List every character who...

[Loki Laufeyson]

My thoughts on Soren changed a lot when I got stuck with him as my only GM unit in a draft for a while. You guys would be surprised at the things he can pull off with BEXP (granted its in NM). I find PoR Soren only "good" for sieging. While RD's can be a combat unit (OK OK with favoritism) AND a sieger.

The things he can do with a certain skill set up is pretty mindboggling....

[Anouleth]

Hes...the only one in PoR.

That's the joke. The TC said that Rhys is the best Bishop. But he's also the worst Bishop!

To me, Soren is just as useful if not more so in RD. (because he can use Celerity.)

Ah, but he can use the Boots in Path of Radiance. Didn't think of that, did ya?

My thoughts on Soren changed a lot when I got stuck with him as my only GM unit in a draft for a while. You guys would be surprised at the things he can pull off with BEXP (granted its in NM). I find PoR Soren only "good" for sieging. While RD's can be a combat unit (OK OK with favoritism) AND a sieger.

Maybe you need to try only using Soren and giving him lots of BEXP in Path of Radiance, instead of being so close minded!

Edited November 14, 2012 by Anouleth

[PKL]

@Anouleth- Soren does not have the durability in PoR to be a combat unit. :P

[Florete]

Look at his base and growth in HP and Def in RD and decide if he really has it there.

[-Cynthia-]

IMO units that are close to the same usefulness in both games:

Rhys- Heals, sucks at combat in both games. Healing isn't that great in PoR because of high durability and not that great in RD because the healing items are great. I guess he gets 2RKOd in PoR instead of ORKOd like RD, but RD is harder and he has more relevant chip damage.

Zihark- A pretty good but not great unit in both games. Durability is much better in PoR, but SMs are a better class in RD (having higher speed is more relevant, more 1-2 range swords etc.)

Geoffrey- Good for the last few chapters in PoR, good for the CRK chapters in RD, either not available or not useful everywhere else.

[PKL]

Look at his base and growth in HP and Def in RD and decide if he really has it there.

Except he's closer to promo, can get a Robe by his second map and BEXP capping exists. All advantages that PoR soren does not have.

Edited November 15, 2012 by HORSEBIRD

[Loki Laufeyson]

Ah, but he can use the Boots in Path of Radiance. Didn't think of that, did ya?

I did. But two chapters into part 3, Soren can use Celerity versus many many chapters before he gets the Boots. (i nearly always give him the Boots in PoR. But in RD, someone else can have them if i want to use Soren.)

BEXP capping exists.

Ehhh only if he gets transfers. Untransfered Soren isnt as likely to be BEXP abused as Tranfered Soren is.

[PKL]

Ehhh only if he gets transfers. Untransfered Soren isnt as likely to be BEXP abused as Tranfered Soren is.

How is it unlikely? He rams mag skl res and his next highest growths are HP spd Lck

[Silith]

Boyd has amazing str and spd growths in PoR making him a very reliable killer. In RD his speed lacks a bit too much. He's pretty good in both games but his PoR self is still better.

Soren is too much of a pain to use in both games imo. Nice chip that gets replaced when better mages show up. (Or in RD untill his deployment slot can be used better with hawk laguz)

[Dr. Silent]

RD Boyd has a poor base Speed and a really average Speed growth. Because it takes at least ten level ups for Boyd to cap anything more than HP, BExp won't help his Speed out a whole lot until he's almost at third tier. Boyd is a useful fill-in unit for the Greil Merc chapters in Part 3 and Part 4, but he ain't gonna turn out as good as Chuck Nolan.

Soren has always swayed opinions. In PoR, he was great but outclassed by Calill simply because she could wield the heavy tomes without any AS penalties. In RD he's the best Archsage in the game, but due to mediocre stat caps (notably Speed) it isn't such a great class.

[Anouleth]

I did. But two chapters into part 3, Soren can use Celerity versus many many chapters before he gets the Boots. (i nearly always give him the Boots in PoR. But in RD, someone else can have them if i want to use Soren.)

Why does that matter? Soren in RD can use Celerity for 12 chapters, but in Path of Radiance, he can use the Boots for 13 chapters. Also, the Boots in Radiant Dawn don't show up until very late. So no, someone else can't have them, at least, not until Part 4.

