Excellen Browning Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 It's you. You are the one destroying your country. and this is inapropriate either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 I thought the program was concerned with gun ownership in general, not just concealed carry. So why were you implying licensees are the only ones with guns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defeatist Elitist Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 and this is inapropriate either way. Hey, I'm a rude boy sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 This is the Serious Discussion forum. Please keep the level of discourse at a high level, and not the sort of quips that may be acceptable in the lighter fora. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excellen Browning Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Hey, I'm a rude boy sometimes. and this thread might just end up even worse than it was because of it. I suppose you felt it needed to be said, but that really just means to me you did the same thing he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Hey, I'm a rude boy sometimes. This isn't really helping discussion at all. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defeatist Elitist Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) and this thread might just end up even worse than it was because of it. I suppose you felt it needed to be said, but that really just means to me you did the same thing he did. I'm not sure why the thread would end up any worse. I mean, it's pretty obvious I don't actually think that he's personally destroying the US, I was just making a fairly obvious play on what he said. Now, I absolutely think he's been fairly consistently wrong and intellectually dishonest (whether he means to be or not) in this thread, and I'm sure people know that I think that, but hey. Edited December 16, 2012 by Defeatist Elitist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Even with the checks in place stopping people from obtaining guns, that doesn't stop people who had failed checks from using other people's legally acquired arms. The mother in this instance was so very careless with her own weapons which was a vital ingredient to this massacre. Some people (such as myself) would take the blame right down the line and shift it on to the legal availability of such firearms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redturtle806 Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 (edited) Even with the checks in place stopping people from obtaining guns, that doesn't stop people who had failed checks from using other people's legally acquired arms. The mother in this instance was so very careless with her own weapons which was a vital ingredient to this massacre. Some people (such as myself) would take the blame right down the line and shift it on to the legal availability of such firearms. I just don't agree with taking away the rights of millions because of the mistakes of a few. Was the massacre horrible? Yes. Should the mother have taken more precautions around a mentally unstable child? Absolutely. However it's not a reason to base national policies on the actions of a few crazed individuals. Plus if guns are made illegal: What about people who live in dangerous neighborhoods and rely on firearms to keep their family and home safe? What about people who hunt for food in less developed places like Louisiana or Alaska? What about landowners who have to rountily kill dangerous animals such as coyotes or rattlesnakes? What about businesses that put food on the table by making and selling guns? Are they just shit out of luck? What about the enthusiasts who have spent countless dollars/time amassing/maintaining their collection? How would you like it if someone came in and took away your video game collection? What about everyday people? Do we not have a right to self defense? Sorry to all of the above, but we're taking away your rights because some goth kid shot up a school. "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin Edited December 16, 2012 by redturtle806 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blademaster! Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I doubt the slaughter was carried out so that the guy's name would be remembered. Or maybe you're right, you never know. He wouldn't be the first interested to immortalise his name for something disreputable. Knowing his motives and acting upon that knowledge can't possibly fail to correct some people's destinies in the future though. Oh, no I don't mean to say anything about his motives, and I believe Morgan Freeman was more concerned with it contributing to some kind of precedent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excellen Browning Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) I just don't agree with taking away the rights of millions because of the mistakes of a few. Was the massacre horrible? Yes. Should the mother have taken more precautions around a mentally unstable child? Absolutely. However it's not a reason to base national policies on the actions of a few crazed individuals. Plus if guns are made illegal: What about people who live in dangerous neighborhoods and rely on firearms to keep their family and home safe? What about people who hunt for food in less developed places like Louisiana or Alaska? What about landowners who have to rountily kill dangerous animals such as coyotes or rattlesnakes? What about businesses that put food on the table by making and selling guns? Are they just shit out of luck? What