Mind if I Try to Start a Religious Debate?

[Redwall]

I'm not religious, but Pascal's Wager seems like an unusual reason to convert. If indeed the Abrahamic God exists, then surely He'd see the insincerity in the hearts of those who believe out of fear of an eternal spanking.

[Anouleth]

Does that mean that if I sin, but I'm insincere about it, it doesn't count?

[BlueFire]

I'm not religious, but Pascal's Wager seems like an unusual reason to convert. If indeed the Abrahamic God exists, then surely He'd see the insincerity in the hearts of those who believe out of fear of an eternal spanking.

Exactly. I don't think I'll ever truly believe in Christianity unless some miracle occurs that can prove that it isn't man-made.

Also, there are people who convert because believing in a religion makes life easier to understand by providing them answers to their questions on the supernatural. However, many people aren't Christian because those answers are not proven fact.

[Redwall]

Does that mean that if I sin, but I'm insincere about it, it doesn't count?

If there's no mens rea, I don't see why it should be held against you.

[Quick]

I'm a person who believes in an infinite entity but not in any divine creed. Many of the things the Bible says contradicts the 10 commandments, such as: "Thou shall not kill" and then tells people to kill all the firstborn males in Egypt just to prove a damn point. As for Islam, the religion definitely (at least in my research) not a religion of peace. I know many people who are Muslims who are nice, but the religion itself has flaws. Pre-marriage sex is punishable by death, apostasy is punishable by death, women are considered to be inferior, the list goes on and on. I am scared just to reveal to my parents that I don't believe in Islam because of the Islamic law, but I guess any convert will have trouble telling their parents that they converted.

Not trying to offend anybody here, just want to tell you what I got out of the two religions from the research I have gathered and am still gathering.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Quick

[eclipse]

I'm a person who believes in an infinite entity but not in any divine creed. Many of the things the Bible says contradicts the 10 commandments, such as: "Thou shall not kill" and then tells people to kill all the firstborn males in Egypt just to prove a damn point. As for Islam, the religion definitely (at least in my research) not a religion of peace. I know many people who are Muslims who are nice, but the religion itself has flaws. Pre-marriage sex is punishable by death, apostasy is punishable by death, women are considered to be inferior, the list goes on and on. I am scared just to reveal to my parents that I don't believe in Islam because of the Islamic law, but I guess any convert will have trouble telling their parents that they converted.

Not trying to offend anybody here, just want to tell you what I got out of the two religions from the research I have gathered and am still gathering.

Uh, pretty sure it was God that handled the firstborn in Egypt thing? I'll let the Muslims comment on what you said about them. Either way, if you're going to criticize religion, make sure you're doing so from a factually correct standpoint, or it'll only incite ill will.

[Espinosa]

Exactly. I don't think I'll ever truly believe in Christianity unless some miracle occurs that can prove that it isn't man-made.

Also, there are people who convert because believing in a religion makes life easier to understand by providing them answers to their questions on the supernatural. However, many people aren't Christian because those answers are not proven fact.

I'm sure somebody can use their publicly manifested religious sentiment as an excuse not conform to certain social/cultural norms or expectations, like saying they won't read Shakespeare because they're too busy praying but instead watch a sitcom while chewing on fast food, but similarly, "science disproved religion" is nowhere near as good a way to stop being concerned about the ultimate destination of humankind, and I've always thought the latter to be more important.

iirc the traditional Christian explanation why Jews could get away with all the terrible things they did to other nations (that still serve as events for celebration nowadays, e.g. Purim) is because the influence of the surrounding pagan cultures was repugnant to the one God, and the laws prior to Jesus were made to enable the Jews to survive in that hostile environment, preserving the word of God. When we find these deeds horrifying, we do so looking at them from the prism of the modern Western culture - a fully recognisable child of Christianity, which modified what we read in the Old Testament considerably. The Jews are still concerned primarily about their own community, even the non-religious ones abiding the laws, so you're welcome to address your criticism in the proper direction and be accused of anti-semitism - not a worthwhile way of spending your time I am sure, but at least you'd be less historically disoriented.

[deleted35362]

I think something important to remember is that science isn't absolute, and very few findings actually come to be called laws. Science doesn't disprove religion, but it's more believable in my opinion because it's experimented. some religious people like to say "what makes science so much more crideible than what we believe??" well, there you go. Scientific experimentation is how we continually work to understand our universe, but almost every generalization made in sciencce is theory. Religion, on the other hand, likes to say "This is what's true and that's that."

...Just wanted to bring this up.

[Raven]

So yeah, religion, no. I hold little to nothing against it except when it comes to the extremists who try to hurt others in the name of god or whatever. Pisses me the fuck off.

