FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[aku chi]

We're thinking about it. Interceptor and I want to take a look at how feasible your levelling for Sully is, and how well it works out if she doesn't get the Second Seal, since promotion kinda hurts EXP gain a lot.

• Keeping discussion in this thread would promote inclusivity.
  
• A level 8 Sully when Panne joins seems like a lower limit if we're reasonably using Sully (that's 6 levels in 7 chapters). Sully compares almost as well at level 8 as level 10 (~1 less Atk, Spd, and Def). Also Sully can potentially be reclassed earlier than Panne to get a head start on Wyvern Rider leveling (a level 10 Panne after Paralogue 3 is a stretch).
  
• In a Sully v. Panne comparison, resource considerations can only favor Sully. Panne needs to reclass ASAP to be an S-tier unit. For simplicity, I analyzed Sully's performance when given the same resource at the same time. That Sully can also contribute greatly without a Second Seal is only an advantage. I'll post a comparison of Wyvern Rider Panne and Cavalier->Paladin Sully later, if you think it would be helpful. But we must be mindful that such a comparison ignores the large opportunity cost of Panne taking one of the first two Second Seals.
  

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'm fine with discussing in this thread, but we need a baseline that isn't you.

e: More for objectivity, not trying to say your baseline is inaccurate or lacking worth. "oops"

Edited March 31, 2013 by Seven Deadly Sins

[PKL]

Flavia is the better combat unit. Being able to Sol for decent survival rate in her join chapter and can hammer things pretty well. Basilio has Rally Strength but blows as a combat unit.

[grandjackal]

Well, while the two of them are thinking about it, I can at least do you a favor with a response.

Sully joins on turn 2 of C1 and has all of C1, C2, C3, P1, C4, C5, P2, and part of C6 before Panne joins. She's immediately useable, and flourishes with a Chrom or Stahl support (they likewise benefit from the support). She can make solid contributions in all of these chapters. I reckon Sully can handily gain 8 levels and reach at least C Lances before Panne is recruited. Let's see how they compare initially:

Yet when one thinks about it, she is technically one of the worst starting units on the force. 10 base atk along with 7 Def and 20 HP getting her solidly 3RKOd is actually a very poor start. 8 speed is only good if Chrom has 10 speed, which might require a little luck for how early it is at the moment. Granted she gets out of this problem once Chrom hits C with her with 10 speed, but there's still the issue of her durability. Sully is not without her problems is what I'm pointing out, and I feel 8 levels in that time might be stretching it. This is especially true if Chrom wants to keep up. I'd say she doesn't really get going till around chapter 4.

Level 10 Sully (Cavalier): 26.8 HP, 12.8 Skl, 12.8 Spd, 10.8 Lck, 10.6 Def, 4 Res

w Steel Lance: 21.4 Atk

w Javelin: 14.4 Atk

Level 6 Panne (Taguel): 28 HP, 8+3 Str, 9+5 Skl, 10+5 Spd, 8+4 Lck, 7+1 Def, 3 Res

Beaststone: 17 Atk

Panne has a notable Spd advantage, but Sully leads in all other departments. She has +1 mov, considerably better 1-range Atk, existent 1-2 range Atk, slightly better durability, and existent supports. Panne is certainly useable, especially when paired with a unit like Stahl, but Sully contributes more in C6, C7, P3, and C8. At this point we get our first Second Seal. Panne needs this resource to be an S-tier unit. Sully benefits from the Second Seal, but can also contribute greatly as a Cavalier->Paladin (especially if paired with Stahl). Leaving this flexibility advantage aside, let's compare Panne and Sully when re-classed to Wyvern Riders:

I'd say level 7 or 8 is more accurate for Sully, at which point we can see that their durability is actually similar (though having a bit higher Def, she has noticeably less HP). Steel is not available until Cordelia arrives, at which point Sully then has to argue it out of hte hands of her or Sumia who could be supporting people that grant them higher attack. They don't become buyable until after Paralogue 4, so that's 3 chapters where Panne is doing just as much damage at melee, if not moreso thanks to the fact she isn't currently rushing a support to S. Chrom doesn't give a major Str bonus, and Panne due to her stats is free to support generally anyone she wants. Vaike or Kellam for the added beef, Lonqu cause he appreciates Str, Gaius for the same reasons+giving Panne +1 move (which case she's more mobile than Sully since Panne isn't as boned by terrain).