about the enthusiasts who have spent countless dollars/time amassing/maintaining their collection? How would you like it if someone came in and took away your video game collection? What about everyday people? Do we not have a right to self defense? Sorry to all of the above, but we're taking away your rights because some goth kid shot up a school. "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin So instead of refuting the point you try to take on this issue by nitpicking about some peripheral things? This is just weak. Also also quote from myself: "Any collection of humans that would give up some freedoms to protect themselves from themselves, is a smart collection of human beings. Because they realize they are not perfect, they will not always be in a state of mind where they can make proper judgment, and because they value life, quality of life and think highly of the ideal that all have a right to life and happiness. Whether or not they are directly responsible for ending up in that state of mind is irrelevant and bad things can happen when they are. Things that can cause others permanent damage or kill them. Things that violate their principles of right to life and happiness. And because of these principles and the high value they attach to them, they decide collectively to limit themselves, to protect those they could potentially harm" - Daigoji Excellen Seriously, those sound like some amazing people. Edited December 17, 2012 by Daigoji Excellen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanami Touko Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Plus if guns are made illegal: What about people who live in dangerous neighborhoods and rely on firearms to keep their family and home safe? What about people who hunt for food in less developed places like Louisiana or Alaska? What about landowners who have to rountily kill dangerous animals such as coyotes or rattlesnakes? What about businesses that put food on the table by making and selling guns? Are they just shit out of luck? What about the enthusiasts who have spent countless dollars/time amassing/maintaining their collection? How would you like it if someone came in and took away your video game collection? What about everyday people? Do we not have a right to self defense? There are plenty of other things they can rely on, such as a baseball bat, a knife, a home security system. People who hunt can follow Canada's example and get a hunting permit for their hunting rifles. People who have to kill dangerous animals can either call professionals or use some other method. And honestly, I don't see how a coyote or a rattlesnake would get into someone's house, otherwise they wouldn't have to kill it. If it's outside, leave it outside, call someone to come get it. Again, permits. And video games don't kill people, not a very fair comparison. You have a right to Mace, a knife, a taser, self defense classes. People in Canada live like this. They are no worse off for not having the right to bear arms. In fact, I would go as fair as to say we're much better off. I will never understand the want of Americans to hold onto their guns. If you are living with so much fear that you feel you need to own a gun to live safely, maybe that's a sign that there is something wrong with your country that needs addressing. and if you tell me that people can't afford to call an exterminator to remove said aforementioned deadly animals, or to take self defense courses, or a home security system, how are they affording their guns and ammo for them in the first place. If you've enough to get a gun you've enough to get an alternative. Edited December 17, 2012 by seph1212 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) redturtle, your arguments are disgraceful strawmen at best. - stating edge cases where gun ownership may be a potential benefit? - asserting that there is a relationship between economic policies of two disparate states and gun ownership? - implying that the general political environment of china (which definitely has its problems, in addition to its merits) is relevant to the occurrence of violent crime? - citing articles that do not thoroughly explore the relationship between various factors (aside from passage of individual gun control laws) and gun crime? - quoting historical figures out of context and with complete disregard to reality? my impression is that you seem to have a provincial understanding of the possible approaches to gun control enforcement. evidently you feel that, due to a handful of statistics where passage of a couple of gun control laws were ineffective at curbing gun crime (which could have been affected by any number of outside factors), that gun control as a whole is irreconcilably ineffective. previously you posted this statement: You are just a typical liberal jackass who has no idea how the world actually works, and is completely closed minded to any view other than your own. have you stopped for a moment and considered the irony here? Edited December 17, 2012 by HORSEBlRD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redturtle806 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 There are plenty of other things they can rely on, such as a baseball bat, a knife, a home security system. That works great until you are bleeding out on the floor because you tried to take on a criminal packing heat with a bat. Also any decent thief is in and out before police respond to a call. People who hunt can follow Canada's example and get a hunting permit for their hunting rifles. No problems with this. Just make it so any