why are jeigans in high tiers?

[Chiki]

I don't think I know so little about other FE games to not comment about them. I beat FE7 on HHM with 0% growths a few years ago and FE8 HM with just Lute when I was like 13.

Take my word for it. All FE games with Jeigans have similar issues, in that they're exp drains and useless after early game. All FE games have their own little exp requirements by certain chapters if you want to get the lowest turns possible. FE9 is just one example.

What frustrates me is that people refuse to acknowledge units like Jill, Marcia, maybe Franz, and even FE10 Jill in favor of people like Titania, Seth and Haar. They all can be far more game breaking than an exp-draining Jeigans can. Franz (?) and FE10 Jill less so.

I remember when people used to laugh at me when I claimed that Jeigans do drain exp a few years back. When I was doing FE9 character ratings I gave Titania a 9.5 for that reason, and Anouleth called me out for it. But it really does seem like my claims are the true ones thanks to my experiments.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Olwen

[dondon151]

FE8 HM endgame is actually deceptively hard...

anyway jushiro totally makes sense from his paradigm of past a certain point in the game, all but ~4 characters (a slight exaggeration, but a good approximation) are useless. we are discussing a different paradigm, though. i don't disagree with his views on FE9 marcia and FE10 jill.

however, this line of thought doesn't apply very well outside of tellius FE for 2 reasons: lack of BEXP and lack of paragon. it's substantially harder to raise a flier to epic proportions in other games without early investment or massaging the RNG.

Edited April 6, 2013 by dondon151

[Chiki]

FE8 HM endgame is actually deceptively hard...

anyway jushiro totally makes sense from his paradigm of past a certain point in the game, all but ~4 characters (a slight exaggeration, but a good approximation) are useless. we are discussing a different paradigm, though.

By useless I don't mean literally useless but no unique value.

I don't see why early investment is out of the question in efficiency playthroughs.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Olwen

[Hawkeye]

I don't think I know so little about other FE games to not comment about them. I beat FE7 on HHM with 0% growths a few years ago and FE8 HM with just Lute when I was like 13.

Take my word for it. All FE games with Jeigans have similar issues, in that they're exp drains and useless after early game. All FE games have their own little exp requirements by certain chapters if you want to get the lowest turns possible. FE9 is just one example.

What frustrates me is that people refuse to acknowledge units like Jill, Marcia, maybe Franz, and even FE10 Jill in favor of people like Titania, Seth and Haar. They all can be far more game breaking than an exp-draining Jeigans can. Franz (?) and FE10 Jill less so.

I remember when people used to laugh at me when I claimed that Jeigans do drain exp a few years back. When I was doing FE9 character ratings I gave Titania a 9.5 for that reason, and Anouleth called me out for it. But it really does seem like my claims are the true ones thanks to my experiments.

Neither of those playthroughs have anything to do with this topic, just saying. Also you can't say that Jeigans are detrimental past a certain point in achieving these "little exp requirements" in other games because you have no idea what those requirements are (if I'm wrong on that, let me know). Nobody ever refuses to acknowledge those units, they're widely known as being some of the best. Everybody knows how Marcia and Jill can break FE9, that's (I believe) why the BEXP limit rules were created for drafts. Seth breaks the game more than Franz, it's ridiculous to try and deny that, and Haar isn't a Jeigan. Everyone understand that experience given to Jeigans is experience other units don't get, but I really do think you exaggerate how much of a problem that is and how much it should be considered a detriment to the value of the unit.

[Chiki]

I never said they were relevant. All I said was that my knowledge wasn't zero.

Didn't Horace's LTC playthrough utilize Franz? Am I wrong?

And I don't see why LTCs of FE7 couldn't ask for a high level Florina, maybe in chapters like Noble Lady of Caelin, since she can simply cross the mountain. She has an advantage over Marcus there. I admit I don't know for sure on these games, so others might answer better for me.

