[NOC] [Anon] [Open Set-Up] Strip Mafia - lol

[Sham]

It seems like Dwarf is purely basing his arguments on that Illusio is scum simply for changing his opinions. Imo it's a good idea to get as many different different people going at each other on the 1st day, that way you can call people out later. Just because Illusio is mixing it up doesn't automatically make him scum, of course I would say Illusio is still 3 or 4 on my list of mafia suspects. Also in the interest of full disclosure his posting 3 identical quotes in a row, crappy looking charts or an annoying frog .gif is pissing me off.

As for Illusio's logic, I think he nailed it here:

Basically, your main point is I'm too aggressive and I do not respond or address your defences. The main bulk of your argument is just more elaboration on why I'm too aggressive.

A few thousand pages or posts of elaboration for a point does not make that one point equivalent to a few thousand points.

I don't see the multitude or magnitude of your points, and I have quoted another post that you failed to address, that aggression is not a scumtell.

Rebut this with something I can actually rebut please, or stop wasting town's time with your weak points.

It's like Dwarf just keeps ragging on about one tell, and because of that one tell anything Illusio says is a bullshit.

[Sham]

also, bogeto: "evidence? find it yourself."

no. you're trying to convince us of something. burden of proof is on you, not us, especially since things like logic and irrationality aren't ironclad things that everyone sees as the same. i could read the last few pages and interpret their posts as the exact opposite of what you've declared them to be.

Ok fair enough.

[Rain Nijika]

actually if you just go at like half the game early on it lets you (as scum) opportunistically jump on their wagon at any time by citing some point you made long ago and saying "yeah i always thought this guy was scum".

[Sham]

So you would rather him tunnel one person the entire day?

[Rain Nijika]

I still think Illusio and Parsel can't be on the same scumteam. Nor Urist and Illusio, obviously. Or Bogeto and Urist, because he chose to vote Urist instead.

blah this is a good point actually. but because i really think bogeto and parsel are scummy, it's just making me think that both illusio and urist are town. i still want to lynch one of them though, bc associative tells without flips are retarded, and it'll prod the other one to actually do something instead of votepark the other. and if illusio/urist flip scum then it'll improve my opinion of parsel.

about the bogeto/urist thing though, just because bogeto voted urist in a time when he could've voted either urist or illusio without too much repercussion doesn't mean they can't be scumbuddies. i'll point you to cmv, where half the scumteam voted for english, who was also scum, over showtime, who was town, on d1, when the town were scrambling to get together a lynch on one of the two.

[Shiki Ryougi]

the thing about tunneling is that while scum might do it because you can get out of offering reads on 90% of the game, it also really fucks you over if the person you're tunneling flips town. and if urist is scum and knows illusio is town, being so direct about mislynching a townie so far away from mylo/lylo is not something scum really wants to do.

Does it? I'm pretty inclined onto believing that, if Illusio flips town, they'll forgive him because he made a lot of slips and most people agree that Illusio wasn't really acting like a pro-town. It's a win/win situation for him, if Urist is really scum.

It's pretty clear Urist only thinks about lynching Illusio now. He doesn't have any reads, he dismissed your suggestion of outing reads by who's the scummiest read and who is the least scummy read because of that imo.

[Rain Nijika]

So you would rather him tunnel one person the entire day?

dont twist my words. the ideal is that people go after around three or four people at a time. urist and illusio are on the opposite sides of this ideal, obviously, and neither are doing it right in that regard. but if i had to choose which one was worse i'd rather lynch the person throwing half-baked suspicions at a lot of people than the person putting everything against one person.

also, IMPORTANT NOTE: announcers, don't out yourself in your announcements at least until the cop is dead or claimed. if you're town you'll just be narrowing down the identity of the cop for the mafia

[Aizen]

Haven't you read mine and Jay's posts saying why we think he's a TOWN newbie and not scum doing something stupid? I'm used to dealing with the later a lot, really. I've seen cases where scum try to act smart but fail badly while trying to do something bad. My judgment isn't perfect, but he doesn't seem to be scum to me.

For one, this is an Anon game. We can't know for sure whether he's a newbie or not. Stop assuming he is just because he's played terribly so far. Second, YOU YOURSELF said his "playstyle" is extremely scummy. How far do you have to grasp to say this is just "bad town"?

