So why was Thracia 776 even made?

[ZemZem]

So is the argument here that FE4 maps are huge and mounts are OP, ergo making the foot units useless, but Shanan is good DESPITE being a foot unit and is worth using with Seliph/Aless/Leif/Phee/Delmud? So is he being dragged around for each chapter, which would take longer than just going without him?

[Constable Reggie]

The argument (again..) is that Fe4 is able to be beaten relatively easily because of the several units able to destroy everything with no investment. It doesn't matter if you think Shanan is subjectively good or not, he still has the ability to klll everything with little risk, and again, this required no investment from the player. Just to emphasize so you guys don't miss the most important point that I've emphasized time and time again, with no prior investment.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[ZemZem]

The argument (again..) is that Fe4 is able to be beaten relatively easily because of the several units able to destroy everything with no investment. It doesn't matter if you think Shanan is subjectively good or not, he still has the ability to klll everything with little risk, and again, this required no investment from the player. Just to emphasize so you guys don't miss the most important point that I've emphasized time and time again, with no prior investment.

You're completely right. Shanan's combat is pretty damn amazing, and the Balmung makes him nigh untouchable. But he just can't keep up with the rest of your party, which hurts his performance.

[GreatEclipse]

It only hurts his performance relative to units that are even more stupidly over-powered. In almost any other FE game, he would be even more obviously broken, it's just that some are even worse because they also have high movement.

Edited February 16, 2013 by GreatEclipse

[charlie_]

I maintain that the game is incentive enough to not use all your units because screw moving them all.

I forget about around half of my army most of the time.

[Chiki]

You've done nothing to refute the claim that Fe4 is an easy game.

So Shanan's statistics are overkill in an easy game.

You've done nothing to refute the claim that Shanan has the ability to destroy almost everything with no major risk from the start of his recruitment (how fast he can do this is irrelevant), and that him and a bunch of other similar units are obscenely powerful from the start.

...Therefore Shanan isn't unique.

Therefore Shanan is nothing special compared to other units ON HORSES.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

All you've done while in here is promote your style of play, while ignoring the fact that Fe4 is easily beatable (again, how fast it's beatable is irrelevant) due to these investment-free units.

So what if it's easily beatable? That doesn't measure how good a unit is.

Can someone tell me why we should prefer to unit A who is as overpowered as unit B except unit B is on a horse?

Edited February 16, 2013 by Olwen

[GreatEclipse]

I forget about around half of my army most of the time.

This, too, only makes his point stronger. The game lets you use everyone on every map, but some are so much better than others that it's not worth taking the time to use around half of them. This focus an Shanan is unnecessary, though, since I could at least understand the idea behind giving the player a character who destroys everything effortlessly but is doomed to fall behind when playing for low turns. How about Aless, then? Is anyone prepared to say that he is not a stupidly overpowered character, certainly compared to the zero effort you need to put in to get him?

Edited February 16, 2013 by GreatEclipse

[ZemZem]

It only hurts his performance relative to units that are even more stupidly over-powered. In almost any other FE game, he would be even more obviously broken, it's just that some are even worse because they also have high movement.

But we're not talking about Shanan's performance if he were in FE7, FE9 (he'd still be outshined, like how Stefan is), or any other FE. We're talking about his performance in FE4, which is really good combat wise, but overall isn't amazing because the mounts trivialize the game by themselves.

This topic is heavily derailed. If someone could make a new topic about Shanan vs. Mounts, I'd gladly take part in it.

[Constable Reggie]

@Olwen: why can't you comprehend that I don't give a shit about whether you think Shanan is good or not. It does not suddenly eliminate him being invincibly powerful with no prior investment (something you've ignored this entire time) whatsoever. It's because of units like him and Sigurd that make the game easy. Putting investment into children characters like Delmud and Leaf only make the game easier (but you have to actually do work in order to get to that point). Why are you trying to turn the original point into another "character assessment" argument? You're not even trying to debate any substantial argument I'm trying to make, you're just nitpicking at little shit.

[Chiki]

@Olwen: why can't you comprehend that I don't give a shit about whether you think Shanan is good or not.

Then why reply?

The rest of your post isn't even responding to anything I said beforehand, so I'll leave it at that.

[Integrity]

I don't even understand what this argument is about, but I'm pretty sure it's turned into a derail by now, so yeah.