The 1-2 range and existent support though I can't argue. Technically one can say they have the same speed due to Chrom support.

Level 14/1 Sully (Wyvern Rider): 31.2 HP, 16.2 Skl, 14.2 Spd, 13.2 Lck, 13.4 Def, 5 Res

w Bronze Axe: 20.6 Atk

Level 10/1 Panne (Wyvern Rider): 33 HP, 13.8 Skl, 13 Spd, 9.6 Lck, 14 Def, 1.8 Res

w Bronze Axe: 21.4 Atk

At this point, Panne and Sully appear pretty even. Sully has a small Spd advantage, Panne has a small Atk advantage. Panne has slightly more physical durability, Sully has moderately more magical durability. Panne also retains her beast weakness, which is rarely, but occasionally, a hindrance. Sully has some additional advantages. She has had much more time to develop supports. It's trivial for Sully to have an A support with Chrom (which is excellent for both) or Stahl (Stahl laments the lack of Spd bonus from Wyvern Rider). Panne is likely still at C-support level with her chosen partner (Stahl? Lon'qu? Vaike? Gregor?). Sully can reach an S support with Chrom or Stahl by the time Panne develops a B-support. It takes Panne several more chapters to reap the benefits of the A and S supports. Panne also lacks the useful Chrom support of Sully. Sully also has Discipline, which has a huge effect as these two units grow. Sully will reach D Axes twice as fast as Panne (for the Iron Axe, Hand Axe, and Hammer). Sully will reach C Axes by the time Panne reaches C Axes (for the Steel Axe, Killer Axe, and Short Axe). Sully will reach B Axes before Panne reaches C Axes (for the Silver Axe). Finally, Sully will reach A Axes not long after Panne reaches C Axes (for +1 Atk). It's not all bad news for Panne; she does have generally superior growths. Let's see their stats at level 10 Wyvern Rider:

I'm surprised you didn't mention speed being a huge problem. By the time they class change, enemies have around 11 speed. Panne's speed tanks on class change, she can't actually double without a speed support, something Sully doesn't have to worry about. Thisis where I think Sully is winning, though I feel your levels are...weird. 14/1 Sully just sounds inaccurate.

As for the rest of your post, you have a point if others can replicate those levels. My only issue was your early portion arguments, and some other niggling details. Currently I'd say I'm on the fence about this at the moment. As for taking one of the first two second seals, I don't really see a problem with it if we're agreeing to Renown as pointed out in the OP, seeing as we get both at around the same time.

Here's also a thought: Considering how high Sully's Lance rank could be, why are we reclassing her? Sure she gains flight, but she also loses Killer and possibly Silver access since she binned her weapon ranks at the door.

[KitheOfEvrark]

I think the reason for reclassing Sully in the comparison was for the sake of making the two units look more similar. It's easier to compare two Wyvern Riders to each other even though sticking with Cavalier might be better for Sully. And if Cavalier Sully is better than Wyvern Rider Sully, and Wyvern Rider Sully is better than Panne, then logically Cavalier Sully is better than Panne.

Just for clarification, is the argument for Sully to rise above Panne or for Panne to drop below Sully?

[aku chi]

Yet when one thinks about it, she is technically one of the worst starting units on the force. 10 base atk along with 7 Def and 20 HP getting her solidly 3RKOd is actually a very poor start. 8 speed is only good if Chrom has 10 speed, which might require a little luck for how early it is at the moment. Granted she gets out of this problem once Chrom hits C with her with 10 speed, but there's still the issue of her durability. Sully is not without her problems is what I'm pointing out, and I feel 8 levels in that time might be stretching it. This is especially true if Chrom wants to keep up. I'd say she doesn't really get going till around chapter 4.

Sully certainly isn't a superstar in her starting chapters, but "one of the worst units" is an overstatement. She's clearly more valuable than Virion and Ricken. Kellam is only valuable for his pair-up bonuses. Miriel and Vaike have worse starts than Sully. Lissa and Maribelle are only moderately useful. Stahl is on the level. There are only 3 units that clearly outclass Sully earlygame: Frederick, Avatar, and Chrom.