I consider Haar as one who is wanked on a similar level to the Jeigans.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Olwen

[Hawkeye]

I never said they were relevant. All I said was that my knowledge wasn't zero.

Didn't Horace's LTC playthrough utilize Franz? Am I wrong?

And I don't see why LTCs of FE7 couldn't ask for a high level Florina, maybe in chapters like Noble Lady of Caelin, since she can simply cross the mountain. She has an advantage over Marcus there. I admit I don't know for sure on these games, so others might answer better for me.

You are trying to argue that Jeigans are overrated, keep that in mind. The fact that Horace used Franz does not support that, in fact if I remember correctly he said that Franz did barely anything, Seth does all the heavy lifting. Of course Florina can do that, but the thing is, without Marcus to be dropped by her and kill all the enemies, that movement means nothing. Again, Florina is a good unit, always the first pick for drafts, but in drafts Marcus is free and then banned. I'm not saying you've never played the other games, I'm saying that you don't have the expertise that you do in FE9 and FE10 and you really don't have anything to back up your general claim of Jeigans being overrated.

[Chiki]

I don't see why Marcus has to kill the enemies. I always include LHM in my FE7 discussions.

I'll let others answer for me on other games.

[Loki Laufeyson]

if actually used properly.

Theres the rub. A lot of people (who tend to argue against the Jeigan) dont really know how to use them.

Take Seth for example. You got peeps saying he eats EXP for guys like Franz who end up "better." Orly? Can you have Vanessa drop Franz off on that far end across the water in chapter 9 (Eirika) and have him decimate all those dudes? Maybe, but that would require quite a bit of spam to promote him or a Sethless run. By dropping Seth there without grinding, he can shave off turns by destroying all those guys.

By having Marcus rip through those guys in chapter 12(Hector), you save quite a few turns and possibly an Eliwood death.

By having the Jeigan ferry guys around (like your Lord for seizing) you can shave turns.

I dont go for LTC. Hardly. But at times, i do go for something resembling efficiency (particularly in the Tellius games) and using the Jeigan helps so mmuch. Even Sothe does this. Its all a matter of knowing how to use that guy without having your scrubs take a hit in the process. Its like some people think its "use the Jeigan and ignore everyone else or bench the Jeigan." wut?

[Hawkeye]

I don't see why Marcus has to kill the enemies. I always include LHM in my FE7 discussions.

I'll let others answer for me on other games.

Marcus is the only unit who can do it reliably. No other unit in Eliwood's/Hector's party can reliably take on that many units at a time so I'm assuming you're trying to make a claim that Florina can do it. I'm not going to crunch the numbers (I might if you really do stick strongly to this claim), but Florina does not have very good durability and is also facing archers. It's generally difficult to get her to survive even when she's dropping off Marcus. I'm assuming you're not saying that we should completely abuse Lyn mode for an overlevelled Florina, because that's obviously not a realistic situation and has nothing to do with Marcus being overrated as a Jeigan.

[Loki Laufeyson]

What? Florina does NOT have the reliability to do that that early in the game. Even if shes like level 13 or something, it just doesnt work. Theres also a ballista in that chapter if im not mistaken which could easily spell her doom.

[Florete]

Yes, there is a ballistae there and I'm not sure she can reasonably survive even a single round from it, much less take any other enemy attacks.

[dondon151]

I don't see why early investment is out of the question in efficiency playthroughs.

because jagen archetype unit is clearing the map faster than the flier can grow

obviously at some point the flier will be pretty good, but it's not like in FE9 where you can dump a million BEXP for a promoted flier by chapter 12 or in FE10 where jill can go through basically more than half of her tier 2 levels in a single map

[Espinosa]

Come midgame, Titania is totally arbitrary. Using her isn't going to award you in turns and it's only going to give you a trivial amount of reliability. After C12 your units are already going to be strong enough to one-round everything by themselves. And come 17-2, you're going to need Oscar and Kieran/Makalov both promoted to cut a turn in C17-2.