EDIT: that means refresh me on why it's relevant or take it elsewhere

Edited February 16, 2013 by Integrity

[Constable Reggie]

Because you tried to refute my argument, then afterwards you basically devolved into a semantic and ltc crusade mess. You're right, your posts have almost no value whatsoever, so I shouldn't have responded to them in the first place. I apologize for assuming you would have written something of actual value.

tl:dr Fe4's an easy game and I feel Fe5 was totally justified in being made to fix some of the problems of Fe4 and expand on it's great (but horribly lacking) story.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[GreatEclipse]

But we're not talking about Shanan's performance if he were in FE7, FE9 (he'd still be outshined, like how Stefan is), or any other FE. We're talking about his performance in FE4, which is really good combat wise, but overall isn't amazing because the mounts trivialize the game by themselves.

This topic is heavily derailed. If someone could make a new topic about Shanan vs. Mounts, I'd gladly take part in it.

The discussion is more about FE4 as a game vs. FE5, with character balance at the center. Feels appropriate enough for me.

If the Vague Katti could only be used by Stephen and gave him +30 MT and +20 SPD, and not only had 50 uses but could even be repaired in between chapters, he would not be overshadowed by very many. In fact, he would still be less broken than Shanan, because his recruitment is so obscure most players will finish never knowing he even exists.

[riariadne]

FE5 was made for the same reason as every other video game, to make money.

[Rehab]

I've never completed Thracia because the last time I got the translation patch to work, my hard drive hadn't yet pulled a Jesus, and I'm one of those assholes that have to know what the story is going on about at all times, indeed may even partially play every game for its story, without having to simultaneously hold up a script in another window. You win this time zsnes........

[Jotari]

FE5 was made for the same reason as every other video game, to make money.

To reply to something I can actually have some input in here (ie the original topic), that's what I find strange. It was released so far into the SNES life span (two years before the GameCube was released!) that it seems like the chances of it actually making any money at all were slim at best.

[Tamanoir]

I... don't undertand anything anymore. Why are we even talking about how good Shanan is ?

Can we just at least agree that he is usefull in Chapter 7 when he appears (cause Patty wouldn't make it alone...)?

ALso, I do agree with CR that the mechanics works well with the atmosphere of the game. He has great qualities, and more or less big problems (Mainly, Dismounting is broken in a bad way, which is link with Sword overabundance, and Lance being basically absent indoor, Weapons ranks taking forever to complete, and relatively scarce magic equipement)

Then, you just have ro decide if the good points are more important than the bad points or not.

I personally think that FE5 is a pretty good game, but too frustrating to really like it.

EDIT : Yes, FE5 being made is really a mistery...

Was FE really famous in Japan, because the others example in this case (FE6Advance, and Pokemon BW2 are the ones that come to mind) were really famous title, that were sure to sell a lot

Edited February 16, 2013 by TendaSlime

[Constable Reggie]

I wouldn't be surprised if Kaga intended to make Thracia his final, explosive project for Nintendo, but he didn't want to spend too much time just making a new engine for an N64 version.

[Paperblade]

you're not allowed to complain about how long it takes to move units across the map and then promote the use of a unit that takes more time to move across a map

It doesn't matter how many units I'm using because I'm invariably spending more time running units across the map than actually fighting enemies, be it because I'm using just Sigurd and he spends one turn killing everything on enemy phase while I hold down the turbo button then I get to spend a few minutes moving him to the next batch of enemies, or because I'm using like 20 guys and I spend 15 minutes moving them across the map and then 5 minutes on a single player phase actually killing enemies.

Also, an alternative to LTC: http://serenesforest.net/fe4/rank.html

[Djeets]

perhaps since FE4 main goal in the game is very simple (march! my units. Enemies attacks and defending the castle, Charge and conquer the castle!), they decided to make thracia 776 which was more challenging and more overwhelming. I mean, FE4 is not a bad game, but the gameplay is just way too straight headed.

My point is, perhaps they decided to make a more challenging game which would entertain the players more. Thracia 776 is after all the best FE game in terms of giving pressure and the situation "when you are in battlefield and war" to players. (at least in my experience).

[shadykid]

FE5 was made for the same reason as every other video game, to make money.

then they put it on SNES 3 years after the N64 came out

whoops

[Refa]

that was almost as bad a decision as it would be to actually release it on the N64

[Icon of Sin]

Plenty of games get released long after a console successor hits the market. Look at Kirby's Adventure released in March 1993 for the NES for example. It pushed the console to its limits and was very well liked by both the audience and reviewers. And I'm not even touching the Sony consoles yet.

[Kysafen]

[Ike-Mike]

Super Famicom was still alive and kicking in Japan until the 2000s, even moreso than the N64 over there, in fact.

Nintendo Power cartridges were released in 1997 at that.