Randa Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) We don't we just outline the lowest turn count possible and then on a chapter by chapter basis set parameters. The major idea is like walharts level has an incredibly low turn count that adding 6 doesn't make sense at the moment so I think if we decide on each level there will be less confusion. Edited March 27, 2013 by Randa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recondite Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) 1. Most of the children units will be garbage. As only a few units are going to be proactively used in Lunatic due to the necessity of building up SuperUnits, those children with weak parents will acquire low stats at a paltry base level 10. 2. An inescapable consequence of adding in children will be re-evaluating first generation mothers based on how feasible their children maps are early on. S-Ranking Sully becomes a priority over Nowi as Kjelle's map is far easier than Nah's. But do we care about prioritizing mothers if most of the children will be garbage anyway? What if we simply assume each parent was used when rating the children, but ignore the effect otherwise? Might not be feasible, I don't know. We could use 'must contribute more than Donnel' as the criterion for a given child actually getting on the list and just ignore Nah and company entirely. Or 'must be reasonably possible to recruit before endgame'. Edited March 27, 2013 by Recondite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) We don't we just outline the lowest turn count possible and then on a chapter by chapter basis set parameters. "no more than a half dozen turns" sounds like +6 across the board to me, which is what I was responding to. I sort of like this approach because we don't necessarily need to have the absolute lowest turn totals handy; we can work with a general understanding of how quickly maps could be completed and add in +X turns for each map. This is both flexible and well-defined. But do we care about prioritizing mothers if most of the children will be garbage anyway? Absolutely. The main resource to be gained from Children Paralogues isn't the children units, but the gobs and gobs of experience. This makes units like Sully, Lissa, etc. high priorities for S-Ranks, which means they'll see more use early on. Edited March 27, 2013 by Legault! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeCrush980 Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Donnel needs a tier at the bottom called Pothead Tier. He's just that impossible to train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constable Reggie Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Well-defined standards are essential in a list like this. Please try and remain respectful. What, 30+ pages wasn't enough for you to figure some sort of consensus out in the hard mode tier list? Seriously, this is a tier list. Why don't we actually try discussing tier placement for once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 What, 30+ pages wasn't enough for you to figure some sort of consensus out in the hard mode tier list? Seeing as no resolution was reached and arguments for a more defined criteria were hand-waived and insulted, 30+ pages wasn't enough. Thankfully, we're already making some progress here with some nice suggestions, and I'm sure this will be resolved quickly enough. If you'd like to criticize my approach further, I'd encourage PMing rather than telling me here. It's very off-topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randa Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) Premonition:3 should be 2 but I'll be nice Prologue:10 Chapter1: 8 Chapter2: 9 Chapter3: 10 Chapter4: 5 Does this look around right for the first few levels? Edited March 27, 2013 by Randa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constable Reggie Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Seeing as no resolution was reached and arguments for a more defined criteria were hand-waived and insulted, 30+ pages wasn't enough. Thankfully, we're already making some progress here with some nice suggestions, and I'm sure this will be resolved quickly enough. If you'd like to criticize my approach further, I'd encourage PMing rather than telling me here. It's very off-topic. And clearly it's not meant to be discussed in a tier list thread, considering a moderator had to cut you off for being off topic. What are you doing bringing the issue straight into a slightly different tier list thread? And as for discussion of the tier list (about, you know, tier placement), Donnel still needs to be put in the bottom (Flavia/Basilio are somewhat competent when they join, but Donnel is literally untrainable), possibly in his own tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) Premonition:3 should be 2 but I'll be nice Prologue:10 Chapter1: 8 Chapter2: 9 Chapter3: 10 Chapter4: 5 Does look around right for the first few levels. Premonition: There is absolutely no reason for this map to take any more than two turns. Even on Lunatic, Chrom + Silver Sword one-rounds Validar. The rest sound good. I'd probably bump Ch.2 up to 10 considering that RNG plays a role here. And clearly it's not meant to be discussed in a tier list thread, considering a moderator had to cut you off for being off topic. What are you doing bringing the issue straight into a slightly different tier list thread? Talking about a tier list is, in fact, meant to be discussed in a tier list topic. I've been contacted by a moderator who encouraged me to make this topic and explained that tier list philosophy is perfectly acceptable in general (just not in SDS's topic, where his mind is set). This topic has a different lead and a different approach. Please stop with these off-topic posts. Edited March 27, 2013 by Legault! