The Lunatic Club

[Khainiwest]

Well this is my third time going through lunatic+, the first time I married chrom to sumia by accident, the second time I did a female avatar, wasn't happy with my pairing results, this time I'm maximizing my the potential of my kids.

The first time, took me a weekish to get through, with a magic+ asset
The second time took me about 2 frekin weeks with a def+ asset
The third time, I spent an entire day trying to get proper RNG with 3+ def/speed. Finally got it, and got to chapter 15 in a few hours.

But there is one thing that counter cannot beat, and that's a frekin sniper. People underrate this class so much, but Noire as a sniper was a better asset than her a nostank.

I'm also experimenting with a female morgan. I'm not sure if shadowgift or manakete would bring more advantages, but I have two files to compare the two.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Khainiwest

[Shadow Mir]

Despite how stupid L+ is I still like the idea of having it in the game. Too many games I see seem to give you all these powerful options, but never let you challenge yourself with them. Look at pokemon for an example. The first game only had opponents go up to level ~60 in game. In order to actually use lv 100 pokemon and still get a challenge was to face people in linked battles. It was completely pointless to allow you to go up to level 100 when you couldn't do anything with it other than click the A button to skip to the next attack as you KO'd lots of pokemon.

Well now, FE13 has all these stupid overpowered skills and stats and pair-ups, but what's the purpose it if the whole time you are not being challenged by it. So, having these skills put into lunatic really makes it a pain to progress. What would you rather have? Go through life with no struggle or make it a pain in the arse? Oddly enough, its those struggles that I think people actually enjoy most of all once they have experienced it. The satisfaction of getting through adversity is generally rewarding to many people.

Then again, I doubt Counter was added with that sort of philosophical reasoning for why to make it more challenging.

Honestly, Lunatic+ is a nice option to challenge your overpowered teams once you get the momentum.

However, Counter is the one BS bump (when the RNG makes it) that REALLY makes it an absolute pain. The other skills seemed not as... "unfair" even though they were unfair. You get what I mean?

They gave legitimate challenge even though the RNG could completely screw you over. Counter makes the RNG completely screw you over a majority of the time.

I'd honestly have a legit challenge rather than one that, in addition to being rife with fake difficulty, essentially shoehorns me into having to use the best units just to make it anything resembling bearable.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Quick]

I'd honestly have a legit challenge rather than one that, in addition to being rife with fake difficulty, essentially shoehorns me into having to use the best units just to make it anything resembling bearable.

Fake...difficulty? I am confused. The game really isn't that hard past chapter 4 (and depending on your playstyle chapter 5) and if you try you can use any character in the game, and the only units I am not sure if they're viable in Lunatic are Sully and Stahl. I've heard and/or used the rest of the units in Lunatic mode. As a matter of fact in my second Lunatic run I've been using Ricken a lot and he's been working surprisingly well, although I'm only on chapter 13 but I doubt he'll drop in usefulness when chapter 18+ comes along.

However I agree that Lunatic+ is a little unfair.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Quick

[arvilino]

Fake...difficulty? I am confused. The game really isn't that hard past chapter 4 (and depending on your playstyle chapter 5) and if you try you can use any character in the game, and the only units I am not sure if they're viable in Lunatic are Sully and Stahl. I've heard and/or used the rest of the units in Lunatic mode. As a matter of fact in my second Lunatic run I've been using Ricken a lot and he's been working surprisingly well, although I'm only on chapter 13 but I doubt he'll drop in usefulness when chapter 18+ comes along.

That's probably the case, I was able to use Henry without Nosferatu for the full length of the game(not exactly my best unit and was like ~15/7 Sorceror by the end of the game) on Lunatic, Sully as well but I sort of dropped her at 14 for Lucina but she probably would have kept up anyway(since Pair Ups and Rally skill boosts are enough to make anyone perform well).

The only ones that may not be viable are some of the children but even then they can inherit Rally Skills so they can be of non-combat use.

Edited April 19, 2013 by arvilino

[Redwall]

the only character you're forced to use in Lunatic is Frederick, and you can phase him out of the lead support slot pretty quickly if you've got a +HP or +Def Avatar. You don't need Avatar, Nowi, or Panne (ostensibly the other "best units" in a leisurely playthrough), as another user (XeKr) on the boards has confirmed. From what I understand, you can even beat Grima without using the Falchion on him, though it requires some ridiculous luck.

