What If There Was MP?

[47948201]

"MP" is unsearchable, but "mana" came up with some surprisingly meager results. Have we really not discussed this?

One of the most defining characteristics of FE magic users as opposed to those from, say, Final Fantasy, is that they use magic exactly like swordfighters use swords, etc. What if, either as a replacement to tome/staff uses or as an addition to it, FEs required mages to expend MP to cast spells? I really don't know of any example situations I can use to try and help spur discussion, but I feel like there's enough to be said about why IS might've strayed away from a system like this.

[ReformBlade]

It'd be Vandal Hearts.

[Gone2Ground]

Other than having to code another system into an already complex game back in the NES era?

Maybe because it's been done before?

How are you going to pass down Legendary spells if you're using a MP system instead of the Tome-uses?

How would you allocate MP off of FE stats, by the user's MAG store?

Would MP cost more for higher spells, or would it be augmentable (I put 1-10mp into this spell, higher making it more powerful)? If augmentable, a bunch of different spells or just one?

[Acacia Sgt]

As a small side-note, FE has used the system once, in Gaiden. Though in there the spells used up HP instead of having a MP system.

[47948201]

About passing down legendary spells, you could maybe Use tomes to "learn" spells? Or use tomes in conjunction with MP, or have tomes have infinite uses, or regenerating uses.

Allocate it off of FE stats? Why wouldn't it be its own stat, like HP?

And I actually like the sound of allocating different amounts of MP into a spell on command, powering up Fire into what's effectively Elfire, and maybe weapon level would determine how much MP you can add to buff a spell? But as for how exactly that would work, I don't know.

EDIT: @Acacia Sgt: Yeah I considered bringing that up in the OP, but really? HP? I guess that can be discussed here, too, but personally I'm quite opposed to that kind of system that makes a game's squishiest units basically ask to be killed. Not that I've experienced much of FE2...

Edited December 20, 2012 by 47948201

[Knight]

I don't know how you could balance it. How do you gain it on the battlefield? And here's another scenario; let's say you attack with a powerful Excalibur, it consumes a lot of mana, and you end your turn, hoping to kill most of the other enemies with the counter attack. But Excalibur wastes so much MP, and factoring other spells you used throughout the battle, you barely have the magic to cast a fire ball, let alone Excalibur, but that was the weapon your mage equipped, and now he can't counter attack. So he has to waste a turn using an MP recovery item, or go somewhere to recover his MP, potentially wasting more turns as many enemies zerg rush him, and he can't do anything about it.

This would render legendary spells and high power magic unusable, since if you're relying on counter attacks, you'll want to conserve MP.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Knight

[47948201]

@Knight: That's a good point about the enemy phase, huh. But do counterattacks need to be automatic? I guess if they were, that'd waste tons of MP like you said, but if they weren't, and spells were just cast on command, units with only either magic or weapons would be pretty useless on the enemy phase, so.... Yeah, I dunno what could be done about that.

[Gone2Ground]

About passing down legendary spells, you could maybe Use tomes to "learn" spells? Or use tomes in conjunction with MP, or have tomes have infinite uses, or regenerating uses.

Allocate it off of FE stats? Why wouldn't it be its own stat, like HP?

And I actually like the sound of allocating different amounts of MP into a spell on command, powering up Fire into what's effectively Elfire, and maybe weapon level would determine how much MP you can add to buff a spell? But as for how exactly that would work, I don't know.

EDIT: @Acacia Sgt: Yeah I considered bringing that up in the OP, but really? HP? I guess that can be discussed here, too, but personally I'm quite opposed to that kind of system that makes a game's squishiest units basically ask to be killed. Not that I've experienced much of FE2...

Well Miciah had Sacrifice, and you could just chain-heal on Easy/Normal (It kept Laura away from the pointy sticks, at least Miccy coulc counterattack), but it does sound like a fairly stupid idea. So, unless mages came with those spells and a truckload of HP, unlikely to be done well.

EDIT: For counterattacks: Don't have one, and buff the spells so you kill them first try more often. This ties into the fluff in a lot of RPG's about how if you disrupt a spellcaster's concentration they can't hit jack shite, and the best way to do that is make them useless on the enemy turn.

Edited December 20, 2012 by Gone2Ground

[Acacia Sgt]

I don't know how you could balance it. How do you gain it on the battlefield? And here's another scenario; let's say you attack with a powerful Excalibur, it consumes a lot of mana, and you end your turn, hoping to kill most of the other enemies with the counter attack. But Excalibur wastes so much MP, and factoring other spells you used throughout the battle, you barely have the magic to cast a fire ball, let alone Excalibur, but that was the weapon your mage equipped, and now he can't counter attack. So he has to waste a turn using an MP recovery item, or go somewhere to recover his MP, potentially wasting more turns as many enemies zerg rush him, and he can't do anything about it.

This would render legendary spells and high power magic unusable, since if you're relying on counter attacks, you'll want to conserve MP.

If I remember correctly, some SRPGs (on the top of my head, there was Tactics Ogre Knight of Lodis, and the Final Fantasy Tactics games) had a permanent active MP Regen effect. That could be a way, or a traditional use of MP restoring items, or perhaps even a combination of the two.

@Knight: That's a good point about the enemy phase, huh. But do counterattacks need to be automatic? I guess if they were, that'd waste tons of MP like you said, but if they weren't, and spells were just cast on command, units with only either magic or weapons would be pretty useless on the enemy phase, so.... Yeah, I dunno what could be done about that.