I'd say level 7 or 8 is more accurate for Sully, at which point we can see that their durability is actually similar (though having a bit higher Def, she has noticeably less HP). Steel is not available until Cordelia arrives, at which point Sully then has to argue it out of hte hands of her or Sumia who could be supporting people that grant them higher attack. They don't become buyable until after Paralogue 4, so that's 3 chapters where Panne is doing just as much damage at melee, if not moreso thanks to the fact she isn't currently rushing a support to S. Chrom doesn't give a major Str bonus, and Panne due to her stats is free to support generally anyone she wants. Vaike or Kellam for the added beef, Lonqu cause he appreciates Str, Gaius for the same reasons+giving Panne +1 move (which case she's more mobile than Sully since Panne isn't as boned by terrain).

The 1-2 range and existent support though I can't argue. Technically one can say they have the same speed due to Chrom support.

I'd forgotten how long it takes to get Steel weapons: good point. Then Cavalier Sully doesn't lead Taguel Panne by much in the early-going. You seem to be assuming a Chrom support for Sully. While that's definitely one of her better supports, she has others (all of Panne's options).

I'm surprised you didn't mention speed being a huge problem. By the time they class change, enemies have around 11 speed. Panne's speed tanks on class change, she can't actually double without a speed support, something Sully doesn't have to worry about. Thisis where I think Sully is winning, though I feel your levels are...weird. 14/1 Sully just sounds inaccurate.

I was originally going to compare 12/1 Sully with 10/1 Panne, but 6 levels in 7 chapters seemed low to me. In most Fire Emblem games, a unit that roughly matches the enemy's level can grow at least one level per chapter. Awakening is certainly different with higher XP gain counterbalanced by the pair-up mechanic, so maybe it's different. Or maybe those early chapters have a lower enemy density than in other FE games. I welcome more data on this point.

As for the rest of your post, you have a point if others can replicate those levels. My only issue was your early portion arguments, and some other niggling details. Currently I'd say I'm on the fence about this at the moment.

I hope we don't get bogged down on the details of Sully's expected level, because that's a small part of the analysis. The non-obvious advantages Sully gains from an earlier S support and better weapon rank are what make Sully and Panne almost equally valuable mid-game. And because Panne only has minor advantages over Sully lategame, I think Sully's superior earlygame pushes her over Panne.

As for taking one of the first two second seals, I don't really see a problem with it if we're agreeing to Renown as pointed out in the OP, seeing as we get both at around the same time.

I think there's a pretty large cost associated with either of those Second Seals. Potential candidates:

Panne (to Wyvern Rider)

Chrom (to Cavalier)

Sully (to Wyvern Rider)

Avatar (to... Dark Mage, or Cavalier, or Pegasus Knight, or...)

Lon'qu (to Wyvern Rider)

Vaike (to Barbarian)

(any more?)

When do we get the third Second Seal? Lon'qu and Vaike might not be affected much by the wait.

Here's also a thought: Considering how high Sully's Lance rank could be, why are we reclassing her? Sure she gains flight, but she also loses Killer and possibly Silver access since she binned her weapon ranks at the door.

I think the reason for reclassing Sully in the comparison was for the sake of making the two units look more similar. It's easier to compare two Wyvern Riders to each other even though sticking with Cavalier might be better for Sully. And if Cavalier Sully is better than Wyvern Rider Sully, and Wyvern Rider Sully is better than Panne, then logically Cavalier Sully is better than Panne.

Indeed. Wyvern Rider Sully isn't without advantages, though. Wyvern Rider Sully has more Str and Def whereas Cavalier Sully has more Spd and Res. Wyvern Rider has flight, but also has weaknesses. As a Wyvern Rider, Sully can level faster, but she promotes later. Sully needs to work her way out of E Axes as a Wyvern Rider, but gets the useful Hammer in time for the Valm Generals. I honestly don't know whether it's more valuable to re-class Sully to Wyvern Rider. But if Wyvern Rider Sully is more valuable than Wyvern Rider Panne, that's all that's needed to show Sully > Panne.