Ehhh only if he gets transfers. Untransfered Soren isnt as likely to be BEXP abused as Tranfered Soren is.

You can BEXP abuse better in Path of Radiance more easily, anyway. It's really not hard to get him to cap all his stats in either game, and since his caps are relatively better in Path of Radiance, he must be better in that game.

[Vicious Sal]

RD Boyd has a poor base Speed and a really average Speed growth. Because it takes at least ten level ups for Boyd to cap anything more than HP, BExp won't help his Speed out a whole lot until he's almost at third tier. Boyd is a useful fill-in unit for the Greil Merc chapters in Part 3 and Part 4, but he ain't gonna turn out as good as Chuck Nolan.

Soren has always swayed opinions. In PoR, he was great but outclassed by Calill simply because she could wield the heavy tomes without any AS penalties. In RD he's the best Archsage in the game, but due to mediocre stat caps (notably Speed) it isn't such a great class.

Callil still outclasses soren in RD because of the Rexflame tome that grants 3 extra speed, she is also around for long enough to get to Third tier in a reasonable timeframe. Plus she has desert access.

[ClLoulD]

Callil still outclasses soren in RD because of the Rexflame tome that grants 3 extra speed, she is also around for long enough to get to Third tier in a reasonable timeframe. Plus she has desert access.

If im not mistaken Calil is available for one chapter in part 2 and then she's available next in the chapter "Marauders" then she finally joins Ike's team for one or maybe two chapters IMO that is not a reasonable time frame especially when you have to get her to SS rank in fire tombs, I will admit she is probably really useful with Rexflame but unless you're playing on EM is it really worth it?

[Vicious Sal]

If im not mistaken Calil is available for one chapter in part 2 and then she's available next in the chapter "Marauders" then she finally joins Ike's team for one or maybe two chapters IMO that is not a reasonable time frame especially when you have to get her to SS rank in fire tombs, I will admit she is probably really useful with Rexflame but unless you're playing on EM is it really worth it?

Soren & her start pretty much the same, HP lead vs Mag lead, they are really comparable. Soren does have a huge lead in chapters in which he can contribute, Callil has 2E, 3-9 and 3-11 Onwards. Soren has 3-P and onwards. However, Callil is the only magician in the CRK, and is competing with units that aren't all that spectacular. Soren is competing with units like titania & Haar & Oscar etc. If we are to consider seriously using them both, Soren and Callil both get favoritism in the form of resources. Calill joins the chapter after the BEXP gathering fest called 2-3. I'm not saying she gets all BEXP, but she can gain at least 2-3 levels.

I don't know how you want to play, but for LTC, callil can get even more BEXP so she can meteor ludveck for a 1 turn. In slower play she can feast for 15 turns on enemies in 2-E Same goes for 3-9, meteor the boss, or slowplay and get kills. Most important thing is, Soren needs adept to kill things, he has great MAG, but his speed is struggling like boyd. After a few levels, Callil has enough speed to double and decent enough MAG to ORKO more consistently.

It's probably good if someone who knows the more intricate details explains, because I probably won't be able to.

Or I could just search that extraordinarily long post which explained the entire reasoning...

Edited November 15, 2012 by Vicious Sal

[PKL]

Soren & her start pretty much the same, HP lead vs Mag lead, they are really comparable. Soren does have a huge lead in chapters in which he can contribute, Callil has 2E, 3-9 and 3-11 Onwards. Soren has 3-P and onwards. However, Callil is the only magician in the CRK, and is competing with units that aren't all that spectacular. Soren is competing with units like titania & Haar & Oscar etc. If we are to consider seriously using them both, Soren and Callil both get favoritism in the form of resources. Calill joins the chapter after the BEXP gathering fest called 2-3. I'm not saying she gets all BEXP, but she can gain at least 2-3 levels.

I don't know how you want to play, but for LTC, callil can get even more BEXP so she can meteor ludveck for a 1 turn. In slower play she can feast for 15 turns on enemies in 2-E Same goes for 3-9, meteor the boss, or slowplay and get kills. Most important thing is, Soren needs adept to kill things, he has great MAG, but his speed is struggling like boyd. After a few levels, Callil has enough speed to double and decent enough MAG to ORKO more consistently.