sane, non-felon can get one. People who have to kill dangerous animals can either call professionals or use some other method. And honestly, I don't see how a coyote or a rattlesnake would get into someone's house, otherwise they wouldn't have to kill it. If it's outside, leave it outside, call someone to come get it. It's not about getting into the house, its about these animals eating goats and chickens, or having a child bitten by a rattlesnake. Rattlesnake dens can have hundrends of snakes, and if you live near one it can mean having to kill snakes multiple times a day. Big snakes are not fun to kill without a gun, my mom made kill snakes with a shovel when I was a kid, and I was almost bit several times. It's much easier to just pop them with a few rounds. Besides you honestly would have no problem with deadly snakes crawing around in your yard, as long as it didn't come into your house? Also LOL at calling an exterminator every time you have to deal with a dangerous animal, just grow some balls and shoot it. Again, permits. And video games don't kill people, not a very fair comparison. No problems with this. Just make it so any sane, non-felon can get one. You have a right to Mace, a knife, a taser, self defense classes. And a gun, becasue I live in America. People in Canada live like this. They are no worse off for not having the right to bear arms. In fact, I would go as fair as to say we're much better off. I will never understand the want of Americans to hold onto their guns. If you are living with so much fear that you feel you need to own a gun to live safely, maybe that's a sign that there is something wrong with your country that needs addressing. That's your opinion. I will never understand why Candians are so scared of a tool that can be used for good as well as evil. Also Mexico, Mexico is our problem. and if you tell me that people can't afford to call an exterminator to remove said aforementioned deadly animals, or to take self defense courses, or a home security system, how are they affording their guns and ammo for them in the first place. If you've enough to get a gun you've enough to get an alternative. Why should I have to do all this when a gun does a better job solving these problems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 But you would agree that, similarly to a culture that enjoys alcohol, prohibiting the ownership of firearms as a reaction to horrible events is a poor action, right? I think that the position that America is in culturally makes it impossible and impractical for a prohibition on firearms to be effective. It's probably more worthwhile to promote good mental health care, so that individuals like Adam Lanza aren't driven to such horrible actions. But that doesn't mean that I can't point out that the high rates of gun crime in the United States are a result of that gun culture (among other factors). There is no evidence at all? Anywhere? Really? I spoke too rashly: there is circumstantial evidence for both sides, that I think overall favour a society with few guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Because 'murica is doing great with statistics for firearm-related deaths compared to most other countries in the world that have guns banned. 'Murica will never discuss gun control, because that's how THEY ROLL, G! I'm sick of hearing news like this. Sort your shit out. Or don't, and forever put off the issue as more innocent people get killed. Whatever. Edited December 17, 2012 by Kelsper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanami Touko Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Mr. Redturtle, I would take the time to respond to you, but I am not the most well spoken or knowledgeable person on the forums, so I'm sure someone else will take the time to prove you wrong for me, whilst doing a better job. Or, they'll do what I'm doing, and not bother, because you seem to be incredibly biased by your love for firearms. Edited December 17, 2012 by seph1212 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excellen Browning Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) favour a society with few guns. Or at the very least a society where not a significant minority is doped up on prescription drugs, whatever self medication they buy online, or just plain old drugs or alcohol. Taking antidepressants will never fix your problem. Usually they just make it worse. Same with all of the other shit you can get from your doctor or China. They'll just hide the symptoms (somewhat) and have a ton of side effects. Edited December 17, 2012 by Daigoji Excellen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esau of Isaac Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 One thing for certain here is that your attitude, redturtle806, towards a fellow member of this forum leaves a bad taste in even my own bad-mannered mouth. It's rotten. You need to learn to respect the people you are debating with and not go around abusing them, despite what you may think of what they have said. You are obviously in support of the right to bear arms, however you are not setting a good example for all the other people who also have the same beliefs as you. If I was Anouleth I wouldn't even bother debating with you due to your shitty attitude towards him. Sort it out. How can you possibly expect someone to react well following your constant sanctimonious behavior throughout this an other topics regarding gun control? You've been a thinly-veiled dick throughout many of these conversations by just sitting on a high horse and painting the picture of a crime-ridden America, with everyone fearing just to walk around outside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinnidy Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Maaan this topic sure went haywire. Guns are kewl guys. I was going to talk about sympathy to the relatives of the victims and the relatives of the shooter, and wish for more awareness on cases like this, with hopes of better times for Eagleland, but I guess that's out of the picture right now... I'd support stricter rules on guns, but that's not my country so eh... Still, if most countries, including the remarkably-violent one I live in, can pull it off and see tragedies of this kind less often, I don't see how the US can't. Well... at any rate, I'm better not sticking my nose in this one. