone gets.

Thunder doesn't take any longer to kill enemies with than Wind, but it's still not very good, because they have to be fed kills due to their poor offense to begin with. Again, I'm not really sure how it is in the NA version anymore, and I am using the hardest version of the game as reference because it is all I can really remember. It's part of the reason I chose not to do direct character comparisons and would prefer to keep it a class discussion. That is the most basic way to discuss the AS systems, because there are no outside factors like how good a character is or when they join.

Well, as a class Mage is very weak in FE9 because it has a 1 magic base. This puts it at a 4HKO against even a 20HP/0RES unit. I think that addressing this low base magic is a far more serious concern than addressing the 0STR base, especially since Mage is quite a bit faster than most other classes, with 2AS (in comparison, Soldier has 1AS and Fighter has -2AS with Iron weapons).

That's not the same as the GBA FEs at all. In those you have a choice of whether or not to lose AS for a mt boost because almost every class has a weapon they can use without losing AS.

Except when they don't, and also even in FE9 you often have a choice to tradeoff AT for MT.

The ones who don't have biiig advantages over the other classes.

Oh yes, all those advantages that Shaman F has. With it's 1SPD base. What a biiig advantage? Well, hopefully Nosferatu will make up for the class being effectively slower than even 0AS Armour knights.

With the str = AS system, mages have no choice because their base str is 0 as a class so they're losing AS no matter what they do. Female magic classes are pretty stupidly bad in the GBA FEs for whatever reason, though.

So the CON system is balanced, except when it's not, and the STR system is unbalanced if you assume that all units have 0 personal bases in everything when in actual fact there are only three such units in the entire game and two of them are staff users and assume that all magic using classes would have 0 class base in strength, when in fact, this didn't happen at all in Radiant Dawn.

Uh, what? I said she wasn't an ideal choice because her str is not the same as her class base, and her real issue is her poor AS + her speed. She isn't fast like Soren, so her AS loss isn't as much the fault of the str = as system as it is her as a character.

So apparently a character having bad strength is the fault of the STR based AS system. It would simply be impossible to program a Fire Emblem where units had strength bases different to their class bases.

I have made a forge every chapter in my most recent playthrough and sold several expensive items, including the Beorc and Laguz guards despite their usefulness, and I am very low on money in chapter 20.

How? At the end of Chapter 19, you get about 70,000 gold, maybe more (I don't recall exactly). Maybe this doesn't happen in Maniac Mode, but in the NA version, you will not have money problems after Chapter 19.

The 17-1 to 17-4 marathon chapter also robbed me of most of the uses of the forges I made previously. I could have more money if I chose to sell all of my stat up items, but I kept a lot of them to use. This is likely because there are a lot more enemies in the mode I am playing, as well as the fact that they are significantly more durable, but I don't have anything else to compare to. Tomes are exceedingly expensive compared to other weapons you can forge.

They... aren't. A thunder forge costs twice as much as a Steel Sword forge. That's more expensive, but not prohibitively so.

And you're playing on Maniac Mode. I don't really expect the game to be balanced or fair on Maniac Mode. Actually I don't expect it on any mode, but I don't think anyone should go into Maniac Mode thinking they can use whatever characters they want to, or thinking they can "get away" with using average characters like Mages.

To make it clear, the most relevant stats for me are class' base str and their base con,

But not their bases in any other stats? Because it's 100% terrible when Tellius Mages take an attack speed penalty and have other advantages to make up for it, but it's not terrible at all when GBA magic users take an attack speed penalty because they have other advantages to make up for it [citation needed].

and then the other attributes of their class that are relevant to the balancing of the characters who will be placed in them. When discussing the AS systems, that is.

I don't understand your obsession with these base stats. Or why you think it's "bad" when Tellius Mages are hampered by attack speed penalties, but it's fine when GBA magic users are hampered by attack speed penalties. Or why you like the idea of Tellius Mages being able to use any buyable tome without any attack speed penalties, but you hate the idea of Tellius physical units being able to using any buyable weapon without any attack speed penalties.

[Tangerine]

Well the only thing that is clear to me is that we don't agree. I wouldn't bother responding to half of that post even if I were to reply, because most of it is not worth responding to, and I'd only be attempting to repeat myself in a way that will get through. I'm sure you feel the same way; you've even started to repeat things that I said myself as if I didn't already acknowledge it. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Tangerine

[dondon151]

don't worry, anouleth likes to be a contrarian

[Junkhead]

I prefer Str-based AS as it gives it a realistic shot, and it helps pretty much any unit be able to carry weapons without AS loss. The Con-based system hurt character's AS pretty much forever.

[Hawk King]

I like the CON based system more than the STR based system, but the problem I have with the CON system (and I think Anouleth would agree) is the differences between characters of the SAME class (or type). Despite Matthew having a large availability lead, I find myself dropping him in every playthrough in favor of Legault. Why? Because no matter how blessed Matthew might end up, Legault will always have 2 more CON than Matthew Even if they both have identical stats Legault will always have an advantage. Or lets look at Lyn and Guy compared to Eliwood, Raven or Karel. Lute or Natasha compared to Artur, Moulder, or Saleh. Lowen and Kyle having 1 more CON than the other cavs is balance. Nino, Natasha, and Lute having 4 or more fewer CON than their peers is a flat out DISADVANTAGE.