It's probably good if someone who knows the more intricate details explains, because I probably won't be able to.

Or I could just search that extraordinarily long post which explained the entire reasoning...

There's so many wrong things in this paragraph that I dont even know where to start >_>. First, Calill competes with Marcia, a flier in the CRK chapters that will be more useful than her in the longterm. So Calill isnt exactly looking hot now, is she? Soren easily caps Mag Skl Res if trained and will cap Spd in an instant, how is that having spd problems? Calill's BEXP situation is worse as none of her stats are close to capping. And Calill will never be able to 1 turn 2-E what are you even talking about? Unless you magically get a max mag Calill through BEXP and rig a crit or something. The best Ive gotten with Calill was a 3 turn after BEXPfeeding her every single ounce of Part 2 BEXP. Do note that you got guys like Haar, Nealuchi, Marcia+Brom Hammer and Elincia who can 1 TURN the map without taking every single ounce of your BEXP. Soren does not need Adept to kill things. Anyway, at least he actually EXISTS unlike her and can be a decent to good unit with favoritism. Attacking with 1-2 range, sieging, Celerity + Innate Adept, shovable by almost everyone and their mom. Sure, if you dont USE him, he's bad. But guess what? If you are assuming you are not using a unit, then you are sandbagging the unit. Do note that Soren SOLOS of Part 3 have been done before, that he's one of the easiest users of BEXP ever, that he has a lot of resources to fall back on if you choose to use him, and hes not exactly looking so bad then, huh?

[Dr. Silent]

^The Marcia thing is irrelevant. Raising her up is risky due to her really poor Str growth (30%). If she gets Str screwed, you basically wasted your time and resources. If she didn't, then she's still not half as good as Jill/Haar. Not to mention she will have trouble killing things for quite some time in any difficulty not called Easy.

Calill, on the other hand, has a wonderful time in 2-E if you play it defensively. She can easily gain 3+ levels, hopefully getting her stats good enough for 3-9 so she can be given Paragon to gain more levels. If you do this, chances are she'll join Ike's team at a similar level to Soren (who is always going to lag behind level-wise).

Or you could just ignore both and solo 3-9 with Kieran.

[PKL]

And Calill can get screwed in mag. Marcia is the best 3-9 unit as a Seraph Knight and more fliers never hurts in 3-11 and the desert. She's just a better investment than Calill.

[Shadow Mir]

^The Marcia thing is irrelevant. Raising her up is risky due to her really poor Str growth (30%). If she gets Str screwed, you basically wasted your time and resources. If she didn't, then she's still not half as good as Jill/Haar. Not to mention she will have trouble killing things for quite some time in any difficulty not called Easy.

Calill, on the other hand, has a wonderful time in 2-E if you play it defensively. She can easily gain 3+ levels, hopefully getting her stats good enough for 3-9 so she can be given Paragon to gain more levels. If you do this, chances are she'll join Ike's team at a similar level to Soren (who is always going to lag behind level-wise).

Or you could just ignore both and solo 3-9 with Kieran.

Aside from what PKL said, forges can fix Marcia's str problems, but Kieran's speed issue is more serious.

[Dr. Silent]

Calill's Magic growth is acceptable enough at 40% (or was 45%? I forgot). Not nearly as unreliable as Marcia's 30% Str.

Yes Marcia turns out well enough if trained and if her Str growth was lucky, but ultimately she gets thrown into the "too much effort required" pile. If it's any consolation, so does Calill.

Of all the Crimean buddies that join Ike's team in 3-11, Kieran is easily the best investment. He initially joins at a high level with good stats, has enough base Spd to double most enemies early on, and will cap HP, Str, Def, and Skill quickly enough so that his Spd will catch up quickly enough (RD mechanics - at least one stat must increase per level up). Let him solo 3-9 in its entirety (except the five enemies who spawn at the starting point...leave them to Geoffrey and Devdan) with Paragon equipped, boss abuse the boss if you feel you have to, and in 3-11 he'll be joining Ike's team at a similar level to most of Ike's crew (that you've been using) with the majority of his stats capped. All that for considerably less effort than training up any of the others. Replace Oscar with him pronto!

