FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[eclipse]

I've used General!Frederick on Lunatic challenge runs before, and he's excellent. Speed potions and pairing up exist, and this probably won't even be necessary against lolHard enemies.

If Fred is doing decently well, durability-wise, in his base class, isn't General overkill?

Edited March 28, 2013 by eclipse

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Not necessarily. General has a number of advantages, notably more defense for the pair up, and if you're doing Frederick x Sumia, you can actually end up with a Cynthia that can Rally both Defense and Speed.

It may not be the perfect choice but it definitely works and has its advantages.

[grandjackal]

Kinda depends on who Fred is supporting. If he's supporting someone tough or needs mobility, he'd probably prefer Gryphon since it gives him a much needed speed boost at the cost of his durability. If he's supporting someone like Sumia or Cordelia, they'd much prefer him general since he'd be way to fragile as a Gryphon and would offer them little in return other than consistent mobility.

General boosts are also hyper sexy (will most likely be giving like +8 Def and +6-7 Str) for fragile speed demons, and they give him the speed he needs to keep going since General bases are nearly the same as GK anyways (slightly better, but lose 1 speed).

Then you dump him for his dual rallying kid because Speed+Def Rally is a really awesome rally.

[Constable Reggie]

How do we take into account the fact that he's incredibly reliant on a really good support partner lategame (hell even midgame) just to do decent?

I can't really understand how we take pairup overall into effect in the tier list. Does a pairup with Sumia give the credit solely to Sumia for the bonuses, or does Frederick benefit from it because his combat gets better from it?

Edited March 28, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Interceptor]

I don't think it's a problem unless his "good support partner" is an excellent unit in their own right, such that making that unit Fred's Pair Up buddy is going to negatively impact what your army can do. Like, if Fred needs Avatar, that's a problem.

[Constable Reggie]

If we're assuming Sumia's going to be her permanent support partner, doesn't that hinder Sumia, though? She's a great unit in her own right (all she needs is a str+def partner [that isn't necessarily Fred], and not one as drastic as like +6-8 speed that Fred needs), but even if she is paired with Fred mid/late game, it's probably a much better idea to main Sumia instead of Fred (doubling and flying > durability). What's the opportunity cost for keeping Sumia as a backburner for Fred?

Edited March 28, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[grandjackal]

If we're assuming Sumia's going to be her permanent support partner, doesn't that hinder Sumia, though?

Sumia without Fred is miles worse than Sumia with Fred. In fact, without Fred, Sumia's start is pretty atrocious and won't really get anywhere too fast. If not for Fred, Sumia's usefulness is rather limited.

She's a great unit in her own right (all she needs is a str+def partner [that isn't necessarily Fred],

It most certainly is necessarily Fred, because he's the only such support she can actually build up. Kellam and Vaike don't build support with her.

and not one as drastic as like +6-8 speed that Fred needs)

Funny, cause Sumia gives him just that.

but even if she is paired with Fred mid/late game, it's probably a much better idea to main Sumia instead of Fred (doubling and flying > durability). What's the opportunity cost for keeping Sumia as a backburner for Fred?

A worse Cyntha? Cause I can't really think of anything else that would be impacting.

You can use both in tandem ya know. Due to Fred's terribad leveling speed, pitching in for dual attacks gets him very similar exp to if he just got the kill himself, so Fred doesn't even have to be the frontliner of his pairup to be good and keep up. Doesn't have to be so blatantly one sided.

[Constable Reggie]

Sumia without Fred is miles worse than Sumia with Fred. In fact, without Fred, Sumia's start is pretty atrocious and won't really get anywhere too fast. If not for Fred, Sumia's usefulness is rather limited.

This is already taken into account when we consider that Fred's excellent in earlygame, and with Sumia being only in A tier.

It most certainly is necessarily Fred, because he's the only such support she can actually build up. Kellam and Vaike don't build support with her.

So what? Since we haven't even taken children into account, she can support anyone else she wants (one that has str, at least) and still do relatively well.

Funny, cause Sumia gives him just that.

Great, so you're admitting that Fred's absolutely reliant on one type of support.

Cause I can't really think of anything else that would be impacting.

You can use both in tandem ya know. Due to Fred's terribad leveling speed, pitching in for dual attacks gets him very similar exp to if he just got the kill himself, so Fred doesn't even have to be the frontliner of his pairup to be good and keep up. Doesn't have to be so blatantly one sided.

You're gimping a great character just to make another adequate.