Don't preach to me, don't try to convert me, don't tell me I can't do something because some book written thousands of years ago says I can't, because I'm not interested. I live life by my own rules; I don't need a religion or anything else to tell me what's right and wrong. Life's too short to live by the word of some deity that had a book written on its behalf and hasn't even bothered to try to prove it actually exists. I don't know if there is such a thing (I seriously doubt it), nor do I care.

Do what you want with your life, but don't judge others because they are doing something your book says shouldn't be done. Oh, and the extremists of any and all religions. They should lock themselves up in a single space and then they can all go to paradise together.

[Tamanoir]

So yeah, religion, no. I hold little to nothing against it except when it comes to the extremists who try to hurt others in the name of god or whatever. Pisses me the fuck off.

Don't preach to me, don't try to convert me, don't tell me I can't do something because some book written thousands of years ago says I can't, because I'm not interested. I live life by my own rules; I don't need a religion or anything else to tell me what's right and wrong. Life's too short to live by the word of some deity that had a book written on its behalf and hasn't even bothered to try to prove it actually exists. I don't know if there is such a thing (I seriously doubt it), nor do I care.

Do what you want with your life, but don't judge others because they are doing something your book says shouldn't be done. Oh, and the extremists of any and all religions. They should lock themselves up in a single space and then they can all go to paradise together.

That's basically my opinion on it. I don't care if God exists or not, but it isn't important to me.

To be fair, atheists who try to bash religion all the tipme are also condemnable.

I think that opposing Religion and Science is a false statement. They concerns totally differents domain.

Science, at its core, is about doubting about the world in order to explain it. It's about observing how our world works, and it is subject to change. That's what I love about it : doubting about his world may be scary at time, but it allows you to be truly open-minded.

Religion is about faith. It doesn't really accept doubt, and don't try to be proven by fact, because it's not what's important. That's becase you don't have true proof, and may never finds it that faith is is such a great thing. It should help you to live better, even if too often, it's used to constrain people and controlling their live.

You have to separate the Religion and the institution, and I have nothing against the Religion itself, but the Institution have commited a lot of sins, and mainly is pretty hypocrite (mainly Catholics (Priests not being able to marry, and the Inquisition), Protestants are usually better).

Also, the main opponents of Religion isn't/wasn't Science, but Psychanalysis, who isn't a Science, or at least not as provable as others (This may be the occasion of another debate). Religion is more in the field of Philosophy. That's more notable with the oriental religion.

Also, even if you don't believe in God, I'm absolutely sure human beings have to believe in something, or else they couldn't live. For example, my faith go in humanity. I'm convinced that people are fundamentally good (or at least not evil), because else they're no hope left...

Jus a last question ; How many of you (Religious, Atheists, or others), are believer by choice ? Is it just because of your family, the social norms, or fo you truly have faith ? (That count also for atheists, once again. I was raised in an atheist family, but I consider myself more of an agnostic now. because, once again, doubting is my philosophy).

That's my secret belief that the more vocal are first trying to convince themselves. You wouldn(t try to convince me so much, if you were so sure of yourself.

[Dwalin2010]

Jus a last question ; How many of you (Religious, Atheists, or others), are believer by choice ?

I am a believer by choice. In fact, my family tried to convince me for years there is no God, I was baptized only when I was a teenager.

[Rewjeo]

But believing isn't something you choose to do. You can't just wake up and say, "Oh, I'm gonna be Muslim today and Hindu tomorrow!" It's not like Dwalin chose to believe that because he wanted to spite his family or something.

[Espinosa]

Religious faith is an effort of will to follow certain rules and remember certain truths. It's definitely a choice to make it explicit for yourself instead of hesitating indecisively or deceiving yourself.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Espinosa

[Dwalin2010]

It's not like Dwalin chose to believe that because he wanted to spite his family or something.

No, it's not because I wanted to spite my family. I mean, they initially didn't agree, but it's not like I chose religion as a tool to prove my "independence" from them.

[Quick]

Uh, pretty sure it was God that handled the firstborn in Egypt thing? I'll let the Muslims comment on what you said about them. Either way, if you're going to criticize religion, make sure you're doing so from a factually correct standpoint, or it'll only incite ill will.

I knew that, haha, I think I only said people to kill since I got a few lines messed up, sorry. But isn't that worse? Why punish an innocent life that did no harm rather than directly punishing the Pharoah and the other oppressors in Egypt? I have no doubt that at least few of the firstborn males were infants who did nothing wrong, so why does God punish them? God isn't indirectly punishing them, He is directly punishing them.

Sorry I hate ending something off with me looking like an idiot, (not your fault) maybe I should've just dropped this.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Quick

[deleted35362]

Jus a last question ; How many of you (Religious, Atheists, or others), are believer by choice ? Is it just because of your family, the social norms, or fo you truly have faith?

I was raised to be religious. It failed. My parents don't know that yet, though, because they're assholes and they'll just go apeshit.

