Bearclaw (Sumia) vs. Randa (Cordelia)

[Da Bear]

I open.

Sumia vs. Cordelia. This matchup has been brought up several times, the current tier list has Sumia above Cordelia and rightfully so! Sumia has several leads, some more noticeable than others that make her superior.

But before we get this started I would like to make it clear that the following ground rules are placed:
[spoiler=rules]
Difficulty: Hard Mode. Lunatic and Lunatic+ are a bit too constraining for there to be a worthwhile tier list for it, and any lunatic tier list would likely be just a more extreme version of the current tier list.
Efficiency: We are moving at a brisk pace, but this isn't an absolute minimum LTC tier list. No "character <x> shaves a turn in chapter <y>" arguments here.
Paralogues: Assume all available are completed. Paralogues are done as early as possible. The more difficult child paralogues may be delayed due to map difficulty.
Barracks: Not allowed.
Skirmishes / DLC / Spotpass Battles/Shops: Not allowed.
Map Shopping: Allowed, but you may not buy Anna Shop special items.
Event Tiles: No items obtained from event tiles are allowed to be used. Supports / EXP gain can be pushed forward slightly by them, but otherwise no real impact.
Renown: Assume 0 renown start. That means the following items are obtainable via Renown at the following times:
Glass Sword (after Chapter 4)
Second Seal (after Paralogue 3)
Orsin's Hatchet (after Chapter 11)
Seed of Trust (4 maps after Chapter 13)
Levin Sword (6 maps after Seed of Trust)
Energy Drop (6 maps after Levin Sword)
Beast Killer (7 maps after Energy Drop)

Now to start.
Sumia's most obvious lead is availability. She comes at the beginning of Chapter 3 while Cordelia doesn't join until Chapter 7, after the combat has pretty much ended. So Sumia has 6 maps to gain a lead on Cordelia, both contribution-wise and stat-wise. Let's look at those maps!

Chapter 3: She's able to one-round a several enemies with a Frederick support, the bows hinder her that's for certain but she can easily gain a level and maybe some change before the map ends.

Paralogue 1: She's much better off here, Fred+Tonics makes her durability against non-archers pretty good and she doubles everything. Clean 1rkos on everything but the boss and flying with those resources as well.

Chapter 4: She can rush the boss just as well as anyone else.

Chapter 5: Flying makes her able to rush straight into the enemies and kill most of them, she's pretty much you're most useful unit when it comes to saving Ricken and Maribelle, she's also turning into one of your by this point.

Chapter 6: Everyone is useful in this map! Sumia can fly though making her more useful than almost any of your other units.

Chapter 7: Sumia continues to fly through the enemies, this time she can take out all the wyverns. Cordelia shows up too late to be of any use.

So at this point Sumia has been doing an amazing job of killing everything, how does Cordelia match up? Well let's see!

UNIT    CLASS  LV.XP HP ST MA SK SP LC DE RE SUPPORT
SUMIA PKN      11   25  10 5 18 20  14 8 11   B FREDERICK
CORDELIA PKN   7    25  9  3 13 14  9  8  8 

At first glance they're pretty even but then you see that Sumia has that B support with Frederick giving her 5 strength and defense, that's nice to have! So at this point Sumia has obvious leads in attack and defense her speed also allows her to double the rare enemy that Cordelia won't double.

Cordelia has a lower internal level which is nice for faster leveling but not that big of a lead. Cordelia's main problem right now is supports, or rather lack of them.

We also have two desert maps coming up. The latter of which gives a dracoshield. Either one of the pegs would like the dracoshield but I'll get more into that later.

As time progresses and Cordelia builds supports the gaps become a great deal less pronounced and while Fred's boosts will eventually become sub-par it's actually not that hard for Sumia to move on to Henry who will love the stats she gives and will give her stats that she really wants as well.

Sumia > Cordelia seems pretty obvious when you consider that Sumia is around longer and never really falls behind.

Edited May 15, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Junkhead]

I agree Sumia Cordelia because Sumia is really funny and cute and beautiful. She's such a nice girl.

Wish she didn't beat herself up as usual.

[Randa]

Ok so lets go.

The first point to be made is to decide on how many levels sumia will have gained.

Sumia's most obvious lead is availability. She comes at the beginning of Chapter 3 while Cordelia doesn't join until Chapter 7, after the combat has pretty much ended. So Sumia has 6 maps to gain a lead on Cordelia, both contribution-wise and stat-wise. Let's look at those maps!

Yes but she doesn't have the best bases making it hard to get exp early on.

Chapter 3: She's able to one-round a several enemies with a Frederick support, the bows hinder her that's for certain but she can easily gain a level and maybe some change before the map ends.

The issue with this level is that if you go left you face multiple archers that sumia wants to avoid at all cost. In addition we see multiple armor knights who pose a rather serious threat. I think she should get a level up but it will require some effort.

Paralogue 1: She's much better off here, Fred+Tonics makes her durability against non-archers pretty good and she doubles everything. Clean 1rkos on everything but the boss and flying with those resources as well.

Sumia is not entitled to the Fredrick support though. Vaike appreciates the defense, sully enjoys the attack, and Virion enjoys both. Not to mention donnel basically needs a good double to kill anything and be recruited. Even if she still gets him, there are a couple of archers scattered through out making it difficult to just rush sumia through the level. The best way to get levels would be by killing the thieves which again are better used towards recruiting donnel. All in all one maybe two levels would be all she gets.