Dual strikes are not a reliable way to get exp. If you're relying on that, Fred's slow exp gain goes down to extremely slow exp gain, and he has an even harder time keeping up with ramping enemy stats.

If Fred's so damn reliant on a specific type of character just to do mediocrely past halfway through the game, then that's not worthy of S tier. Sully easily gets going like, 3 chapters after her join time and only gets better without having to rely on a pair up partner afterwards. She has the possibility of pairing up with whoever wants her support on the fly while never falling behind, but never requires to be glued to another character, while Fred absolutely requires one specific type of support and gimps whoever he's with lategame if he becomes the primary because his combat is not that great.

[Interceptor]

I think that I'll kick the tires on this one in a playthrough. I want to get some PE on Frederick's power curve, Sumia vs. Cordelia, and some SullyxChrom action. Might as well do it ALL AT ONCE.

[grandjackal]

I think that I'll kick the tires on this one in a playthrough. I want to get some PE on Frederick's power curve, Sumia vs. Cordelia, and some SullyxChrom action. Might as well do it ALL AT ONCE.

If it helps, I did a FredxCordelia run (in the middle of it right now, actually). Haven't really noticed a difference in the performance of Sumia or Cordelia in tandem with Fred as a support, so I feel it boils down to the kid. Cynthia vs Severa. Fred can give Deliverer to Cynthia who is already flying, or Rally to Severa so if she wants to instapromote to ranger (can say keeping her as a mercenary blows, and as a cav her speedbase is terrible), she can have a Rally that is +Speed+Def+Skill...Or give Deliverer so she has 10 move.

Fred's actually a pretty cool dad, all things considered.

@Reggie: I pretty much just had this argument with Red Fox, I'm not going to go through it again. I'd say let's Interceptor do his playthrough and give his opinion cause I'm free to let others be the judge with something concrete. Just know that I don't get why being "reliant" on a support is a bad thing if the performance of said support brings more results than most out of it's existence. A good amount of support options are garbage. Just cause you have more options doesn't mean those options necessarily mean anything. Example: Any support with Virion might as well be a wasted support option.

[PKL]

This is already taken into account when we consider that Fred's excellent in earlygame, and with Sumia being only in A tier.

So what? Since we haven't even taken children into account, she can support anyone else she wants (one that has str, at least) and still do relatively well.

Great, so you're admitting that Fred's absolutely reliant on one type of support.

You're gimping a great character just to make another adequate.

Dual strikes are not a reliable way to get exp. If you're relying on that, Fred's slow exp gain goes down to extremely slow exp gain, and he has an even harder time keeping up with ramping enemy stats.

If Fred's so damn reliant on a specific type of character just to do mediocrely past halfway through the game, then that's not worthy of S tier. Sully easily gets going like, 3 chapters after her join time and only gets better without having to rely on a pair up partner afterwards. She has the possibility of pairing up with whoever wants her support on the fly while never falling behind, but never requires to be glued to another character, while Fred absolutely requires one specific type of support and gimps whoever he's with lategame if he becomes the primary because his combat is not that great.

Sully also has a lot more possibility of being screwed and has a pretty meh start though. Fred is great in the beginning and at worst, can be a great pair up partner at base for people like Sumia/Cordelia and others fast units. He gives +mov, aiding faster completion, gives +4str and +4def at base and +1 spd and his bonuses will only get better. I mean, even if he gets screwed, you can just attach him to someone forever and boost that unit's performance drastically. How is that not a better unit than sully?

Also, I recall someone asking why Henry would ever have a Sumia support. I decided to test this and noticed that a magic maining Sumia greatly benefits from a Dark Knight henry pair up. Giving mag for better offense, def that drastically helps her, and of course, move. This only means Henry is a support bot at best though. I still havent been able to use him sucessfully as a combat unit. Dat base spd in C13 is borderline unfixable.

Edited March 28, 2013 by CordeliaxFrederick

[Constable Reggie]

@Reggie: I pretty much just had this argument with Red Fox, I'm not going to go through it again. I'd say let's Interceptor do his playthrough and give his opinion cause I'm free to let others be the judge with something concrete. Just know that I don't get why being "reliant" on a support is a bad thing if the performance of said support brings more results than most out of it's existence. A good amount of support options are garbage. Just cause you have more options doesn't mean those options necessarily mean anything. Example: Any support with Virion might as well be a wasted support option.