And now that you mention it, I even questioned all this shit that made no sense to me as a kid, but always got bullshit answers. My sisters, who are still going strong in faith, never questioned a thing. It really makes me wonder how religious people actually rationalize this stuff.

[pinkbubblegum]

It really makes me wonder how religious people actually rationalize this stuff.

Whatever function religion serves varies with each individual. In my opinion, people turn to religion because of some underlying need. A need for security, maybe a crutch in times of hardship. Everyone has reasons why they choose to believe in something that cannot be proven.

In my case I use religion as a means to relay my gratitude at the opportunity to be alive. The world's filled with so many great people and so many great things that in the back of my head, I can't help but to think 'Man. There must have been an omnipotent being out there that made all this possible!' I'm quite lax in terms of practicing my religion though. I haven't gone to mass in a really long time and like the others, I don't find The Bible as something to be taken literally.

I was raised Catholic and went to a Catholic school so I think my religion's served a rather good part of molding who I am, as well as my morals.

Admittedly... I think I've lived a pretty easy life so far. I don't think I've gone through anything tumultuous (Or maybe I already have but my easy-going nature prevents me from really brooding about things haha) so I might just be looking at things through rose-colored glasses or something?

[deleted35362]

^When I was younger, I would pray to god because my life sucked consistently. It didn't work, obviously.

Huh...I think you're onto something. You're like my polar opposite. I think the world's filled with so many terrible people out there and so many terrible things. I'm not too sure how this is linked to atheism save the notion of "if there's a god, why doesn't he just vaporize this shit or do something to make it...good?"

In religion's defense, the moralaity part is a plus, since kids need to be taught that it's bad to kill and steal, obviously. I might have ended up a criminal if not for that.

by the way, your avatar and name are making me want bubble gum. fml, THANKS Obama

[Raven]

I was taught morals and manners by my family and teachers. While some people live by religion, it is totally fine to enjoy a good, law-abiding life without the readings of an ancient book. However it's debatable whether it's easier to live with a book dictating how to live your life as opposed to doing what you want with no feeling of guilt for their actions (e.g. sex before marriage).

I find it ridiculous that people can say "I'm not going to let you stick your penis inside me until we are married despite sex being a totally natural thing for us humans to do because this here book says it's bad."

[Espinosa]

Europe is more secular right now than it's ever been and the shaming of people going on is nevertheless ridiculous. Think Strauss-Kahn, Berlusconi or Assange scandals. Everybody wants to be in the majority to be empowered, and the majority wants to boost its collective ego by proclaiming its superiority over the rare pariah (who may not even be interested in vocally protesting).

Edited May 10, 2013 by Espinosa

[eclipse]

I believe by choice. Going into why I believe is a really long, personal story.

[Guy Starwind]

Personally I also believe by choice. However, I'm always willing to listen to both sides.

[Tamanoir]

Well, I was by definition raised in a strange environment concerning religion. First, I live in Alsace, which for historical reasons, is still a religious part of France (Religion is teached on Public school, and priests are paid by the state instead of donations like everywhere in France). My parents are atheists, with more or less force. I'm more peacefull with this debate now. Nothing terribly bad happened to me, and I never felt the need of a God to live my life.

I do think that the world is pretty great, but I think it's better if no Gods are concerned.

Once again, I don't think that Religion is inherently good or bad, but it depends how it is used. If it's used to live a better life, then OK. If it's used to control others's life (Christianity in the middle ages), I have many problem with that (So I can dislike the religious institutions, but I don't dislike people for their religious beliefs. That seems overly cruel and unjustified to me).

I think if people separated the religion for their institutions (who care more about politics than faith), things will be better for everyone. Yeah, I hate the extremists of every religion, who goes against their own supposed cause (Each time you hear they talk, it makes their religion looks like the worst thing ever), but I won't hate someone just because he is a member of X religion.

And by "decide", I obviously didn't meant a rational decision, more like "do you feel the presence of an omnipotent force (that you can call God), or not ?".

And obviously, you can learn morals if you don't believe in God. An interresting fact, is that in Alsace, those in junior School who don't go in Religion Class, now have Morals Class instead. (When I was young, we were just dragging on, reading books or using computers...).

Edited May 11, 2013 by TendaSlime

[eclipse]

And by "decide", I obviously didn't meant a rational decision, more like "do you feel the presence of an omnipotent force (that you can call God), or not ?".

It depends on why you're asking this. It's one thing to be genuinely curious, which I'm fine with. If you're doing it for the purposes of "everyone point at the person claiming to feel God's presence and question/ridicule them 'cause they're delusional", it's not cool.

[deleted35362]

Eh, Eclipse? In what world would a functional human being come to this topic and ask a question like that just so they can designate who to fire away at? Especially considering that you're a staff member, so you can pretty much just ban whoever you want. I honestly can't even begin to imagine your thought processes.