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redturtle806 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 (edited) Or at the very least a society where not a significant minority is doped up on prescription drugs, whatever self medication they buy online, or just plain old drugs or alcohol. Taking antidepressants will never fix your problem. Usually they just make it worse. Same with all of the other shit you can get from your doctor or China. They'll just hide the symptoms (somewhat) and have a ton of side effects. Now this I agree with 100%. The number of people abusing Adderall, Ritalin, Xanax, Prozac, Ambien, and other pills is way too damn high. Also those people are way too damn high. Mr. Redturtle, I would take the time to respond to you, but I am not the most well spoken or knowledgeable person on the forums, so I'm sure someone else will take the time to prove you wrong for me, whilst doing a better job. Or, they'll do what I'm doing, and not bother, because you seem to be incredibly biased by your love for firearms. Just to be clear, I DON'T OWN A FIREARM. I just have firm beliefs in the rights of lawful people owning them. Also I'll probaly get one when I get a house or family (in 10,000 years from now xD) but I don't see the use for one at this moment in my life. I've had many experiences with firearms though, I went skeet shooting on my uncle's ranch as a kid, spent a night hunkered down in my friends house near the border (There is always someone armed and awake in that house due to raging cartel activity), killed snakes and other pests with my parents gun, been robbed at gun point twice (granted I was buying pot, but it's still a scary experience none the less), and have friends/family who are "gun nuts." What I'm trying to say is that I understand that guns aren't some magical item that instantly make you a badass mofo. Guns can be used for good and they can be used for evil; but they are simply tools. Guns have been used for terrible things, but those people would have done terrible things without legal guns. In order for guns to be used safely, it is up to the lawful citizens to train the next generation about proper gun usage and safety. Also most people on this forum seems incredibly biased in their hate of firearms, so that's kinda a useless statement. Edited December 17, 2012 by eclipse merged double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excellen Browning Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Calling each other biased is a shitty attempt of so called debaters to discredit each other in their own eyes. In other words, it's hollow name calling and you're both a disgrace for doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redturtle806 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Calling each other biased is a shitty attempt of so called debaters to discredit each other in their own eyes. In other words, it's hollow name calling and you're both a disgrace for doing it. I said it was useless.... no pleasing some people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excellen Browning Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I said it was useless.... no pleasing some people. I don't give a fuck what you think but you're acting in a way I'd see a child act. Not someone who is 20 years old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redturtle806 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 redturtle, your arguments are disgraceful strawmen at best. - stating edge cases where gun ownership may be a potential benefit? - asserting that there is a relationship between economic policies of two disparate states and gun ownership? - implying that the general political environment of china (which definitely has its problems, in addition to its merits) is relevant to the occurrence of violent crime? - citing articles that do not thoroughly explore the relationship between various factors (aside from passage of individual gun control laws) and gun crime? - quoting historical figures out of context and with complete disregard to reality? my impression is that you seem to have a provincial understanding of the possible approaches to gun control enforcement. evidently you feel that, due to a handful of statistics where passage of a couple of gun control laws were ineffective at curbing gun crime (which could have been affected by any number of outside factors), that gun control as a whole is irreconcilably ineffective. previously you posted this statement: have you stopped for a moment and considered the irony here? With all due respect, are you fucking kidding me? I've been trying to post numerous example of proper gun usage, and all I ever get is "guns kill, guns are bad mkkaaaayyy?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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