The Brand (minor spoilers?)

[Saria]

Well, by manipulating a glitch you can have either of them hold the Balmung, and they can indeed use it if they have Major Odo.

I know dialogue from Thraccia mention Galzus and Mareeta have the markings of Odo, but is the marking really a sign of having Major Blood? From what I remember of the conversation, the only thing mentioned regarding the markings was that they were related to the Isaacian Royal Family, not regarding if they could wield or not Balmung.

But outside of manipulating glitches and having Holyn be their father, any other time it's limited to Shanan. But there's possibly more than one major blood carrier in two of their generations...

I think it would, given how Jurgdal seems to be working, and also with Leif's new DLC in Awakening mentioning he never had the brand but Altenna did. At least when you take into consideration how FE4's game mechanics work, in that you have to have a character with major blood in order to wield their respective weapons. It's possible that neither Galzus or Mareeta even tries to wield Balmung, since Shanan is it's default wielder..

I think I want to give up understanding their bloodline, it's breaking the perceived normal workings of the others, ha.

[Just call me AL]

I do remember Deirdre being mentioned by her paternal grandfather to have the Brand of Naga on her forehead. Whether her mark looks like the mark that's seen on Chrom's family is another story altogether.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Little Al

[PuffPuff]

R is dominate, r is recessive. So this parent has a 75% chance of passing the dominate gene for the mark of Naga to a child. But the OTHER parent lacks the mark at all, meaning they can't possibly pass it on at all, so this leaves it at a solid 50% chance that they will have a child bearing the mark. Now if BOTH parents had a mark, which is likely impossible, they'd both carry the dominate gene, and always have a child with the mark.

Chrom and Emmeryn are Rr since they obviously have the mark and only one of their parents can pass on the dominate gene. Lissa doesn't, so she is rr and inherited the recessive gene rather than the dominate one.

This all applies to the Branded in Tellius as well. It's really basic genetics, actually.

Right.

It entirely works by the child being born at the side of the family that has it!

[Sartek]

I know dialogue from Thraccia mention Galzus and Mareeta have the markings of Odo, but is the marking really a sign of having Major Blood? From what I remember of the conversation, the only thing mentioned regarding the markings was that they were related to the Isaacian Royal Family, not regarding if they could wield or not Balmung.

In FE5, Eyvel try to prove to Finn that she's not Briggid by claiming she doesn't have the mark of Ulir, and Saias grandfather says that neither Julius nor Julia have the mark of Fala, but Saias does. It hints that mark = major blood.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Sartek

[Agro]

Genes can also skip generations, you know. Lissa may be rr and not have the mark, but she's still a carrier of the actual gene for the mark of Naga can have a child with the mark, as you say. It's just not as likely for her to have a child with the mark as it is for Chrom or Emmeryn, so Owain is a rarer case.

It's like how I wear glasses, yet neither of my parents do, but my grandmother does. A trait of having to wear glasses showed up in me, but not my mother, my grandma's daughter.

I'm not exactly sure how genes skipping generations works, though. It's been awhile since I last studied this stuff. I also edited my post because I later realized that in order for Chrom or Emmeryn to be RR, both parents would have to pass the dominate gene, and that's not possible. lol my bad.

You're wrong, either way. First of all, if R is the dominant trait and Lissa is rr, it is literally impossible for her children to inherit the mark unless she has children with someone who does have the mark, like Chrom. Since Owain is not Chrom's child and none of her suitors have the mark, it cannot be represented by R. For it to skip a generation means it must be at least a recessive trait. However, for the mark to continually show up in each successive generation, someone will have had to have children with someone who was a heterozygote (Rr) which is extremely unlikely. The Mark being recessive would encourage marrying within the family which is... kind of creepy, I guess. The only way Lissa can be a "carrier" of the Mark is if it's an X-linked recessive trait. This would make the most sense, but then for a daughter to have the Mark would mean that the father must have the Mark as well. This also means that if any sons are born without the Mark, and no extended relatives are carriers or have the Mark, the Mark would die out. This would be fairly likely to happen over the course of 1000 years. This is all assuming that the Mark is a discontinuous trait; however, from what I just explained, it's not. Since the Mark only appears or doesn't appear (there are no inbetweens) it cannot be a continuous trait, either.

In other words, we can't use real-life genetics to solve the problem.