[XeKr]

I actually think one of the better things about this game is that every character is usable, and often uniquely useful.

Of course some are way better than others, particularly in optimized, LTC-like, play, but nearly everyone can be really strong combatwise (through early reclassing) or act as support utility, whether through Pair Up, Rally, Staves, etc and often can be both depending on how you want to use them. For example, I often use Sully as a Paladin pair up for Sully!Lucina, but if reclassed to Wyvern instead, she's an incredible fighter as well.

The children legitimately have way more potential in the long term, and can easily surpass parents with just a little babying. This is most apparent in runs like no Second Seal, where the parents have little lategame potential.

Also, I still maintain that Chapter 2 is the only really reset heavy chapter in Lunatic+. And it's technically easy and quick to brute force with the appropriate strategy. Pretty much every other chapter can be reliably done no matter the skill distribution, particularly if using stuff like Nosferatu. My main issue with L+ stems from how wildly the difficulty can change often a direct function of the abundance of Counter enemies (as well as the Luna+Hawkeye combo earlygame). As well as how tedious I personally find it to check the skills on every enemy every single attempt on every map. Plus, reinforcements will still really troll you unless you've memorized them.

Edited April 19, 2013 by XeKr

[Redwall]

Also, I still maintain that Chapter 2 is the only really reset heavy chapter in Lunatic+. And it's technically easy and quick to brute force with the appropriate strategy. Pretty much every other chapter can be reliably done no matter the skill distribution, particularly if using stuff like Nosferatu.

wait, what's the magic secret for Chapter 5? If I had to try it again, I'd probably send Fred and Sumia up to the middle deck immediately and take out the Dark Mage, and send everyone else up the right, but the problem with this is that Pavise+ and/or Aegis+ can slow down the rest of the team while they try to take out the Myrm and Barbarian. Also Counter can totally mess up Fred.

[XeKr]

You can have level 20ish Avatar by then, possibly higher if promoted from Anna shops or reclassed from Renown/Anna shops (no excuse for Renown, as Lunatic has to be beaten to get Lunatic+, so you certainly have access to the Second Seal. Moreover, Seals are super common from Anna at the early chapters.). If reclassed, Nosferatu is buyable from Spotpass if you want, or Avatar is probably statistically overwhelming enough already.

I haven't tried a run with similar restrictions as I typically do for Lunatic, and have no intention to. >_>

Edited April 19, 2013 by XeKr

[Redwall]

Yeah, I guess my biggest mistake the last time I played through L+ was that I didn't feed enough kills to Avatar; she was like Lv 13 after having completed Chapter 4 and Paralogue 1, and she was also RNG-screwed in everything besides Spd (notably, she only gained two points of Def from base). Seeing you all talk about L+ makes me want to give it another shot -- I'm thinking of allowing Renown awards up to however many Renown points correspond to a completed standard Lunatic playthrough, while banning the use of non-deterministic, high-variance things like Anna shops and event-tile weapons.

[XeKr]

I do agree with Interceptor (and others) in that Lunatic+ has some nice moments that can require some creative tactics. It's a lot less steamroll-y in that way.

However, it also can require quite a bit of patience to check every enemies' skills and come up with an appropriate strategy for the specific distribution in that chapter. And that comes with a high degree of frustration if you make a small mistake. I do see how it can appeal to some players, however.

Many times in regular Lunatic any mistakes can be easily covered by Rescue spam, which meshes better with my usual cruise-control strategy. >_>

Also, I guess I'll mention there's always the annoying temptation of "oh, I could just reset", instead of sitting there and figuring out how to deal with a particularly nasty combination.

Edited April 20, 2013 by XeKr

[Florete]

I'd honestly have a legit challenge rather than one that, in addition to being rife with fake difficulty, essentially shoehorns me into having to use the best units just to make it anything resembling bearable.

Not to sound annoyed or rude, but are you going to say anything in these topics that isn't expressing your dislike for Lunatic and Lunatic+? Some people actually like these difficulties.