Why not specify what you mean exactly? You are trying to say that in 17-2 Titania lacks the necessary weight to help with rescuedropping Mordecai. This can be resolved by getting the desert Statue Frag with (probably) Sothe, or Master Sealing Kieran/Makalov without actually using them. Am I right here?

That's not the point. I'm not denying that may be the case. All I am arguing is that they become useless after a certain point in the game, and that they are exp drains.

There is never a point where Seth is an exp drain. Only if you're beamcrash playing the Japanese version of the game with storebought stat boosters and rigging perfect level-ups on all growth units does an LTC playthrough of FE8 allow Seth to be obsolete.

Actually, no. I remember I was doing a draft with Seth (I think it was an exp draft that had draftable Seth) and in the chapter where you recruit Duessel I was thinking of going for the bosskill for the quick end. Seth had something like a 3HKO against the boss with Silver, couldn't double, and was cut to ribbons by the mooks around the boss. He was pretty decently levelled at that point (since exp draft) so I can confirm that myth busted.

Seth needs to take every bosskill and get a bit speed-blessed to double the boss with a Killing Edge, 4-5HKOing. On my run I had a blessed Seth and still needed to make the Ranger boss equip his Longbow to weigh himself down and make the doubling possible. I think you can gang up on him in a 4-turn, but the rest of your party will have trouble dealing any damage to him.

Also, though Dozla can double endgame Lyon (gotta thank Garm's boost for that I believe), he'll need a lot of strength (which he probably won't be able to grow) to actually hurt Lyon, and he most certainly will not be taking Lyon's counter and a dozen or so enemies attacking him on enemy phase.

Didn't Horace's LTC playthrough utilize Franz? Am I wrong?

And I don't see why LTCs of FE7 couldn't ask for a high level Florina, maybe in chapters like Noble Lady of Caelin, since she can simply cross the mountain. She has an advantage over Marcus there. I admit I don't know for sure on these games, so others might answer better for me.

Only for ferrying. Seth leaves no room for proper training of any of the Cavs, or even Vanessa/Tana. Their promoted 8 move also only appears to matter in chapter 14 of either route.

Non-TAS Florina has insufficient stats to survive enemy phases (Steel Bow users 2HKO her and even with them discarded her durability is inadequate on average) and will most definitely not be ORKOing bosses.

Yes, there is a ballistae there and I'm not sure she can reasonably survive even a single round from it, much less take any other enemy attacks.

If Florina takes the Lyn Mode robe, the ballista will aim at Lyn instead. I barely gave Lyn any training in her own mode so that may be the reason why.

[General Horace]

seth literally sucks up all the exp, I attempted to give other units as much exp as possible, but units like artur i wanted for another warper just didn't pan out because of not being able to keep up.

that being said, i think seth is a special case, others like fe7 marcus or frederick are nowhere close to him

the only time i could have used another nonseth/saleh combat unit was endgame killing lyon which was still possible with critrig

and yeah all franz did was kill a dude in the first zombie chapter and be a ferrybot. his stats are still pretty comparable to seth if you use both equally anyway even lategame

if i went ephraim route a unit like cormag would definately be used, although he's more or less a prepremote with his bases and level regardless

edit: wrt franz the run is pretty old so i kind of forget what he did lol, i remember he was pretty blessed though, and that impacted his performance

Edited April 6, 2013 by General Horace

[Chiki]

So Horace, do you think Seth is an exp drain?

[Espinosa]

Seth pretty much solos the game with a Javelin, assisted by Saleh's Warp in Eirika route (and hopefully a blessed enough Artur in Ephraim's). With units like Eir!Gerik, Eph!Duessel and Eph!Cormag, you usually don't really wish other units could be trained more. If you take Ephraim's route, I think the Cavs have a bigger role there, because sometimes in Gheb's map you'll have enemy units getting lured and blocking Seth's path, and you'll want some competent fighters for the Phantom Ship/Fluorspar routs (Duessel and Cormag are mostly enough for backup), but good luck getting folks like Franz, Forde and Kyle trained when Seth is necessary to keep your turn count lowest in literally every single chapter.