By the way, your glasses analogy doesn't work in this case either, since myopia (short-sightedness) is not a discontinuous trait. It comes from a mix of factors such as reading too much (yes, that is actually a thing), bad genetics, etc.

If anything, it makes the most sense for the Mark to be a continuous trait, which might help to explain the huge variability in conditions that lead to having the Mark and also explains how two Minorbloods can produce a Majorblood--it would be like having two reasonably tall people having a very tall child. If it were so, then the Mark would only appear on someone who was "suitable" as a host for their respective dragon.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Agro

[shadykid]

genetics stuff

tl;dr version: real life doesn't apply to video games

anyway, imagine if this game had the FE4 holy blood system

Avatar with major.....Grima blood? (lol)

[Anacybele]

You're wrong, either way. First of all, if R is the dominant trait and Lissa is rr, it is literally impossible for her children to inherit the mark unless she has children with someone who does have the mark, like Chrom. Since Owain is not Chrom's child and none of her suitors have the mark, it cannot be represented by R. For it to skip a generation means it must be at least a recessive trait. However, for the mark to continually show up in each successive generation, someone will have had to have children with someone who was a heterozygote (Rr) which is extremely unlikely. The Mark being recessive would encourage marrying within the family which is... kind of creepy, I guess. The only way Lissa can be a "carrier" of the Mark is if it's an X-linked recessive trait. This would make the most sense, but then for a daughter to have the Mark would mean that the father must have the Mark as well. This also means that if any sons are born without the Mark, and no extended relatives are carriers or have the Mark, the Mark would die out. This would be fairly likely to happen over the course of 1000 years. This is all assuming that the Mark is a discontinuous trait; however, from what I just explained, it's not. Since the Mark only appears or doesn't appear (there are no inbetweens) it cannot be a continuous trait, either.

In other words, we can't use real-life genetics to solve the problem.

Oh, well, my mistake then. I just thought I'd try to help... You don't have to make me look stupid and be so harsh about it.

By the way, your glasses analogy doesn't work in this case either, since myopia (short-sightedness) is not a discontinuous trait. It comes from a mix of factors such as reading too much (yes, that is actually a thing), bad genetics, etc.

Interesting. Except one thing. I'm not myopic. I wear glasses for farsightedness as well as due to my eyes being able to cross. ;P

Edited February 26, 2013 by Anacybele

[Agro]

My apologies, I didn't mean to come across as harsh

Interesting. Except one thing. I'm not myopic. I wear glasses for farsightedness as well as due to my eyes being able to cross. ;P

So you wear glasses for reading, then? Out of curiosity, how do your eyes handle the 3D on the 3DS?

[VincentASM]

I know dialogue from Thraccia mention Galzus and Mareeta have the markings of Odo, but is the marking really a sign of having Major Blood? From what I remember of the conversation, the only thing mentioned regarding the markings was that they were related to the Isaacian Royal Family, not regarding if they could wield or not Balmung.

Besides what Sartek mentioned, Kaga mentioned this for FE4:

[spoiler=Quote]

Q: How is it possible to distinguish those who can wield holy weapons?

A: A mark known as a "holy marking" surfaces on their bodies, which is the proof of forming a blood pact with the dragon tribe. Although, the time of appearance of the holy markings differs wildly for each person, sometimes appearing during their youth or even when they're in their old age. Additionally, it doesn't matter if the person is the eldest child or if they're male, there is no rule, so often there are occasions where the direct family has no successors of the holy weapons. For instance, the Nodion Royal Family are all branch descendants of Black Knight Hezul (the direct descendants are the Agusty Royal Family), but they are the sole inheritors of the pact-forming blood (of Hezul who formed a patch with the dragon tribe) that allows them to wield Mistolteen.

Edited February 26, 2013 by VincentASM

[Renall]

I find that odd if it only responds to Major blood though, because I always figured the reason people believed Seliph's claim to the throne is because he could prove it through a Naga marking. But Seliph only has Minor Naga, so all he'd have been able to prove is that he's Sigurd's son. But it wasn't really being Sigurd's son that was the point; it was being Deirdre's son. Couldn't Arvis have just been like "Yeah that dude's faking it, he never married my wife?"

[BrightBow]

I don't think so. I would say that it's just an element that IS likes to reuse.

Like how there is always a Fire Emblem related to those blood pacts and yet it has different purposes, serving as a prison for a powerful being in most cases while it's merely a key of sorts in Elibe. So it can't really be the same kind of object.

