Tier list playthrough

[Redwall]

I think a reasonable way of defining overkill offense/defense is to say that it is characterized by diminishing returns: pouring additional +Mt forges/tonics/whatever onto an overkill character will neither increase reliability nor decrease turn counts (which are a resource, even in a brisk-play tier list). Following this way of defining it, overkill is not bad, but it can in general be orthogonal to the goal of securing reliable low-turn clears.

[charlie_]

I think it's less that overkilling is bad, it's just that other characters kill well enough while contributing in other ways as well.

[ZemZem]

I also agree that Sumia and Cordelia (well, at least Sumia) are better than Lon'qu.

Anyway Aeine, good luck. Also, are you using Cherche?

[Da Bear]

I also agree that Sumia and Cordelia (well, at least Sumia) are better than Lon'qu.

Anyway Aeine, good luck. Also, are you using Cherche?

Why would he use Cherche? lol she doesn't have Galeforce she's utterly useless.

[Chiki]

I think a reasonable way of defining overkill offense/defense is to say that it is characterized by diminishing returns: pouring additional +Mt forges/tonics/whatever onto an overkill character will neither increase reliability nor decrease turn counts (which are a resource, even in a brisk-play tier list). Following this way of defining it, overkill is not bad, but it can in general be orthogonal to the goal of securing reliable low-turn clears.

Thanks.

You have to follow the teir list rules (whether or not they make sense) and then prove it wrong . Abusing rescue or something gives people an excuse to throw out your entire argument.

Rescue doesn't change fighting ability though (which is what I'm arguing about).

Edited May 7, 2013 by Olwen

[Jediabiwan]

Rescue doesn't change fighting ability though (which is what I'm arguing about).

Well fighting and clearing ability is generally reflected in turncounts as well which warp disrupts. I know I'd be interested to see how a focus on galeforce turncount turned out compared to other people following the tier list rules.

[Elieson]

I'm more interested in seeing how quickly he gets Galeforce

1. To prove that Sully, Panne etc. have overkill offense and defense on hard mode, and what matters is getting your Galeforces up to par early on.
2. To prove that what matters in normal FE tier lists does not apply in FE13--I will not be training Sully or Panne at all in this playthrough. I will be using Sumia, Cordelia, and some others.

How are you going to argue 1 with 2 in effect. You can't possibly prove that Sully/Panne have overkill combat if you aren't using them.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Elieson

[Baldrick]

I'll show that it's all affordable.

Maybe I've got the premise behind the tier list wrong, but isn't consuming less resources better? If your aim is to prove Sumia and Cordelia > Sully and Paine, then you need to prove Sumia with resources >> Sully without resources. Allowing inefficient strategies because the resources are there to be used sounds like a slippery slope to me. Like Redwall said, turns are a resource, and you get an unlimited supply of them. So what's to stop someone arguing Donnel should be SS tier because he eventually becomes the strongest unit, and it's legitimate to spend a million turns babying him because we can afford to?

If the tier list cares about conserving turns but not any other resource, then it is an LTC tier list. That can't be right, because everyone's saying it's not an LTC tier list (not trying to be facetious, just trying to work out the logic).

[HeroMystic]

I'll do Paralogues then. And sure, they're allowed. I see no reason to listen to SDS. I have no idea why he thinks it's good manners to ban Rescue. Maybe because he can't comprehend strategies which get one low turns.

From what I understand, Rescue-skipping is banned because it's uninteresting, with the side-effect of inflating specific characters because they can perform this very specific task.

[Chiki]

It's definitely stupid not to use all the resources you have.

[eclipse]

I'm gonna reserve judgment until I see stats, turns, and explanations. I trust you don't mind if I ask about why you did certain things?

[Jediabiwan]

It's definitely stupid not to use all the resources you have.

I still don't see why you're ignoring one of the big qualifiers of the tier list when the whole point of this playthrough seems to be generating meaningful info that can be applicable to discussion of the current tier list. I assume you're not using spotpass/barracks/event tile items.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Jediabiwan

[Chiki]

No, I don't mind.

Why would you not wanna use all the resources you own? To have a pretty convoy? Trust me, it's incredibly stupid. I don't understand why you wouldn't.