It IS possible to give bosskills to units other than Seth, and that can make said units better; however, the value of this investment is questionable if you ask me, as one trained Seth who ate all of the game's bosses works more effectively than a mediocre Seth and another Cav you tried to grow. For example, for some of the later clears, you just Warp your -/20 Seth and ORKO the boss with Audhulma/Killing Edge. If Seth isn't good enough, you'd need more Warps. Seth is also the only one not having any trouble with weapon ranks on such a fast-paced run (fast-paced due to Seth being around).

[Snowy_One]

Sorry for taking so long. Life has been hectic and annoying.

If they're able to become competent fighters without early-game boss kills, then surely there is no problem in giving them to Titania, should you be using her?

They aren't pre-promoted Jeigans with the benefit of having been promoted from the getgo and the disadvantage of getting basically no EXP per kill.

Besides the first 2 chapters (and Chapter 4) where she ORKOes basically everything at base, she can quite easily be used to weaken enemies for your other units, not only giving her a small amount of EXP (1-6 usually), but helping your scrubs get to level. Also there are some spots in the later chapters where you're SOL if you don't use her, like Chapters 7 (taking the left to some extent, none of your other units can do that, especially the Knights unless you have a really blessed Bloyd) and Chapter 8 (choking a point).

These chapters are perfectly beatable without using Titania. The fact that you think she's required suggests to me that you haven't tried to attempt such a thing though.

So mounted units might not always be better than their unmounted counterparts (generally, I find a lot of them have worse stats), but their class advantages give significant reason to use them over unmounted units.

Their 'class advantage' is some extra movement and the ability to keep moving. Things that matter the most in LTC but not as much elsewhere. This is what I mean by people drooling over movement and not even being able to think in terms other than 'OMG MOVEMENT DA BEST EVA'. You're incapable of reviewing units based on their stats and utility aspects, only on their movement and LTC implications.

So you get an awesome unit who can survive on her base stats for eh, 40% of the game and helps feed kills to your weaker units when they can't really fend for themselves. But there's one problem. The only way she can keep up after that great initial stretch is EXP. Her initial EXP game is horrendous (although it gets half-decent around say, Chapter 9), and feeding her BEXP later on is very costly. What is a Titania user to do?

Not use her because she deprives the team of large amounts of EXP? This isn't communist FE. Titania doesn't get a 'fair' share of kills and BEXP. Titania's kills have to be taken from someone else, and they deprive the team of a lot of EXP for no gain at all. Maybe in 0% growths where units don't get stronger, but that's not normal (in case you didn't notice).

We have tried to find other methods. Guess what? Nothing else works. Anything else will almost certainly have holes that trivialize everything or will just be a modified version of what we're already doing.

Why do you think drafts are turn-count based? It's the only way it works.

Well, gee. It sounds like, to me, you're complaining that any new method of tiering won't be perfect at first and needs debate and refinement... and thusly shouldn't be used because it needs debate and refinement.

Here's the thing. I KNOW LTC being the only tiering method is bullshit. As I said earlier, the tier lists back at gamefaqs were functioning tier lists that, while not perfect, managed to exist and hold their own. Maybe they weren't perfectly ordered, or had holes in them, BUT THAT'S WHAT DEBATE IS FOR! Without it there is no reason why Narga or someone shouldn't just plop down a list and say 'this is the character ranking'.

Who fucking cares? I don't give a damn how people play. Tier lists aren't supposed to reflect what people do when they're just doing what they want. They're supposed to reflect how a person would play when trying to beat the game in a reasonable amount of time with their available resources. Any tier list for any game isn't going to be relevant 100% of the time to any given player.