Perhaps mages could have access to a standard basic 0 MP cost spell to use for such cases.

[Knight]

Perhaps mages could have access to a standard basic 0 MP cost spell to use for such cases.

It would have to be automatically equipped if the caster runs out of MP, but that sounds like it might work.

[47948201]

Automatically equipped if the caster runs out of MP, or maybe ALWAYS used on the enemy phase? Or maybe an option to pick between the two, but then to tell the player if enemies have the option chosen...

[Gone2Ground]

It would have to be automatically equipped if the caster runs out of MP, but that sounds like it might work.

It would also have to suck, for balance reasons.

Like, 3.5 Acid Splash which does less than a friggin punch sucky.

[Ike-Mike]

I quite like the magic system in Gaiden.

It's just logical to me that you have to use your own life force to cast magic instead of some other arbitrary resource which is implied to be some sort of life force in most other RPGs anyway.

[Parrhesia]

... Maybe mages shouldn't be left out in the open to eat fucktons of EP attacks?

It'd be interesting, but they'd need a weak 0MP attack to default to.

[BrightBow]

I guess they could go back to use Knives or Staffs then.

Also, I would say that a MP system would be better then HP since the latter can be so easily restored. Then we could maybe have a few more special magic effects without breaking the game.

Plus, such a system could also be used to allow physical units to perform special commands at the cost of this limited resource.

Edited December 20, 2012 by BrightBow

[Momo]

I quite like the magic system in Gaiden.

It's just logical to me that you have to use your own life force to cast magic instead of some other arbitrary resource which is implied to be some sort of life force in most other RPGs anyway.

That sounds interesting, but I'm not sure if this could work with the relatively low HP Fire Emblem units have. Hurting themselves with every attack would mean archers and stuff would eat them alive, wouldn't it?

[OrangeCrush980]

I think such a system would end up just nerfing mages, and they have enough trouble already.

[Gold Vanguard]

MP? What is this Final Fantasy Tactics advance?

[Integrity]

I think such a system would end up just nerfing mages, and they have enough trouble already.

If there was MP Mages could be redesigned to be more powerful. They're not talking about bolting a mana system straight onto FE Mages as they are.

[deleted35362]

In the masterpiece of FE2, using magic cost health. That emphasized the idea that magic units should provide support from the rear, rather than FSUing a whole army by themselves.

[Rehab]

How often did that happen in FE1, or in general in the franchise's history? Honest question, I don't know much about how effective mages have really been over time.

Spending MP/HP to get the attacks they have now in addition to using up their weapon sounds like a bum deal, especially if they're only as powerful as the average unit and have to go through the standard battle phase where they can be countered. If their magic could do things no other unit could do, though, like hit more than one enemy at once, impose a status effect, bypass the enemy's counterattack regardless of range or hit way harder than most units can achieve with a normal attack, it wouldn't be as big of a gyp. I'm not sure exactly what a FE game with that setup would play like, but that aspect of Shining Force seemed to work alright to me.

(I guess I'm imagining that staves would be the equivalent of spells that can be cast with no cost but a more limited number of times, in this setup)

Also RE MIke on the nebulousness of the MP concept, in most RPGs that use it I've taken MP to mean less life force than "how much can I do before I'm tired sand have to recharge." Units that run out aren't so much wounded as exhausted, in this case. I do think using life force as the casting currency is a fine approach to take, though, as long as the story and gameplay aren't segregated there. I think you'd be right that a game which calls MP "life force" yet doesn't have anything unhealthy happen when somebody runs out of it is doing something suspect.

[Byte2222]

Like others who have posted before me, I must point out that FE2's casting from HP achieved much the same effect. As previous posters also observed, it works well to reinforce Mages' support role. Magic users in general were more clearly specialised in FE2 due to learning magic: Mages learned a range of attack spells and just 'heal' when the promoted whereas Clerics only learn the massively-inaccurate nosferatu and, on promotion, HP-costly angel to attack with, limiting their combat use. I digress, my point is that the system worked decently in FE2; there were also no healing items and few healing tiles so everyone was getting to know their team's healer and HP costs meant that Mages weren't excepted from this just because they kept away from sharp things. The cast-from-HP system achieved the same effect by saying 'only cast that expensive excalibur/aura spell if you know it's going to do the job, you'll be safe afterwards and you'll be supported soon, otherwise stick to simple spells, you probably do plenty of damage anyway'. On enemy phase Mages always used fire, which cost only 1HP, and they wouldn't cast it when they were at 1HP (though if they needed to they were probably pretty screwed anyway).

I don't like the idea of MP costs. I like that Mages use tomes like Mercenaries use swords, it makes magic seem less arcane and more practical. I like that Mages stand toe-to-toe with physical fighters on the battlefield, no special rules, just men/women and their respective arts. It brings the world of FE down-to-earth a little.

[deleted35362]

How often did that happen in FE1, or in general in the franchise's history? Honest question, I don't know much about how effective mages have really been over time.

Are you...serious? Have you touched a GBA FE game?

[Rehab]

Yeah. Who're you talking about?

Erk? lol, he's good but he's no monster that can take a map at a time with no support

Lucius? lol, same

Canas? lol, same

Pent? possibly, but I'd hardly say he's that much better than other developed units around the point he comes in

Lute? lol

Artur? lol

I don't see why any of those units are so overpowering as they are that they should pay HP to attack.

[Anouleth]

change is bad