Prologue: 3 turns

Frederick goes north, then east, then attacks the boss while pairing up with Lissa. Chrom pairs up with Mio, and Mio attacks a myrmidon on turn 1 from range with Thunder. Mio takes a Vulnerary the next two turns to kill the enemies that Fred didn't.

Mio: level 3, 55 exp

Chrom: level 1, 15 exp

Fred: level 1, 50 exp

Chrom not having the time to get exp for Lucina is troubling, but oh well.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Olwen

[eclipse]

Question 1: What asset/flaw does Mio have?

[Chiki]

+Speed, -HP.

Chapter 1: 3 turns

Frederick takes Lissa and runs to a corner in the south after snatching her Vulnerary away. Chrom pairs up with Mio and they attack a myrmidon with Thunder. Next turn, Lissa gives Frederick to Sully and Frederick hands a Vulnerary to Mio. Virion runs away. Mio heals up in a bush. They finish up the boss on the final turn after Frederick weakened the boss.

Mio: level 7 30 exp

Chrom: level 1 40 exp

Frederick: level 1 55 exp

[Chiki]

Chapter 2: 3 turns

Mio and Frederick go both while carrying Chrom and Sully respectively. I can't really say much more than that lol because the strategy is too basic. Frederick got the boss kill on turn 3.

Mio: level 9 69 exp

Chrom: level 1 70 exp

Frederick: level 2 5 exp

[eclipse]

The first post seems to indicate that you're not going to use Sully. Is there any reason why you're carting her around at this point?

[Chiki]

I meant not training her. She gives okay pair up bonuses and I don't think it puts her above Sumia and Cordelia if she's a good pair up partner, lol.

My Sully has 5 exp.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Olwen

[Chiki]

Chapter 3: 3 turns

Sully takes Frederick and goes as far as she can to the northwest door. Chrom recruits Kellam, Kellam pairs up with Stahl, and they go northwest as well. Vaike pairs up with Chrom to exchange him with Kellam next turn. Mio goes northwest alone. Stahl and Mio are positioned in such a way that they protect Chrom from damage. Mio kills the Door Key archer on the enemy phase and sends it to the convoy, then Vaike exchanges Kellam with Chrom. Stahl goes up to the Door, switches with Chrom who gets a Door Key, and Chrom opens the door. Sully charges. Frederick kills the boss next turn. Sumia got exp during this chapter as well.

Mio: Level 10, 26 exp

Chrom: Level 2, 5 exp

Frederick: Level 2, 22 exp

Sumia: Level 1, 48 exp

[eclipse]

Next question (kind of trivial, but I'm curious): Did you manage to pick up the Hammer?

EDIT: What was Sumia doing on this map? I can see her pairing up with someone for a Speed boost.

Edited May 8, 2013 by eclipse

[Chiki]

No, I couldn''t. :< I killed the boss with an Iron Lance.

All she did was kill an archer and get some exp by attacking a knight with the Javelin.

I'm now debating on whether to go on to Paralogue 1 or Chapter 4.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Olwen

[eclipse]

Oh gosh, good luck with the later armors! Anyway, I think what you do depends on what you plan on doing with Lon'qu. If you're going to use him seriously, you'll want him before Paralogue 1. If he's just going to be put on the back burner, then, uh, get a spare Bronze Lance from Donnel?

[Chiki]

I don't know if I could find any use to Lon'qu at all really. And I think I might go to Paralogue 1 once I change my Avatar's class for some extra exp.

Chapter 4: 4 turns

I took my time with this chapter to get Sumia some nice exp--thank god this isn't an LTC run and I can take my time as I want as long as it isn't too slow. She was able to ORKO armors with one strength level and 2HKO Lucina at base. But I took my time regardless because the point of this run is to show how successful Sumia can be with just Tonics, Forges and Pair ups. Frederick paired up with Sumia and went northeast then north to Lucina. Miriel and Mio went north. Vaike and Chrom took a lone barbarian.

Chrom: level 2, 69 exp

Mio: level 11, 16 exp

Sumia: level 3, 93 exp

Edited May 8, 2013 by Olwen

[Da Bear]

*eye twitch*

[Chiki]

This isn't Skype. If you wanna complain, then complain.