So... You don't care how people play, yet you want to make a tier list? You don't care if people actually go out of their way to make Reyson refresh four people every turn, but you want to make a tier list? You don't care if people bother supporting Zihark with Muarim, but you want to make a tier list? And you see the justification for this as 'when trying to beat it'? Well, guess what. EVERYONE who plays the game is trying to beat it! EVERYONE wants to beat it in a reasonable amount of time. EVERYONE wants to use their resources to the best. The only time they're not is when doing something for laughs or to see supports or similar things. Even if that person uses ****ing Rolf they are only doing so because they think Rolf can help them. They may be wrong, but the reason why they're doing it is the same...

And you're tossing that out? ALL OF THAT OUT? Because you feel the only standard to rank by is when the player is going balls-to-the-wall LTC drive? As I said earlier, if you want a LTC list, make an LTC list, but acknowledge that it is an LTC list with flaws and limitations and don't try and tell me that it's a valid tier list for anything other than LTC, because it simply is NOT.

I wasn't insulting you, but now I will: Are you literate?

Considering that I'm replying to you, I'm either literate or wealthy enough to hire people to be literate for me. This doesn't change the fact that you just heavily implied that people who disagree with those tiering standards are those things as well.

You focus on raw exp too much. LTC tier lists don't care about that. Titania has the greatest ability to clear the maps with fewer turns, and we don't care how many kills she gets. The only time where we'd care about the lost exp for other units as a problem is if it made later maps take noticeably more turns to finish. If this happens (as is the case with some Jeigans, or with too much overuse), they Jeigan may actually be ranked lower, but this isn't the case for Titania, since there's BEXP and units can still get enough kills on their own to keep their levels up.

What is it about this you don't understand? I really cannot see what is missing.

I edited it so that it's more accurate. And I DO understand. I just find the concept of LTC tiering to be utterly ridiculous and a horrible method for making a tier list that's relevant to the average player.

If other units get these kills, we're depriving Titania of levels. Why are we sandbagging Titania so much?

Because she's an overrated unit who brings only one unique advantage to one unique style of play that would not, and should not, be the only one used.

Tell me how a tier list based on exp gain would work. Really, I want to hear this. I think the idea would fall apart and not work at all, but you seem to have something going. Let's hear it.

Quite simple really. The 'goal' is to get a team with as strong combat possible (on average) throughout the entire game. Since the focus is on team strength rather than bashing through, getting the weaker members of the team leveled up becomes a huge benefit, while having other units shoot ahead on level ends up becoming a determent since the team on the whole isn't as strong even though one unit is, on the whole, better. Before you say it, yes, Titania would be strong still. But since the focus is on team strength, not on individual strength, she wouldn't be used as much for the betterment of the team.

Oh hey. New tiering method and it only took me a few minutes to go from scratch to concept. If I felt it could actually go anywhere, I could bother to refine it (what actually makes the team 'stronger'), cover up holes (what about pre-promoted and Shinon/Gatrie?), and the like, but I don't feel it will go anywhere other than the 'mocking' bin since it's not LTC focused.

And yes, as stated, we have tried other things. Or, people kept criticizing our standard as "not the only way," but no one could ever come up with a way to do it just as effectively, much less better.

I noticed you conveniently ignored my point about a 20/20 Titania. Snowy, get your head out of your ass and realize that raw exp gain means nothing. If you keep telling us our LTC tier lists are problematic because they don't take exp gain into account, we will never be able to take you seriously.

There wasn't anything to say. Even a 20/20 Rolf would be 'good' if he came in chapter 1. But let me ask you this. If you had a 20/20 Titania and needed to raise up Oscar, Boyd, Ike, and Marcia to get a healthy LTC count, would you still have Titania get kills even though she gets, literally, nothing out of them? Or would you try to raise up those other units and try to use Titania rarely, if ever, at all?

Yea I knew about that list but I wasn't really counting it because it was poorly thought out. Like Reggie said, the fact that everyone disagreed does not necessarily mean that everyone but you is close-minded In fact it's technically more likely that it's the other way around.