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randa Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) Premonition: There is absolutely no reason for this map to take any more than two turns. Even on Lunatic, Chrom + Silver Sword one-rounds Validar. The rest sound good. I'd probably bump Ch.2 up to 10 considering that RNG plays a role here. The reason for three turns is that if you restrict double ups then it takes three turns so. I'm just trying to outline, somebody else should do this because I play very slowly. Edited March 27, 2013 by Randa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 No restrictions on Pairing Up here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeCrush980 Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I just realized something important: is it even possible to beat Lunatic mode under the rules in the OP? Those of you who hang around GameFAQs will remember that Westbrick used similar rules with his "True Lunatic" runs but he couldn't complete them unless he soloed with a Nosferatank, Avatar, or Chrom. And then he went insane and trolled every topic about how much he hated the game and everyone who liked it until he closed his account, but that's another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constable Reggie Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Chrom, Sully, and Stahl need to go down. Their awful start really leaves an impact. Tharja should probably go up, since not having to rely on healing like everyone else is very beneficial, unlike in hard. Donnel still needs to go down, since he's literally impossible to train. Maribelle and Lissa should go up a bit, since healing's much more valuable on lunatic than it is on hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I usually get 7-8 turns in Ch. 1 without even trying I would imagine the real minimum is lower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 I usually get 7-8 turns in Ch. 1 without even trying I would imagine the real minimum is lower I'm assuming those are the maximum turns we'll be allowing, not the minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randa Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Should I just make another topic to discuss rational turn counts and then come back to the tier list with the parameters for a brisk pace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Should I just make another topic to discuss rational turn counts and then come back to the tier list with the parameters for a brisk pace? That might help un-clutter this topic. I'd appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 in that case 10 for Prologue seems kind of high unless you're doing tons of Fred also LTC isn't always the hardest way to do things. There are a ton of chapters in FE12 where the easiest way to beat it is to finish it ASAP because otherwise it's megatuff (6x, 16x, 19+20, 22-24), or like every chapter in FE11 after you get Warp. In this game, rescue/galeforce skipping chapters is usually much harder than dealing with the reinforcements. Note how every chapter has in common that LTCing it involves ignoring a vast majority of the enemies, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 ::IN favor of either renaming this topic or creating a new topic to define the standards of a non-Max LTC tier:: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 (edited) Turns chapter-by-chapter, or bank of turns for the entire game? Edited March 27, 2013 by Interceptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Turns chapter-by-chapter, or bank of turns for the entire game? Chapter-by-chapter. It makes things simpler (and simple is good): the turn counts per chapter will be plenty generous, and it avoids conversations about rushing through earlygame so you can "stock up" on turns later on. There's a separate topic that's been made about figuring this out and I encourage everyone to give it a look and participate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 What's your plan for differentiating units from each other once you establish the baseline turncounts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legault! Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 What's your plan for differentiating units from each other once you establish the baseline turncounts? Once those are established, the rest should be easy. Using all available turns is both accepted and encouraged, which will hopefully nullify lingering questions like "Is Dark Knight better than Sorcerer since the latter takes more turns, even if it's more reliable?" Better units are those that make the game easier to complete within the parameters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quick Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Wait I just realized something, why is Sully S tier when you greatly implied in the Lunatic Club that units that this mode has very few usable characters and one of the specific bad ones you mentioned was Sully? Doesn't make sense to me. Then again, maybe I misinterpreted. Ah well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 What does "easier to complete" mean in practical terms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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