And IS loves marks so much that Telius alone has already two of these kind of marks. And both are totally unrelated to each other.

I am talking about the mark of branded and the mark caused by the blood pact.

While the mark of the branded is inherited by blood, the mark from the misleading named Blood Pact doesn't actually work that way. Otherwise Micaiah wouldn't have inherited it from Pelleas after his death. (Extended script and unused CG in the Sound Test)

Besides, according to Telius' rules, the Laguz parent will always loose it's powers. If those rules would have applied to Narga, he would have run out of fangs to forge swords with a long time ago.

And everyone with Laguz blood ages slower, with the effect varying depending on the species. There is nothing that indicates that this applies to anyone outside of Telius. Especially in Jugdral.

The war in Jugdral was over for a mere hundred years before the games. How many generations of slow-aging humans could possibly have fit in there?

The known parents of Sigurd's generation looked already very old.

Edited February 26, 2013 by BrightBow

[BlueLeafeon]

There's a term for Owain coming up with the Brand. It's called a throwback.

And it's commonly used throughout many video games. In Star Ocean: Second Story, Leon possesses cat-like ears while his parents are perfectly normal. In a certain conversation in the later game, it's explained that it's a "throwback."

Edited February 26, 2013 by MagicLeafy

[Murdok Dracul]

The primary similarity seems to be that these (the Brand, the Blood Pact, the Mark of the Exalt and the Holy Marking) are marks that come about due to an unusual bond between two concious beings, and which can be inherited by others. The effects on the bearers that these marks signify differ depending on the circumstances of the origin.

That's the greatest connection between all of them that I can come up with. They can't reasonably all be the same thing, but I wouldn't like to say that they're simply disconnected repetitions of a theme, because I like to think that all the games have taken place in the same world. The marks in Ylisse and Jugdral are clearly related though.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Murdok Dracul

[Silver Lightning]

I would like to submit that Tellius had not only 2, but 3 marks of proof of some nature; I believe that we are forgetting to mention the Spirit Pact, a pact between a magic practitioner and a spirit. Its not really an inherited mark of any kind, but its similar enough to the marks of the Branded that they used it to hide the fact that they had Laguz ancestry. IS seems to have a fun time with all these marks but Tellius is just full of them (and is it just me, or do the members of the Laguz Dragon Tribe have random unexplained markings/symbols on their foreheads?)...

[Acacia Sgt]

I would like to submit that Tellius had not only 2, but 3 marks of proof of some nature; I believe that we are forgetting to mention the Spirit Pact, a pact between a magic practitioner and a spirit. Its not really an inherited mark of any kind, but its similar enough to the marks of the Branded that they used it to hide the fact that they had Laguz ancestry. IS seems to have a fun time with all these marks but Tellius is just full of them (and is it just me, or do the members of the Laguz Dragon Tribe have random unexplained markings/symbols on their foreheads?)...

Now that you mention it... what sort of mark would that be of? To me it kinda looks like a telling mark. I mean, other than the pointy ears, it's pretty much the only other thing you can use to tell they are Laguz at a mere glance. The beasts have their ears and tails, and the birds have their wings and pointy ears, but the dragons? Just the pointy ears and those markings.

[Onestep]

I don't see any real relation. People with Holy Blood aren't actually biologically related to their Pacted being and don't exhibit enhanced lifespan like the Branded do.

If anything, Holy Blood seems to share more links to Spirit Charmers, given that it's a mark formed via a close, spiritual connection to a mystical being.

[catastrophe_2]

You're wrong, either way. First of all, if R is the dominant trait and Lissa is rr, it is literally impossible for her children to inherit the mark unless she has children with someone who does have the mark, like Chrom. Since Owain is not Chrom's child and none of her suitors have the mark, it cannot be represented by R. For it to skip a generation means it must be at least a recessive trait. However, for the mark to continually show up in each successive generation, someone will have had to have children with someone who was a heterozygote (Rr) which is extremely unlikely. The Mark being recessive would encourage marrying within the family which is... kind of creepy, I guess. The only way Lissa can be a "carrier" of the Mark is if it's an X-linked recessive trait. This would make the most sense, but then for a daughter to have the Mark would mean that the father must have the Mark as well. This also means that if any sons are born without the Mark, and no extended relatives are carriers or have the Mark, the Mark would die out. This would be fairly likely to happen over the course of 1000 years. This is all assuming that the Mark is a discontinuous trait; however, from what I just explained, it's not. Since the Mark only appears or doesn't appear (there are no inbetweens) it cannot be a continuous trait, either.