Also, you're trying your hardest to make us believe Illusio is definitely scum, from the way you phrase your posts. Are you sure about that? Are you softclaiming Cop? Then stop saying he's definitely scum, that you convicted him as scum, that people who believe him not to be scum but town newbie are wrong and are giving him a free pass, that it's obvious he's scum etc. By the way, is he your only scumread? It seems you completely forgot about the game to focus on a single target... And this is one of the reasons why I believe you're being opportunistic by tunneling an easy lynch target.

Rolefish harder. I'm the cop and I got N0 guilty result on Magus lynch lynch lynch

Bogeto's vote is pretty awful and I would vote him over if if it weren't blatant OMGUS and I already demanded a Magus lynch today.

[Aizen]

Also:

Just read through the last page, it's pretty prevalent.

Can we at least agree to vote Illuso, Dwarf, or me by the end of the day? Last thing we want is not enough of a majority and losing a day.

DIDN'T READ THE THREAD

DIDN'T READ THE THREAD

DIDN'T READ THE THREAD

[Rain Nijika]

Does it? I'm pretty inclined onto believing that, if Illusio flips town, they'll forgive him because he made a lot of slips and most people agree that Illusio wasn't really acting like a pro-town. It's a win/win situation for him, if Urist is really scum.

It's pretty clear Urist only thinks about lynching Illusio now. He doesn't have any reads, he dismissed your suggestion of outing reads by who's the scummiest read and who is the least scummy read because of that imo.

that's true i guess. tbf though he did say he'd settle for a bogeto lynch if illusio wasn't lynched.

also we have less than 7 hours left and neither of our largest wagons is even L-2. i'll switch to urist if i have to if he's higher in votes to get the lynch, but doing that wouldn't even achieve anything atm. i'll bbl and i really hope that one of the wagons is larger in size by the time i get back.

[Aizen]

>Contradictions

>Avoiding questions

>flipflop voting

>sidestepping and misrepping

"newbie town"

>tunneling endlessly on the obvious scum

"scum"

>Trying to use meta in an Anon game

priceless

[Sham]

Also:

DIDN'T READ THE THREAD

DIDN'T READ THE THREAD

DIDN'T READ THE THREAD

You're really not helping your case.

[Aizen]

This game would be a lot easier if Viking and Ikakas got their shit in here and picked one of these three wagons

I think I'll choose Scumhunter X as my third because he's so valiantly defending his meta reasons for not voting the obvious scum. Bogeto is still my second because he can't read the game and he's only voting me for tunneling. His defense of Magus is basically the same bullshit oversimplification of my case.

[Kamina]

Basically, your main point is I'm too aggressive and I do not respond or address your defences. The main bulk of your argument is just more elaboration on why I'm too aggressive.

A few thousand pages or posts of elaboration for a point does not make that one point equivalent to a few thousand points.

I don't see the multitude or magnitude of your points, and I have quoted another post that you failed to address, that aggression is not a scumtell.

Rebut this with something I can actually rebut please, or stop wasting town's time with your weak points.

Dude. Seriously. Cut this out. All you're doing is attacking absolutely everything, and not defending yourself because apparently no one's arguments are worth replying to. You remind me of a little kid shouting names at people with his fingers stuffed in his ears, and I honestly think this annoying attitude is getting you votes all on its own. If you think this is a viable town strategy, please explain what good it does.

(On a similar note, Dwarf, we get the point, stop posting that blasted image already)

Parsel is clearly not getting lynched today, and I don't think either Magus or Dwarf is a good lynch, much as their posts are making me want to punch them. Bogeto's posts were definitely not what I wanted from him, so this, I think, is the best option.

##Unvote

##Vote: Bogeto Bogeto

[Shiki Ryougi]

blah this is a good point actually. but because i really think bogeto and parsel are scummy, it's just making me think that both illusio and urist are town. i still want to lynch one of them though, bc associative tells without flips are retarded, and it'll prod the other one to actually do something instead of votepark the other. and if illusio/urist flip scum then it'll improve my opinion of parsel.

about the bogeto/urist thing though, just because bogeto voted urist in a time when he could've voted either urist or illusio without too much repercussion doesn't mean they can't be scumbuddies. i'll point you to cmv, where half the scumteam voted for english, who was also scum, over showtime, who was town, on d1, when the town were scrambling to get together a lynch on one of the two.