Just for clarification, is the argument for Sully to rise above Panne or for Panne to drop below Sully?

Good question. If Sully is best as a Cavalier->Paladin, then I think Chrom > Sully would be easy enough to argue. If not, then it's a tougher comparison weighing the pros and cons of flight. Honestly, I could see Frederick at the top or bottom of S Tier; it all depends on how viable/valuable he is midgame. I didn't use Frederick a lot in my Hard Mode playthrough (mostly as a pair-up), so he fell off hard after the Gangrel arc. I think there's plenty to be fleshed out before we can be confident that S Tier is properly sorted. In an effort to make the smallest change at present, I'd lean towards moving Panne down.

[Interceptor]

No thoughts on Sully > Panne? :(

I read your argument, and I agree with some of the things that you said, but I'm not personally weighing in on Sully until I have some good PE on her. I am only now using her for the first time in my playlog. I tend to agree with good units going over Panne, however, since I think that she's somewhat overrated. Panne has a bit of the Wolf/Sedgar thing going for her: excellence via ignorance.

Keeping discussion in this thread would promote inclusivity.

This is the only place where the discussions go, as far as I am concerned. Someday we'll learn SDS to not make moves without actually justifying them first.

[grandjackal]

Sully certainly isn't a superstar in her starting chapters, but "one of the worst units" is an overstatement. She's clearly more valuable than Virion and Ricken. Kellam is only valuable for his pair-up bonuses. Miriel and Vaike have worse starts than Sully. Lissa and Maribelle are only moderately useful. Stahl is on the level. There are only 3 units that clearly outclass Sully earlygame: Frederick, Avatar, and Chrom.

Note that even with a base speed of 8, she still won't double things even with a speed support. What we have then is basically a unit that doesn't hit as hard as Vaike or Stahl or Miriel (or Virion, but Virion has no enemy phase so fuck him), and is barely more durable than Miriel (who has 1-2 range that ignores defense). I'd say she actually does have a worse start until she has reliable speed going. This does not come instantly.

I'd forgotten how long it takes to get Steel weapons: good point. Then Cavalier Sully doesn't lead Taguel Panne by much in the early-going. You seem to be assuming a Chrom support for Sully. While that's definitely one of her better supports, she has others (all of Panne's options).

True that Sully also has those options, but tell me what Sully is without Chrom. Note that Sully has worse speed than Panne until the reclassing happens. That's speed Sully can't double with. Chrom is pretty much the only thing keeping Sully in Panne's league, as without Chrom, Sully's just a worse version of Panne, as she will be doubling while Sully won't be.

I think there's a pretty large cost associated with either of those Second Seals. Potential candidates:

Panne (to Wyvern Rider)

Chrom (to Cavalier)

Sully (to Wyvern Rider)

Avatar (to... Dark Mage, or Cavalier, or Pegasus Knight, or...)

Lon'qu (to Wyvern Rider)

Vaike (to Barbarian)

(any more?)

Am I the only one who thinks Chrom going cav is a bad idea? His speed just tanks off it, and he loses Rapier (something I find to be great when he's supporting. Having someone be able to muder cavs and various flying creatures with a javelin?).

Avatar reclassing I've always been iffy about if only because I find Rally Spectrum to be that valuable lategame.

Lonqu going wyvern is uhh...Madness. Could just pair him up with Cherche or Panne, problems solved.

Vaike going Barb is less that it's effective and more just so Vaike stops sucking. This problem is cured by using options better than Vaike, to which there are plenty.

[Redwall]

I wonder if putting Panne above Fred was the right thing to do. While Panne is obviously amazing late in the game, my sense is that her offensive contributions can be replicated to a large extent by solid fliers like Sully and Cordelia. In contrast, Fred's earlygame is great and can't be replicated without spending more turns during early chapters. The only two superunits early on are Fred and Avatar, and both are invaluable during the early chapters, the former because he shaves lots of turns early on, and the latter because he/she shaves turns throughout the game. Neither Sully nor Panne are so dominant at any point in the game (though Panne might come close later on) so as to occupy the niche role that Fred plays.

(I feel like this sort of thinking has probably been brought up, and possibly debunked in making tiers for previous FE games, but I wasn't around for those, so...)