And I think it's been shown that your pre-conceived notions of Lunatic, based on God knows what, are false. It is (mostly) not fake difficulty and you aren't forced to use anyone.

Fake...difficulty? I am confused. The game really isn't that hard past chapter 4 (and depending on your playstyle chapter 5) and if you try you can use any character in the game, and the only units I am not sure if they're viable in Lunatic are Sully and Stahl. I've heard and/or used the rest of the units in Lunatic mode. As a matter of fact in my second Lunatic run I've been using Ricken a lot and he's been working surprisingly well, although I'm only on chapter 13 but I doubt he'll drop in usefulness when chapter 18+ comes along.

However I agree that Lunatic+ is a little unfair.

Stahl has never turned out well for me, but Sully is amazing.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Lunatic+ idea of randomized skill pools is generally its biggest problem

Outside that, the first few chapters of Lunatic is pretty cool, and I kinda liked a mode where you are forced to use a Jeigan that will fall later on ALA FE6

[Faye]

Haha, Limit Breaker has turned Lunatic into a cakewalk. |D I'm on Chapter 19, but I'm taking care fo Tiki's Paralogue, and I'm laughing as the enemies break themselves on me trying to get to Tiki.

Will grinding make Lunatic+ this fun? D: Lunatic is still rather tricky, but Limit Break + Level Grinding has allowed me to enjoy it quite a bit, keeping me on my toes without all the frustration. What does Lunatic+ have that makes Lunatic look loleasy, besides the randomized skills? I wanna know what to be prepared for and if I should consider tackling Lunatic+ Casual once I finish Lunatic/Casual.

[Shadow Mir]

Haha, Limit Breaker has turned Lunatic into a cakewalk. |D I'm on Chapter 19, but I'm taking care fo Tiki's Paralogue, and I'm laughing as the enemies break themselves on me trying to get to Tiki.

Will grinding make Lunatic+ this fun? D: Lunatic is still rather tricky, but Limit Break + Level Grinding has allowed me to enjoy it quite a bit, keeping me on my toes without all the frustration. What does Lunatic+ have that makes Lunatic look loleasy, besides the randomized skills? I wanna know what to be prepared for and if I should consider tackling Lunatic+ Casual once I finish Lunatic/Casual.

From what I read, enemies in Lunatic+ might have maxed stats near the end of the game? iono.

[euklyd]

Haha, Limit Breaker has turned Lunatic into a cakewalk. |D I'm on Chapter 19, but I'm taking care fo Tiki's Paralogue, and I'm laughing as the enemies break themselves on me trying to get to Tiki.

Will grinding make Lunatic+ this fun? D: Lunatic is still rather tricky, but Limit Break + Level Grinding has allowed me to enjoy it quite a bit, keeping me on my toes without all the frustration. What does Lunatic+ have that makes Lunatic look loleasy, besides the randomized skills? I wanna know what to be prepared for and if I should consider tackling Lunatic+ Casual once I finish Lunatic/Casual.

Does it need anything besides the skills? I would think that they alone would be more than enough to make vanilla Lunatic look loleasy.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

From what I read, enemies in Lunatic+ might have maxed stats near the end of the game? iono.

From what I can recall, there's no difference in stats or gear between Lunatic and Lunatic+.

[Shadow Mir]

From what I can recall, there's no difference in stats or gear between Lunatic and Lunatic+.

So it's just those skills then... though those are more than enough to make the difference, I'd say.

[euklyd]

From what I can recall, there's no difference in stats or gear between Lunatic and Lunatic+.

I could have sworn someone said something earlier about the last few chapters in Lunatic+ have higher enemy stats. But the wiki certainly doesn't have a Luna+ tab for the enemy data, so I guess I'm wrong.

[Othin]

I could have sworn someone said something earlier about the last few chapters in Lunatic+ have higher enemy stats. But the wiki certainly doesn't have a Luna+ tab for the enemy data, so I guess I'm wrong.

Someone said that, but they provided no data backing them up, so it's a safe bet that they were mistaken.

That said, the wiki is managed by humans. It's not conclusive evidence about parts of the game editors haven't thoroughly investigated.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Someone said that, but they provided no data backing them up, so it's a safe bet that they were mistaken.

That said, the wiki is managed by humans. It's not conclusive evidence about parts of the game editors haven't thoroughly investigated.