In other words, we can't use real-life genetics to solve the problem.

Actually, Brand inheritance might be a complex trait, and not a simple trait like you guys are considering. Complex traits are usually the product of two or more genes interacting together, with sometimes environmental inputs added in. Traits that are affected by multiple genes include human skin tone or animal fur color (even more complicated when you factor in albinism). For example:

Let's consider 2 genes, A and B.

Gene A is the Brand gene, it codes for the shape/color/whatever of the Brand. Genotype "A" means that you have a Brand, genotype "a" means no brand.

Gene B allows for the expression of the Brand on the skin. Genotype "B" means that you can express your Brand, while genotype "b" means that, even if you do do have the genetic information to have a brand, your body cannot actually express it (usually because Gene B codes for a protein/enzyme/structure that is required in the Gene A expression pathway).

In this example, Lissa can be Ab (since she's part of the royal family and all that, so she should be genotype A), but does cannot express her brand due to her b genotype. If Owain inherits genotype B from his father and his mother's A, he'll have the brand.

Note that gene products can have multiple roles in the human body, so Gene B/b might also be linked to something completely random like lactose tolerance and whatnot.

If Brand inheritance is indeed a complex trait, the only way we could determine what actually causes the brand involves a lot of data from multiple people (1000-ish IIRC) and lots and lots of computing to find possible correlations. And even then, we might find absolutely jack since the search for such correlations is basically just a trial and error process.

Of course, this is all assuming that the factors behind Brand inheritance are purely genetic. It becomes even more of a clusterfuck when you add in environmental factors, like it is the case for IQ and height.

Summary: Genetics are very complicated.

[Lanko]

Mayba Lissa's branding is in a place she can't see and was scared to ask someone to see for her and what could happen if they didn't see it, even Chrom doesn't know.

Or it is in a very intimate place...

Edited February 27, 2013 by Lanko

[Integrity]

We're talking about a game where a given kid gets their entire hair color exclusively from their dad.

[Fëanen]

With the hair spectrum in FE being so broad, I'd hate to think of the genetics involved. Though I still want to know where Lester gets blue hair!

I'm nmot sure the difference between Jugdral (usually 1 inheritor per generation) and Ylisse is really that different. Genealogy takes place a mere century after the blood pacts, whereas with Ylisse it's been much longer. That'd give the bloodline ample time to mix and thus produce multiple inheritors per generation, just like how Larcei and Ulster (still gotta get used to the names) can both have Major Odo. Especially considering we're talking about royal lines.

There may be a spiritual/magical component to it that goes beyond genetics anyway. In which case anything goes, I guess.

[Anacybele]

So you wear glasses for reading, then? Out of curiosity, how do your eyes handle the 3D on the 3DS?

Basically. Though I wear them all the time out of habit. As for how well I can see the 3D, I can see it just fine, with or without glasses.

And what catastrophe says makes enough sense to me. Genetics is the only thing I can think of for how brand inheriting works at all.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Anacybele

[Crixler]

So, that mark on Walhart's forehead... Could be a tattoo. Or it could be a brand.

He does seem to have superhuman power.

[Book of Ereshkigal]

We're talking about a game where a given kid gets their entire hair color exclusively from their dad.

Female Morgan is sad :C

[Integrity]

Female Morgan is sad :C

She's not the one who's sad, mate. I'm sad because her hair didn't come out lovely lavender like her sister Cynthia's.

[HK Motendra]

Funny, I was about to start a topic just like this. Looks like you all beat me to the punch for all the things I wanted to say, except for one. If wielding Falchion in the Exalted bloodline requires the brand, then why was Marth able to wield it, seeing as how his time had no marks whatsoever and the fact that he's indirectly descended from Anri? Or is Falchion just extremely selective of its user? For all we know, Owain could be able to use it without anyone knowing (although its highly unlikely)

EDIT: Fun fact: out of all of Lucina's possible siblings, Inigo is the only one that had the Brand of The Exalt. It's in his right eye, yet he can't wield it

[spoiler=Sibling Supports]Although in the A support, it's shown that he and the other possible siblings are chosen to wield it, but is never allowed within the game

Edited July 9, 2013 by HeroKingMarth