I'm not doubting that SumiaxFred is great earlygame, but when Fred's stats start to dwindle, Sumia may as well just support anyone else since +10/15 bonuses aren't really worth being paired with a lesser unit and is made up by interchanging with an self-reliant unit that just gets better when paired up. If Fred's still going to be used with Sumia, there has to be a cost to that, because now Sumia's being dragged down just to make Fred sort of decent mid/lategame. If Fred's relegated to purely a pair up support, then several people here already agreed that he should go down. I personally paired Fred with Cordelia and was pretty much forced to keep Fred as Cordelia's support, since he wasn't competent enough as the primary pair up.

Sully also has a lot more possibility of being screwed and has a pretty meh start though. Fred is great in the beginning and at worst, can be a great pair up partner at base for people like Sumia/Cordelia and others fast units. He gives +mov, aiding faster completion, gives +4str and +4def at base and +1 spd and his bonuses will only get better. I mean, even if he gets screwed, you can just attach him to someone forever and boost that unit's performance drastically. How is that not a better unit than sully?

You should actually try using Sully then, because she can easily start orkoing (or extremely close to it) most enemies bar knights with the iron lance and a decent pair up (Chrom or Stahl) starting from chapter 4.

And really, since when the hell is "being attached to someone forever" for 2/5th of the game worthy of being 3rd best character? I've still yet to understand that reasoning. Sully has a decent start, and will keep getting better without any bullshit setback like being a permanent support pairup or requiring a specific pair up partner just to do decently. You might as well argue Panne back below Fred because she has just an average start.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Inference]

Freddy not being at the top is lol.

[grandjackal]

I'm not doubting that SumiaxFred is great earlygame, but when Fred's stats start to dwindle, Sumia may as well just support anyone else since +10/15 bonuses aren't really worth being paired with a lesser unit and is made up by interchanging with an self-reliant unit that just gets better when paired up. If Fred's still going to be used with Sumia, there has to be a cost to that, because now Sumia's being dragged down just to make Fred sort of decent mid/lategame. If Fred's relegated to purely a pair up support, then several people here already agreed that he should go down. I personally paired Fred with Cordelia and was pretty much forced to keep Fred as Cordelia's support, since he wasn't competent enough as the primary pair up.

Well there is a benefit with his kid, namely he gives them Cavalier. This lets his kids give similar bonuses to him with an automatic C, so they can grow and be good thanks to their mom's great speed support while you can drop his ass.

AKA: what you usually do with the shittier parent of the children. I'd say it works better for Cynthia than Severa, but Severa's also got the option of Ranger if she wants to be full on support bot.

You should actually try using Sully then, because she can easily start orkoing (or extremely close to it) most enemies bar knights with the iron lance and a decent pair up (Chrom or Stahl) starting from chapter 4.

Chrom does not give her Str. Stahl you kinda have a point. My only issue with Stahl is that he doesn't get as much out of her and he kinda falls off thanks to his shit speed. He would prefer a support a little more drastic, like Kellam so that he can just be a mobile supertank to give him an excuse to exist until you have someone better/someone he can support with more freely. Thinking of him with Cordelia...Though he doesn't really give any good skills down...

And really, since when the hell is "being attached to someone forever" for 2/5th of the game worthy of being 3rd best character? I've still yet to understand that reasoning. Sully has a decent start, and will keep getting better without any bullshit setback like being a permanent support pairup or requiring a specific pair up partner just to do decently. You might as well argue Panne back below Fred because she has just an average start.

I think the bigger thing is that everyone exaggerates how bad he "falls off" like he just all of a sudden becomes an unusably shitty character, while understating just how good he is before he just becomes average.

[Constable Reggie]

Well there is a benefit with his kid, namely he gives them Cavalier. This lets his kids give similar bonuses to him with an automatic C, so they can grow and be good thanks to their mom's great speed support while you can drop his ass.

We don't even know the how valuable we consider parent bonuses to children. We're not even ranking children and are probably really far off from even attempting to do so.

Oh, so now he's worth 3rd best character because we don't have to use him anymore. Fe6 Marcus to top tier please. He's given his excellent contribution for the first half of the game, so we don't have to use him anymore. His contribution afterwards is relegated to being a ferry for Roy, but that can't be counted against him.

Are we also dropping Panne (let's say she's paired with Avatar) the second we get Yarne?

Chrom does not give her Str. Stahl you kinda have a point. My only issue with Stahl is that he doesn't get as much out of her and he kinda falls off thanks to his shit speed. He would prefer a support a little more drastic, like Kellam so that he can just be a mobile supertank to give him an excuse to exist until you have someone better/someone he can support with more freely. Thinking of him with Cordelia...Though he doesn't really give any good skills down...