I should expand on that. The "utility/flexibility" section was strictly supports (and like, Reyson I think) and you were trying to claim that that was somehow worth being weighted equally with combat and efficiency (because you tiered the units overall based on their average of the 3 sections). That was strictly a bad idea and if a third of your tiering is practically useless then it's really not a very good list overall. This would not be an example of a metric that is better than turncounts for measuring unit performance.

I also stated that the 'tiering' was nothing more than the average of all three scores and that people should look to the individual scores for the reasons why.

Also, remember, I am only one person. I can only review so much and, maybe, someone could have gone and argued 'well, maybe Ike's score should be lower since he can't rescue' or something. Heck, one person did and even resulted in a change. One that didn't get followed through on because of the people whining that it wasn't LTC focused and hating on the third category, but a change none-the-less.

Why does this matter if she was still the top of your tier list? You're still admitting that she's the best unit in the game lol.

First off, not every character was tiered. You can argue that it wasn't likely another unit would score higher, sure, but they weren't tiered yet.

Secondly, she wasn't 'OMGWTFNOONECANCOMPETEORQUESTIONHER!' Other units were better than her in individual things, just not better than her on the

whole.

Thirdly, she only scored a .16 higher than the next runner-up, Oscar. So it wasn't a matter of her 'dominating'.

FE10 Geoffrey (joins in first half of the game, amazing stats, below average in most rankings). Others will qualify depending on where you draw the line on the three categories. In any case, you've yet to say why considering a mount a big advantage in efficiency is bad.

Also has availability problems if I recall.

[Narga_Rocks]

So....you aren't going to comment on playthrough proof that you can get

a: everyone to a high enough level to plow through the game

b: a massive amount of bexp left over to create an extra unit to stomp if you want

c: Titania up to 20/11 by chapter 18

d: Mia to be good

all at the same time?

I suppose that makes sense, though, seeing how it basically nullifies your whole argument that training Titania cripples your team. Ignoring these points is much more convenient if you want to continue the argument.

[Constable Reggie]

First off, not every character was tiered. You can argue that it wasn't likely another unit would score higher, sure, but they weren't tiered yet.

Secondly, she wasn't 'OMGWTFNOONECANCOMPETEORQUESTIONHER!' Other units were better than her in individual things, just not better than her on the

whole.

Thirdly, she only scored a .16 higher than the next runner-up, Oscar. So it wasn't a matter of her 'dominating'.

Uh, who else is going to beat her if even Oscar can't do it? Chumps like Makalov?

Also, you should try looking at your own scores, because besides Reyson and Kieran's .25 combat advantage, she beats or ties everyone else in each individual ranking. So I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that others were better than her in individual things.

Aside from Oscar, the gap is .75 from the next highest unit, which only gets bigger as the list goes down. If that doesn't imply "dominating", I don't know what does.

I still find it funny that you decry the use of Titania because she's not as great as everyone thinks then you still rank her the best unit in the game.

Also, remember, I am only one person. I can only review so much and, maybe, someone could have gone and argued 'well, maybe Ike's score should be lower since he can't rescue' or something. Heck, one person did and even resulted in a change. One that didn't get followed through on because of the people whining that it wasn't LTC focused and hating on the third category, but a change none-the-less.

Why would we debate individual score changes when the entire concept in the first place was flawed?

Edited April 7, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, it is possible that if he ever bothered to finish his list, he'd go "wait, Titania is too high so lets modify all her numbers so she's like 10th or something." I mean, you never know since it's not finished.

Also, there's the matter of opinions changing over time. That list was a while ago.

[arvilino]

Their 'class advantage' is some extra movement and the ability to keep moving. Things that matter the most in LTC but not as much elsewhere. This is what I mean by people drooling over movement and not even being able to think in terms other than 'OMG MOVEMENT DA BEST EVA'. You're incapable of reviewing units based on their stats and utility aspects, only on their movement and LTC implications.