One other thing I'd like to talk about is the ostensible competition over the Second Seals: is there any at all? I've not played far in Hard mode, but in Lunatic, I've gotten my Grandmaster to class-change to Dark Flier using the Ch 12 Second Seal in the middle of the level (and I did try my best to play at LTC speeds, so this class progression seems doable when adopting the tierlist playstyle). In Hard mode, I could perhaps see a Tact/Peg/Dark Flier progression shaving anywhere from one to three turns relative to a Tact/GM/Dark Flier progression, but I've no experience with this. Meanwhile, Panne, Chrom, and Sully are all head and shoulders above Vaike and Lon'qu if we adopt the tierlist playstyle.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Redwall

[Dark Sage]

I heard Gaius likes to go Myrmidon as soon as possible and Gregor also likes the Second Seal too (Myrmidon and Barbarian are good options I guess).

[Momentai~]

Yeah, I've always found Virion's chip to just be superfluous. Maybe (but probably not) he can be of a little help in Ch 1, but he can't do much in Ch 2 in that wide open space, and then Miriel comes and completely out-damages him, and then in Ch 3 half the enemies are Archers anyway, and then yeah, he pretty much sucks. I still think Donnel should be higher, maybe Ricken, too.

EDIT: Hey wait, when and why did Basilio get over Flavia? That can't be right.

In chapter 2? When she is wielding thunder and paired up with avatar she can 2hko most enemies, but so can Virion. She's definitely not doing more damage than him; the difference between enemy defense and res at that point is too small and thunder only has 3 mt. They're both essentially player phase only too because Miriel is 2hko'd by everything so she doesn't want to be exposed on enemy phase.

It's just as easy to get kills for Virion at that point, but Miriel is the better exp investment. xP

[PK Gaming]

I heard Gaius likes to go Myrmidon as soon as possible and Gregor also likes the Second Seal too (Myrmidon and Barbarian are good options I guess).

it's probably unwise to second seal gregor until he gets sol / axebreaker

[aku chi]

I'm trying to wrap my head around Lucina (Avatar). What's the best approach to using her?

Lord -> Great Lord (Avatar passes Veteran)

On the upside, Lucina gets to use the Rapiers and you don't need a Second Seal. Lucina needs to be promoted to get a 1-2 range option, and has to work out of E Lances. Aether is unfortunately a redundant skill.

Cavalier -> Paladin (Avatar passes Veteran)

Lucina can still use swords, but gets lances as a 1-2 range option. Discipline helps her rank up. +2 mov is always good.

Tactician -> Grandmaster (Avatar passes Ignis)

Lucina can still use swords, but gets tomes as a 1-2 range option. Is her Magic any good? Ignis is unfortunately a redundant skill. I guess if you reclassed your Avatar, you could pass on something unique.

Tactician -> Dark Mage -> Sorcerer (Avatar passes Ignis)

Lucina can use swords as a Tactician, but gets some time to build up her tome rank. Re-class to Dark Mage at level 10 and D Tomes and have fun with Nosferatu. Is her Magic good enough for this to be worth it? Is it worth two Second Seals? Unlikely, I reckon. Plus, Morgan will be the better Sorcerer of the pair.

Pegasus Knight -> Dark Flier (Avatar passes Veteran)

Go for broke in an attempt to get Galeforce! Given that Lucina needs to give up swords (including Parallel Falchion), I can't imagine this is very efficient.

Something else I'm not thinking of?

[PKL]

In the drafts I've used her as a Lord->Great Lord into a Paladin once she gets Rightful King. Of course, passing down Veteran first.

[Interceptor]

Lucina's progression is going to depend at least partly on the team that she's surrounded with.

Personally, I think that her natural progression (Lord -> Great Lord) is a strong one. The rapiers are good, and she also has the Levin Sword for occasional 2-range necessities. If that sounds dumb, just consider that 1) she's getting a third of Avatar's MAG on her base, and 2) she has Dual Strike+, which makes even a weak 2-range game into a usable one, due to her partner.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Chrom always passes down Aether and promoting / spending 15 levels in Great Lord for Rightful King is sketchy at best when all you have proc-wise is Aether and you already have your xx/5 skill. I personally prefer Veteran passed down, reclassing directly into Cavalier for Lance access and Discipline. Great Knight and Paladin are both great classes for Lucina, and by the time she shows up we have a third Second Seal, IIRC.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Missile]

Why Virion is so low ?