My bad, my Chrom had 10 str by chapter 4. Alternatively, she just needs 2 str from base to orko with any speed pair up.

But wait, Stahl can just get a really good speed pair up and do extremely well! That totally makes up for the fact that he absolutely requires a pair up to do well! You can just drop his ass after you get his child too! [/sarcasm]

I think the bigger thing is that everyone exaggerates how bad he "falls off" like he just all of a sudden becomes an unusably shitty character, while understating just how good he is before he just becomes average.

Not average, below average. He requires an extremely high speed pair up partner (gimping them in the process) just to do adequately, and if he's not fighting, he's relegated to a permanent support pair up slot. Sumia can be paired up with anyone else and let her pair up double (and likely kill) everything on the map 100% (or vice versa), so it shouldn't be assumed that Fred deserves Sumia (or any primarily speed pair up) 100% of the time.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[PKL]

You could just use Say'ri to aid Fred's spd if it becomes an issue later in the game. There's people that have been able to use him all game like Horace without him slowing down at all.

And Reggie, I have used Sully. Ive used everyone by now. She makes a good Griffon Ill admit, but she didnt really impress me for a long long while...shes pretty average id say.

Edited March 28, 2013 by CordeliaxFrederick

[Constable Reggie]

What's with the sandbagging? If Fred's allowed to have 2 deployment slots just to make him decent, then you may as well give Sully Tiki and let her wreck everything.

[MercuryHg34]

Personally I feel that Fred's main asset of being a support bot shouldn't be counted against him. Yes, this is a tier list ranking characters individually, but we're also considering their overall contributions to the army. In a game where you'd be a fool not to have a pair-up partner for everyone, Fred is a notably great unit to pair with the fliers. That's enough of a contribution to me to at least remain a high tier character. Consider thinking of it in this way as you continue to discuss how far he should drop.

[Constable Reggie]

He would still be in S tier, just not the (second) top of it.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[eclipse]

Reggie: We get it, you don't like Frederick. No need to be hostile about it. Also, personal experience and all.

Oh, speaking of that post I linked. . .Sumia has four husbands (and why would you even pair her with Gaius/Henry?), and two non-marriage supports. You can either attach Frederick to her and make her more durable while giving Fred some experience, or you can attach her to Chrom, where she'll get less face time. I'd prefer giving her Frederick and giving Chrom someone else, simply because you'll get two kickass units as opposed to one pair that's fighting for screen time. This keeps two characters useful, which is something I don't object to.

[Momentai~]

I've started a pt following the restrictions of this tier list using some of the lower tier characters (Ricken, Donnel, Virion, Henry, Olivia, Maribelle/Lissa, Kellam, and Gaius) and Miriel (I want to compare her to Ricken because the gap between the two seems far too wide). I'm probably planning on using too many people lol. I guess I'll find out as I go along.

Miriel (paired with Avatar) started 1rkoing in chapter 4, yay! She doesn't really want an enemy phase though since she's still 2hko'd by all physical enemies and I don't see that stopping any time soon. If I pair her for durability then she will not be fast or strong enough to one round stuff. I'd prefer 1rkoing over being able to take an extra hit or two. Miriel is that high because of rescue, right? Her combat alone doesn't seem special enough to warrant her current placement. It's good enough to allow her to get to Sage for rescue without being a hindrance I guess. Anyway, I'm not far enough to make any arguments for moving people up or down yet (only on chapter 5 lol); I'm just making some observations. I can post stats and turn counts if you guys want...

[Lord Raven]

Hey guys, I know you guys love throwing the personal experience mantra but in order for it to be an effective argument, you have to describe the situation in detail, possibly give stats and numbers, then draw some valid conclusions and why, from your observations, that your point is valid. For instance, "I used Frederick as a General and he was good" is nice, but when people said it that's all I more or less saw.

"I used Frederick as a general, and he was good because enemies tinked him; I promoted him at this level and had this much Str/Def throughout the game and enemies don't get as powerful" is far more valid. Describing the situation in some detail, going through the basic stuff, then making conclusions based on those details.

[Constable Reggie]

I'm going to quit trying to move Frederick down. Keep him where he is, seems fine.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Bryan]

Why don't we just rename this tier list "Lunatic" and get over with it? It's what you guys are all ranking anyway. I can get low turns on hard and not use Fred at all. If this was lunatic, I couldn't make this same argument, nor would donnel be at all savagable like you're all implying.

[Blademaster!]

Why don't we just rename this tier list "Lunatic" and get over with it?

But there's already a thread for that.