There's more advantages to Canto and higher movement than just LTC. It allows a unit to be used where a foot unit with the same statistics would die(e.g. attacking and retreating out of enemies attack range, rescuing and retreating), it allows them to clear up space for another unit to attack after attacking an enemy, allows them to get around an enemy so if an enemy(I don't know say a general or a Sniper) has 3 of your characters adjacent the mounted unit is more likely to reach the open spot than a foot unit. It also allows them to attack enemies starting from outside their attack range.

Also movement and canto contribute to utility don't they? They're such a big advantage that I actually think the removal of canto/re-move in FE13(and their absence in FE11 and FE12) was for the best.

Edited April 7, 2013 by arvilino

[Florete]

As I said earlier, the tier lists back at gamefaqs were functioning tier lists that, while not perfect, managed to exist and hold their own.

And what were they based on?

EVERYONE who plays the game is trying to beat it! EVERYONE wants to beat it in a reasonable amount of time. EVERYONE wants to use their resources to the best.

ITT Snowy speaks for everyone.

None of this is true, except possibly the first one. Plenty of people don't care how long they take as long as they have fun. Plenty of people drop their resources on the units they prefer over anyone else.

Even if that person uses ****ing Rolf they are only doing so because they think Rolf can help them.

I've used Rolf because I wanted to knowing he wouldn't (comparatively) help me with anything. Rolf for High tier?

Considering that I'm replying to you, I'm either literate or wealthy enough to hire people to be literate for me. This doesn't change the fact that you just heavily implied that people who disagree with those tiering standards are those things as well.

You believing the bold is what made me ask the question.

I edited it so that it's more accurate. And I DO understand. I just find the concept of LTC tiering to be utterly ridiculous and a horrible method for making a tier list that's relevant to the average player.

No tier list that can claim a semblance of accuracy will be relevant to the "average" player. Such a concept is too broad.

Because she's an overrated unit who brings only one unique advantage to one unique style of play that would not, and should not, be the only one used.

She's overrated because you believe she is. That's your only logic.

Quite simple really. The 'goal' is to get a team with as strong combat possible (on average) throughout the entire game. Since the focus is on team strength rather than bashing through, getting the weaker members of the team leveled up becomes a huge benefit, while having other units shoot ahead on level ends up becoming a determent since the team on the whole isn't as strong even though one unit is, on the whole, better. Before you say it, yes, Titania would be strong still. But since the focus is on team strength, not on individual strength, she wouldn't be used as much for the betterment of the team.

Oh hey. New tiering method and it only took me a few minutes to go from scratch to concept. If I felt it could actually go anywhere, I could bother to refine it (what actually makes the team 'stronger'), cover up holes (what about pre-promoted and Shinon/Gatrie?), and the like, but I don't feel it will go anywhere other than the 'mocking' bin since it's not LTC focused.

This tier list would be useless because it would be a conglomeration of a bunch of names of units who can all do the same thing. The point of going for turns is to create a standard by which unit strengths can actually be judged and separated. This idea removes that. If the list is based on making units strong and nothing about them matters except what they're like when strong, you'd be better off tiering the chapters based on difficulty than the units clearing them.

Also Narga's post. Using Titania doesn't prevent having a full team that breaks the game in two.

There wasn't anything to say. Even a 20/20 Rolf would be 'good' if he came in chapter 1. But let me ask you this. If you had a 20/20 Titania and needed to raise up Oscar, Boyd, Ike, and Marcia to get a healthy LTC count, would you still have Titania get kills even though she gets, literally, nothing out of them? Or would you try to raise up those other units and try to use Titania rarely, if ever, at all?

If I needed to raise them to keep turn counts low, I would do so in the least costly way possible - something we, you know, already do. I wouldn't be at all afraid to use Titania when she makes things faster. Essentially nothing would change compared to normal except possibly attempting to feed more boss kills to other units if it doesn't take extra time to do so.

[dondon151]

snowy, man up and admit that you're wrong

[Snowy_One]

And what were they based on?