I haven't read CMV but this case is completely different from what is going on here. Bogeto will hardly earn town points with this because it looks like he's buddying with Illusio more than anything (calling Urist unlogical and the later logical and saying he's got a good case is a very personal thing, it's not a solid argument. His defense did nothing to alleviate this). I don't think Illusio would prod Parsel on early D1 if they were scumbuddies because it was unnecessary, all they managed to do is distract town with something pointless.

Note that I'm not saying Bogeto is town if Illusio is town/Urist is scummy.

Also, I wouldn't call Illusio an hypocrite because he was grasping more on other players' arguments agaisnt Urist than making his own arguments and throwing at him. I think he couldn't defend himself or attack properly.

I'm not liking how Gonzai has shown up, posted, attacked, tore posts out of context, voted and then disappeared after I pointed out that he misrepresented my post. What do you guys think about this.

Also, I'm fairly certain I've caught ahold of a scum member here, with his constant slip ups and leaving out important facts until prodded again. Thoughts as well?

This post makes me believe that. His arguments agaisnt Urist are echoes and he doesn't seem to trust himself enough. Then again, this is what he did to many players he voted, so I still believe this is a newbie trait more than a scum trait.

[Aizen]

ffffff

why not both newbie AND scum traits?

[Shiki Ryougi]

Why not both newbie and town traits? He's slipping a lot and not acting pro-townly, but that doesn't mean he is insta-scum like you keep saying over and over (you dwarves like to dig deeper into tunnels it seems).

My problem with Illusio is that he is failing miserably whenever he does something and he's slipping a lot. Is it wrong for me to think that, although he's done bad things, he isn't completely scummy, and what you're doing is suspiciously scummy?

[Sham]

I haven't read CMV but this case is completely different from what is going on here. Bogeto will hardly earn town points with this because it looks like he's buddying with Illusio more than anything (calling Urist unlogical and the later logical and saying he's got a good case is a very personal thing, it's not a solid argument. His defense did nothing to alleviate this). I don't think Illusio would prod Parsel on early D1 if they were scumbuddies because it was unnecessary, all they managed to do is distract town with something pointless.

Note that I'm not saying Bogeto is town if Illusio is town/Urist is scummy.

Keep In mind I said Illusio is still up there on my list, I just think that Dwarf has a greater chance of being scum. If I get lynched don't assume Illusio is town just because I defended him.

[Shiki Ryougi]

Keep In mind I said Illusio is still up there on my list, I just think that Dwarf has a greater chance of being scum. If I get lynched don't assume Illusio is town just because I defended him.

You still didn't explain why Illusio sounds more reasonable than Urist. Why did you pick him over Illusio, then?

[C. C.]

##Unvote:

##Vote: Illusio

This is solely for the sake of information. If I had my choice I would lynch scumhunter or bogeto. Is there anyway we can swap and lynch bogeto? ;///

[Estelle]

Okay, I slept for around 16 hours. I'm going to catch up with the thread now.

I'll admit Illusio's posts are getting to the post where I can barely stand reading them anymore. ;/

[Aizen]

Why not both newbie and town traits? He's slipping a lot and not acting pro-townly, but that doesn't mean he is insta-scum like you keep saying over and over (you dwarves like to dig deeper into tunnels it seems).

My problem with Illusio is that he is failing miserably whenever he does something and he's slipping a lot. Is it wrong for me to think that, although he's done bad things, he isn't completely scummy, and what you're doing is suspiciously scummy?

Illusio isn't scumhunting.

[Sham]

@Scumhunter

Well 1st of all, when Illusio originally voted for Dwarf, he gave him very straightforward questions:

For now, I want Dwarf to explain several things. One of which is what he means by over aggressive and over defensive when he describes the exchange between Parseltongue and I. I'm sure town would have noticed as I did that he has not touched one bit on the content of our exchange, but only on the tone of our exchange (aggressive vs defensive). I want him to address on what Parseltongue and I have brought up in our exchange like the others have done.

##Vote: Urist McDwarf

Dwarf then responds vaguely answering the question about Parseltounge while discrediting his other ones (specifically Illusio being over defensive) by saying they are unnecessary or invalid. I feel like these are valid questions, and by shutting them down, it makes it harder for Illusio to go after him.