[Interceptor]

Chrom always passes down Aether and promoting / spending 15 levels in Great Lord for Rightful King is sketchy at best when all you have proc-wise is Aether and you already have your xx/5 skill. I personally prefer Veteran passed down, reclassing directly into Cavalier for Lance access and Discipline. Great Knight and Paladin are both great classes for Lucina, and by the time she shows up we have a third Second Seal, IIRC.

Those may be good options for Lucina (especially GK), but "Aether redundancy" is a poor reason to skip Great Lord, which is a good class just in its own right.

Why Virion is so low ?

Because he's garbage in efficient play. This game is mostly about fighting on Enemy Phase, and he has none whatsoever due to being locked to bows.

[grandjackal]

Why Virion is so low ?

To clarify what Interceptor just said.

Training his dumbass is a nightmare considering all he can really do outside of rare instances is hit on player phase (and be terrible at it no less, not without an Str support like Vaike which is just another slow idiot you're adding to your team). He needs very specific and much wanted supports, to which he has the weakest call for them again due to player phase only. On top of this, his speed is actually awful, to the point where even class swapping him is out of the question because his options actually lose him speed. You're basically rushing to get him to an early promotion, and while Ranger somewhat fixes some of his problems, it by no means aleviates them at all. Since we gimped his leveling speed, he's pretty much going to stay that way.

In short, he is a pain to level and the reward you get out of it is pretty pisspoor.

[Vorena]

Lucina's Magic base and growth is not the best. So, reclassing through tactician or dark mage is pretty pointless. The skills are not worth it as Veteran is already gotten. But, lord -> great lord is completely fine for her. It basically works into another Chrom, but faster and without the need for an immediate reclass. Cavalier -> Paladin I believe to be the strongest route as Discipline allows to quickly get through the lance problem and eventually you can get Aegis through Paladin.

[Samias]

Why Virion is so low ?

Also bear in mind that renown and bonus tile items are not being used, which huts Virion more than any other character, otherwise he and his early longbow utterly dominate certain chapters.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Those may be good options for Lucina (especially GK), but "Aether redundancy" is a poor reason to skip Great Lord, which is a good class just in its own right.

Great Lord (F) vs. Paladin is a rough comparison. Great Lord wins by 2 Skl and 3 Spe, but loses everything else pretty badly. 5 HP, 1 Str, 2 Def/Res, 2 Move, and more notably, pretty solid skills in Discipline and Defender, with Aegis as cake. Cavalier also happens to have the same growths, but with +5% HP, and +5% additional Res growth on promotion. Getting out of E Lances without Discipline is pretty rough in general. The only thing that Great Lord really has going for it is Rapier / Noble Rapier, but you don't get your first Noble Rapier until damn late in the game, and you can make up for a lack of Rapier with Armorslayer / Beastkiller. Paladin also has way better pair up bonuses as well. +2 Str / Skl / Spe / Def vs +4 Spe / Lck means that at A/S support, you're getting +4 Str/Skl/Def vs 2 Spe and a whole mess of largely useless Luck.

Great Lord isn't a bad class, but considering that both people that get access to it also get access to Paladin, I can't really see why you'd want to dally around in it for very long.

[Lilmik11]

Just a question...Why is Sumia higher than Cordelia? Sure she joins before her, but isn't she a whole lot worse than her statistically? Just my opinion, I'd just like to see some arguments.

[grandjackal]

Just a question...Why is Sumia higher than Cordelia? Sure she joins before her, but isn't she a whole lot worse than her statistically? Just my opinion, I'd just like to see some arguments.

Me and Interceptor are actually in the middle of judging that actually in our playlogs. We just needed more detailed experiences, so we're doing just that.

[Vorena]

The two may not actually be all that different statistically since the stats we have may not be all that accurate. MU with Tactician and HP/lck ass/flaw was getting +2 HP on level-ups despite the fact the site says 95% chance for a boost. So, some things are wrong.