Various things. They were around for a long time and a lot of times what they ended up being based on mattered more on who the debaters were. You could get one character moving up because of LTC, while two others were being compared on combat. It wasn't perfect. It wasn't 'less frustrating' than what is here. But it existed. A tier list in which LTC wasn't the only, or even main, standard. That's why I know 'LTC is the only way to tier' is crap. Because it if that were true, the Gamefaqs tiers simply could not have existed.

ITT Snowy speaks for everyone.

None of this is true, except possibly the first one. Plenty of people don't care how long they take as long as they have fun. Plenty of people drop their resources on the units they prefer over anyone else.

Well, these things are kind of obvious, you know. Players don't go 'oh, hey, we should dump a ton of +STR drops onto Boyd' just because they can. They do so because they think that, by doing so, they will be able to take advantage of his high strength even more. Is it optimal? On paper no it isn't. Is it a good choice? Certainly not from an outsiders point of view. Was it done because the player thought that was the best use of the resource? You bet ya.

Even people who boss abuse don't just dally around for ten turns after the boss is dead unless they think that they'll get some kind of reward for it. If they staff abuse they do so because they value having a high-leveled staff-user more than the lost turns. Everyone who is playing seriously wants to beat the game in a reasonable amount of time. Everyone who is playing seriously wants to use their resources to the best. They may be wrong about how to accomplish those goals or attach different values, but at the core, they still want the same thing.

No tier list that can claim a semblance of accuracy will be relevant to the "average" player. Such a concept is too broad.

How so? We know the 'average' player will do certain things, such as try to progress towards the end, look for items, and other such things. We also know that they will shy away from other things, like having mages tank warriors and the like. They won't all use the same strategy, but they aren't dumbasses either. So why are you assuming that it's impossible? Give me one example of something that an average player might do that couldn't be accounted for in a tier list.

This tier list would be useless because it would be a conglomeration of a bunch of names of units who can all do the same thing. The point of going for turns is to create a standard by which unit strengths can actually be judged and separated. This idea removes that. If the list is based on making units strong and nothing about them matters except what they're like when strong, you'd be better off tiering the chapters based on difficulty than the units clearing them.

Also Narga's post. Using Titania doesn't prevent having a full team that breaks the game in two.

Almost all units can clear the map. Clearly turncount doesn't matter as all units are capable of lowering turns. Oh wait. Maybe certain units are better or worse at fighting than others? Maybe certain units require more effort than others? Or some are simply more potent than others? Gee... It's almost like it's a valid way to tier units and you're just plugging your ears and shouting 'NO! IT CAN'T WORK CAUSE LTC IS THE ONLY VALID WAY! LALALALALALA!'

And here is the ultimate kicker. I came up with a different method of tiering characters that could be just as valid as LTC on the spot with little prior thought. I came up with a whole different method to tier them in that topic that wasn't some sort of personal rating system. And it got shot down. And you're voicing your opposition here. It's almost like, *le gasp* we're the same. Just having different feelings on what constitutes a 'valid tier list' and you're being met with one you DON'T like!

If I needed to raise them to keep turn counts low, I would do so in the least costly way possible - something we, you know, already do. I wouldn't be at all afraid to use Titania when she makes things faster. Essentially nothing would change compared to normal except possibly attempting to feed more boss kills to other units if it doesn't take extra time to do so.

So, in your mind, LTC above all else even when one unit literally gets nothing out of those kills. Don't you think some people, especially people not obsessed with LTC, might not do that?

snowy, man up and admit that you're wrong

I've been defending my stance that LTC as a tiering method is crap since before I even came to this site. Why the heck do you think I would change it now?

Edited April 7, 2013 by Snowy_One

[dondon151]

I've been defending my stance that LTC as a tiering method is crap since before I even came to this site. Why the heck do you think I would change it now?

because your stance has been thoroughly refuted in every possible way, even when the opposition has made serious concessions.

at some point you have to recognize that you're wrong...