@Magus: I didn't like how you were blasting Parsel for not answering some fairly pointless questions, for one. Questions like "Are you scum?" I would see as a bit of a joke. I did touch on the content of the exchange (specifically how I disliked Parsel's insult-slinging), so that reason is invalid.

Furthermore:

##Unvote

##Vote: IllusioMagus

Magus has been very aggressive. I can understand the pressure vote on me to explain things more, but he also adds superfluous reasons to try and justify his vote more, which do not add up for him. This combined with his aggressive attacks on Parsel do not make him look quite as good in the end.

Before someone retaliates, I mentioned Magus came out better in the exchange with Parsel, but that does not necessarily mean I thought he was good overall.

Then Illusio states he doesn't approve of the answer....

##Vote: Urist McDwarf

I'm placing my vote back on you because I do not like your answer to my question (recall that my vote was initially on you for this question).

Dwarf sidesteps....

Scumtells are such for a reason, you do realize. Magus has been voting for flimsy or superfluous reasons and dropping his votes just as quickly.

Speaking of which:

Magus, can you explain what you dislike about my answer to your question? You also seem to be sidestepping the fact that I am voting you, and the reasons for why.

Illusio sidesteps....

I dislike that you're very vague and only barely touched on what I wanted you to explain.

Dwarf finally answers Illusio's initial questions and counterattacks:

Overagression is what you have been doing the whole game. Wild mass finger pointing and pushing around your vote with wild abandon. The inflated paranoia does not help things any.

Hyperdefense is when Parsel wwas spending all his time defending without doing any scumhunting, which did not turn out to be the case (mostly because there was little else to comment on in the first place)

I do believe I have touched quite a lot on the exchange and it's issues. The sidestepped questions are a dumb accusation (one you keep bringing up, also the game doesn't have a lie detector, so quit speculating) The GrapeSoda scumparing is ridiculous, as I helpfully pointed out in my graphs.

The accusation of tunneling the whole game is simply quick to judge

Quote

I can rest my case here, because all the evidence I've brought up have proven beyond all reasonable doubt that you are scumThis is an extremely haughty thing to say and only makes you look bad. Especially considering how easy it is to disagree with all your "evidence". It's a terrible way to end an argument and try and put yourself in a higher standing.

I am surprised I even thought you came out better in that exchange, now that I reread it.

You also continue to sidestep my vote on you while attacking me further. Smells like OMGUS.

Then Illusio calls him out for not answering his question initially:

Yet, your vote on me, as proclaimed by you, was in reaction to my vote on you earlier on in the day.

I have addressed the fact that the only reason you voted for me was for overaggressiveness. Other players have addressed it as well.

You, on the other hand, failed to address what they've advised you.

I'm happy with my vote on you at the moment.

Note also that you only bothered to clarify yourself after I asked the question again. You flip flipped a lot as well.

I've said my piece here, take your time to ponder what I've said.

Then Dwarf basically calls Ilussio a dumbass to discredit him:

Thank you for oversimplifying everything I have posted so far. Surely I must be a neanderthal to be unable to understand my complex reasoning and debate.

I didn't "clarify" myself more then "repeat myself and add a few things to it".

After this it kinda tapers off, but I would say Dwarf is probably scum and Illusio possibly scum. That whole exchange just seems fishy to me.

[Aizen]

More to the point, Magus's only reasons for voting me are a half-true and flimsy reason "I'm accusing people of playing aggressively, one person of which he said is Parsel (which I did not ever say was being aggressive), and that he didn't like the answers to some questions he gave me.

After that he's accused me (wrongfully) of slipups multiple times, and generally just called me scummy for the hell of it.

[Aizen]

Whoa there, buddy. Hold on.

Dwarf then responds vaguely answering the question about Parseltounge while discrediting his other ones (specifically Illusio being over defensive) by saying they are unnecessary or invalid. I feel like these are valid questions, and by shutting them down, it makes it harder for Illusio to go after him.

It's because I did explain my thoughts on the debate already.

Dwarf sidesteps....

How did I sidestep? I asked him what he thought was wrong with it. I even answered the question a SECOND time, resummarizing all the points I had before and adding some critique of Magus's posts in the exchange (which you thoughtfully quoted)

Then Dwarf basically calls Ilussio a dumbass to discredit him:

He oversimplified my case and ignored it, which he's been doing the whole game! Then he had the gall to bring up the reasoning he didn't like my answered which I answered TWICE!