[arvilino]

^Yeah cases like Joshua and Marisa where even if hypothetically they joined at the same time and levelled up at the same rate, lower con means Marisa can never really be more than faster than Joshua, whereas depending on weapon Joshua can be faster than Marisa and deal more damage(anything with 8 or more weight or 6 before promotion) or just as fast and deal more damage(Iron Sword).

Higher con usually allows a character to overall deal out more damage than an lower con equivalent of the same class(especially considering many low con units have lower strength) regardless of weapon.

Edited November 19, 2012 by arvilino

[Original Alear]

"Fairness", is of course, entirely subjective, and it's rather strange to point out differences in CON when there are so many other ways that units can be better or worse than each other, but for whatever reason people seem to dislike it, which I guess is why IntSys changed it.

I just want doubling to get nerfed! Ya, it'll be fun when it takes twice as long to kill something because you have to have twice as many rounds against it!

Class-wise this is a show of poor balance itself, and con is only one factor in it. Pegs aren't worse than Wyverns because of the con system, they're worse than Wyverns because IS made them statistically inferior and balanced them in ways that don't matter for the player in practice. As far as the player cares, Wyverns only have one weakness when they are supposed to have two. They don't really have two because they rarely give the enemy the ability to exploit the Wyvern's second weakness.

I disagree. Res is not frequently an important niche, but a melee unit with res often fills an important niche. Decent staff res on a flier is useful indeed - not because it's frequently useful, but status staves are very annoying.

On the other hand, in actual gameplay, the advantages given to the Pegasus-classed characters often see them rated above Wyverns. Vanessa compares favorably to Cormag, and Florina/Fiora compare very favorably to Heath. FE6 is different simply because Miledy is so statistically superior to Thany and Tate as a combat unit that they have no hope of comparing to her even with the usual advantage Pegs receive. But that's a character balance issue.

If I could class change, I'd make Heath a peg knight and Florina or Fiora a wyvern knight - even if I couldn't change back. I might still use Heath, too, don't go saying I'm nerfing him to hell. He might still be fast enough with an iron lance to do some good. Still, I agree with you. Pegs are a great class. That's why I said so.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Mouse

[dondon151]

I disagree. Res is not frequently an important niche, but a melee unit with res often fills an important niche. Decent staff res on a flier is useful indeed - not because it's frequently useful, but status staves are very annoying.

the point is that wyvern riders typically have as much magical durability as pegasus knights because the former has much higher HP. the difference in base con relative to the WT of lances also partially cancels out PK's higher spd base.

so really, their only benefit is higher staff res. sure it fills a niche, but WKs are so much better for all-purpose use.

[Samias]

My problem with the CON=AS system is that it typically sandbags female characters, negating the advantage they should have over male characters (speed). Some characters have enough pros to outweigh the cons, such as the FE7 peg sisters having pretty stellar growths all around plus flying utility and high rescue scores, but the average female unit is only packing 4-6 con, whereas the males are usually somewhere in the 8-12 range. It just exaggerates how much more variety in weapons the males can use without taking a penalty, or a negligible penalty, whereas females simply cannot pick up a steel weapon without tanking their AS and avoid. Isadora, for whatever dumb reason, has 6 CON when her class base should be 9, which just goes to show IS is intentionally giving females ridiculously bad CON scores to try and push killing edges as the one viable weapon for them in the GBA era. I think the con system would be better if the males weren't usually doubling their female counterparts in a stat that you can't change, barring the rare body ring. With that in mind, I enjoyed the str = AS system more, even though it became a complete non-factor midway through the game. If it was some combination of str + con that didn't screw with the rescue formula, I'd probably be all for that.

[KitheOfEvrark]

Personally, I prefer not having weapon weight at all. The FE9/10 formula, as many others have said, is pretty much irrelevent after a short time. I think the GBA formula is nice in theory, but hasn't been as balanced in practice.

[Original Alear]

the point is that wyvern riders typically have as much magical durability as pegasus knights because the former has much higher HP. the difference in base con relative to the WT of lances also partially cancels out PK's higher spd base.

so really, their only benefit is higher staff res. sure it fills a niche, but WKs are so much better for all-purpose use.

Yes, and sorry if it sounded like I was saying something else. I was taking issue with this section of the bolded statement particularly.

and balanced them in ways that don't matter for the player in practice.

I was trying to counter the weight which was placed on this statement. I don't know about all players, but I know that peg res helps me in practice.

In terms of changes that would be made, I'm with anou - I don't think balance is too important. My favorite FEs are 5 and 10 (I don't even know how to talk about balance in FE5). But I still like to talk about it, and read what other people say.

I dunno, if FE was an online multiplayer TBS I might care about balance more, but maybe I should just play some chess. If white VS black is imbalanced, it's still way above my pay grade.

Edited November 21, 2012 by Mouse

[Esaka]

Give build a growth rate, along with move! That was nothing remains stagnant on the character.

Oh if only there was an FE like that.

But stagnant weight is stupid, no weight is stupid, strength and weight is stupid, I really think having a build growth is the best solution.