[PKL]

Apply what you said about BEXP to Marcia. What now? Her str is easily fixed too with BEXP and forges.

Edited November 15, 2012 by HORSEBIRD

[Shadow Mir]

Calill's Magic growth is acceptable enough at 40% (or was 45%? I forgot). Not nearly as unreliable as Marcia's 30% Str.

Yes Marcia turns out well enough if trained and if her Str growth was lucky, but ultimately she gets thrown into the "too much effort required" pile. If it's any consolation, so does Calill.

Of all the Crimean buddies that join Ike's team in 3-11, Kieran is easily the best investment. He initially joins at a high level with good stats, has enough base Spd to double most enemies early on, and will cap HP, Str, Def, and Skill quickly enough so that his Spd will catch up quickly enough (RD mechanics - at least one stat must increase per level up). Let him solo 3-9 in its entirety (except the five enemies who spawn at the starting point...leave them to Geoffrey and Devdan) with Paragon equipped, boss abuse the boss if you feel you have to, and in 3-11 he'll be joining Ike's team at a similar level to most of Ike's crew (that you've been using) with the majority of his stats capped. All that for considerably less effort than training up any of the others. Replace Oscar with him pronto!

I don't see Kieran as that much better off than Oscar, tbh. That biorhythm wave is just ick. Besides, I could make just about anyone good with the favoritism you say Kieran should get. Also, saving those houses in 3-9 gives me a boatload of BEXP.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Golden Cucco

[Comet]

How about Ilyana? She wasn't that great in por, but she isn't that great in radiant dawn either(except from murdering dragons from ridiculous range in rebirth 3).

[Vicious Sal]

There's so many wrong things in this paragraph that I dont even know where to start >_>. First, Calill competes with Marcia, a flier in the CRK chapters that will be more useful than her in the longterm. So Calill isnt exactly looking hot now, is she? Soren easily caps Mag Skl Res if trained and will cap Spd in an instant, how is that having spd problems? Calill's BEXP situation is worse as none of her stats are close to capping. And Calill will never be able to 1 turn 2-E what are you even talking about? Unless you magically get a max mag Calill through BEXP and rig a crit or something. The best Ive gotten with Calill was a 3 turn after BEXPfeeding her every single ounce of Part 2 BEXP. Do note that you got guys like Haar, Nealuchi, Marcia+Brom Hammer and Elincia who can 1 TURN the map without taking every single ounce of your BEXP. Soren does not need Adept to kill things. Anyway, at least he actually EXISTS unlike her and can be a decent to good unit with favoritism. Attacking with 1-2 range, sieging, Celerity + Innate Adept, shovable by almost everyone and their mom. Sure, if you dont USE him, he's bad. But guess what? If you are assuming you are not using a unit, then you are sandbagging the unit. Do note that Soren SOLOS of Part 3 have been done before, that he's one of the easiest users of BEXP ever, that he has a lot of resources to fall back on if you choose to use him, and hes not exactly looking so bad then, huh?

Soren competes with Haar, Possibly Jill, Titania, Oscar. I don't care about marcia.

Furthermore, I'm glad to see you read everything about the part where I said it wasn't my own shouts, but pointers I remembered from someone who posted this massively long argument. I also said I'd look it up, granted, work got in the way.

The only thing I remembered wrong is the three turn of 2-E in that case, also, thanks for completely ignoring the "inefficiency" way. Can you actually see any of these games in a way that isn't "screw 95 % of the game i just want to get through it ASAP"

Seriously, you're acting like a Metaknight mainer.

[ClLoulD]

Aside from what PKL said, forges can fix Marcia's str problems, but Kieran's speed issue is more serious.

I think in the first chapter you get to use the Crimean Royal Knights one enemy drops a speedwing, that sorts out Kieran's speed problem.

[PKL]

^ Not really. The guy will stop doubling with his awful spd cap and will be stuck to 25 spd for a long while after promo. It doesnt help that most of the coming chapters are Paladin hate. So he never gets to be good.

@ Vicious Sal- I do tend to evaluate units in a vacuum because of drafts. Anyway, CRK's budget and resources are far more tight than the GMs most of the time, so Calill getting BEXP over Marcia is just as unlikely as Soren getting BEXP over other GMs.