Well, I booted up my Endgame Lunatic+ save and compared the stats. Assuming the wiki's Lunatic stats are accurate, they're all the same.

[euklyd]

Haha, Limit Breaker has turned Lunatic into a cakewalk. |D I'm on Chapter 19, but I'm taking care fo Tiki's Paralogue, and I'm laughing as the enemies break themselves on me trying to get to Tiki.

-snip-

Ha. Limit Break is fun, and it does seem to make Lunatic trivial. I only got it in the postgame, but after capping all of Avatar's stats as a Dread Fighter, and all of Chrom's but Mag and Res, I went back to the Endgame and curb-stomped Grima with just those two, wielding a Book of Naga and Falchion it's too bad the Book of Naga is not bonus damage on dark dragons.

It felt really good.

Also, the contrast between Chrom in his gleaming white/silver armor and Avatar in black/grey with a crackling red aura is gorgeous. But that might just be my tastes speaking.

[darkkfan]

Also, I still maintain that Chapter 2 is the only really reset heavy chapter in Lunatic+.

I call BS.

Unless you're talking about if you use grinding/spotpass/bonus box, in which case, carry on.

Edit: This makes me think that you probably were talking about the latter, so never mind.

I haven't tried a run with similar restrictions as I typically do for Lunatic, and have no intention to. >_>

Yeah, I guess my biggest mistake the last time I played through L+ was that I didn't feed enough kills to Avatar; she was like Lv 13 after having completed Chapter 4 and Paralogue 1, and she was also RNG-screwed in everything besides Spd (notably, she only gained two points of Def from base).

This is basically what happened/is happening to me. Apparently, an overused avatar sorta trivializes the game even without grinding, but I like to think of it more as a means of preserving the challenge than as a "mistake," but then again that's just something I tell myself so you can make what you will of it.

Seeing you all talk about L+ makes me want to give it another shot -- I'm thinking of allowing Renown awards up to however many Renown points correspond to a completed standard Lunatic playthrough, while banning the use of non-deterministic, high-variance things like Anna shops and event-tile weapons.

Did you end up finishing the Luna+ no grind run? I think you said you were doing one of those, I'm not totally sure if I am remembering correctly. It seems like I've asked that question so many times to so many people yet I'm still out of the loop on who is doing/who has completed Luna+ no grind runs.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Walhart

[Redwall]

I stopped at Ch 5; I might have had an easier time if Avatar had more levels, but even then she hardly would have been an i-win button (mostly because of Counter). I hadn't been using any event-tile weapons before that, but the only worthwhile item I got was a Catharsis, which didn't make much of a difference. I might start a new file at some point.

[darkkfan]

I stopped at Ch 5; I might have had an easier time if Avatar had more levels, but even then she hardly would have been an i-win button (mostly because of Counter).

I suppose that's true, but then again that'd be true of anyone, no matter how powerful they were. I guess that's the good (read bad) thing about Luna+.

Did you beat CH.5? Because, if so, it does get easier from there, at least as far as I've gotten (I have a feeling that Tenshi would agree with this, but I don't want to speak for him).

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

I suppose that's true, but then again that'd be true of anyone, no matter how powerful they were. I guess that's the good (read bad) thing about Luna+.

Did you beat CH.5? Because, if so, it does get easier from there, at least as far as I've gotten (I have a feeling that Tenshi would agree with this, but I don't want to speak for him).

It does get easier. Chapter 5 was easily the hardest chapter for me. Difficulty starts to fall off until chapter 12, where it spikes again, although is still quite a bit easier than chapter 5. Then it kind of levels off until chapter 16, which can get really ridiculous without a boss rush. Chapter 19 is probably the last real sticky chapter in the run, although with just one's best pair and a good amount of patience for resets, I imagine a Walhart rush would be feasible.

Avatar does make things easier and due to Veteran, is the best candidate for the sort of main tank type of power unit that makes things safer for the rest of the team. However, this can work for almost any unit that gets over-leveled. It just takes more time for other units to get that kind of start-up (unless you're Avatar!Lucina or Morgan, in which case you'll actually have even less start-up time than mommy or daddy dearest with only the late-ish join time kind of holding you back).