Chapter 4: She can rush the boss just as well as anyone else

Nobody is gonna get more than a level on this map.

Chapter 5: Flying makes her able to rush straight into the enemies and kill most of them, she's pretty much you're most useful unit when it comes to saving Ricken and Maribelle, she's also turning into one of your by this point.

She can gain a large amount of exp here. She can do a number on the mages and can gain two maybe even three levels here.

Chapter 6: Everyone is useful in this map! Sumia can fly though making her more useful than almost any of your other units.

She will be very helpful here. But she probably will only gain one maybe two levels.

Chapter 7: Sumia continues to fly through the enemies, this time she can take out all the wyverns. Cordelia shows up too late to be of any use.

The issue with this chapter is that she has a lot of iffy hit rates. But a level should be reasonable.

So we see a level 8-11 sumia using these numbers depending on how much you favor her.

Sumia
Level. 8
HP.  23
Str.   9
Mag.5
Skill 16
Spd.  16+2
Lck.  12
Def.   7
Res.  10

Sumia
Level. 11
HP.  26
Str.   11
Mag. 6
Skill 18
Spd.  18+2
Lck.  14
Def.   8
Res.  11

Cordelia
Level 7
Hp. 25
Str. 9
Mg. 3
Skill 13
Spd. 12+2
Lck 9
Def. 8
Res 8

So as we can see at same level they are very similar. While if sumia is favored she has marginally better stats in everything but skill and speed where she has a large lead. So they're about even.

At first glance they're pretty even but then you see that Sumia has that B support with Frederick giving her 5 strength and defense, that's nice to have! So at this point Sumia has obvious leads in attack and defense her speed also allows her to double the rare enemy that Cordelia won't double.

Cordelia has a lower internal level which is nice for faster leveling but not that big of a lead. Cordelia's main problem right now is supports, or rather lack of them.

This is actually less relevant then you make it out to be. Supports at this point mostly help with increasing dual attacks which you shouldn't be over reliant on at this point. The second thing it does is adds ten to hit, avoid, crit, and dodge. For the most part stats they should both be pretty good in. However after a short while Cordelia starts to get more from supports because she has two things in her favor.

1). Wider support options for support making it easier to get the higher level bonuses. (Not all of sumias options will always be used, but Cordelia can support every male.)

2). Better options. The only useful combat characters sumia can support are Chrom and Freddy ( Henry comes too little too late) which means they are much easier to raise.

The early game is a win for sumia. The mid game is a tie leaning toward Cordelia's better supports. Lets look at the end game. This is dependent on class sets more growths due to doubling and tonics.

So sumia gets the knight and cleric branches in addition to the shared horsebird.

Cordelia gets merc and dark Mage.

The best option for efficient play is to reclass them at 10:15 when they have Galeforce. This is very good for Cordelia because she can get sol which is a great skill and potentially armsthrift depending on amount of effort put in. Sumias best option is to go great knight and nab Luna which is a pretty kickass skill but not quite as great as sol. They both get the option of wasting their time in a magic class to help as dark fliers, however Cordelia has an easier time leveling due to combat experience over watered down staff exp due to high internal level. But the only reason to go to either dark Mage or cleric is to gain weapon rank for their original promotion branch.

All in all it would appear that Cordelia is the better unit.

Your turn.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Randa

[Da Bear]

Alright then!

Sumia is not entitled to the Fredrick support though. Vaike appreciates the defense, sully enjoys the attack, and Virion enjoys both.

See the problem here is that while all of these characters do well with Frederick none of them give him what he wants, speed and resistance. Sumia gives both of those and gets exactly what she wants in return. Vaike is merely making Frederick’s strength overkill, Sully is the second best option but she doesn't want the support as much as Sumia and can do almost as well elsewhere and Virion just sucks. Also there is speculation about not even recruiting Donnel and training him isn't efficient. Sumia uses it best and gives back the most.

This is actually less relevant then you make it out to be. Supports at this point mostly help with increasing dual attacks which you shouldn't be over reliant on at this point. The second thing it does is adds ten to hit, avoid, crit, and dodge. For the most part stats they should both be good in.

I disagree the ability to have +1 or 2 to most stats that your partner would be giving you without support is very nice to have

1). Wider support options for support making it easier to get the higher level bonuses. (Not all of sumias options will always be used, but Cordelia can support every male.)

But Sumia has everything she needs from her supports. Cordelia having more supports is nice but it's not really an advantage.

2). Better options. The only useful combat characters sumia can support are Chrom and Freddy ( Henry comes too little too late) which means they are much easier to raise.

Henry is a great deal better than you give him credit for, great tankiness, good support unit he's great but I'll get to that later on.

The best option for efficient play is to reclass them at 10:15 when they have Galeforce. This is very good for Cordelia because she can get sol which is a great skill and potentially armsthrift depending on amount of effort put in. Sumias best option is to go great knight and nab Luna which is a pretty kickass skill but not quite as great as sol. They both get the option of wasting their time in a magic class to help as dark fliers, however Cordelia has an easier time leveling due to combat experience over watered down staff exp due to high internal level. But the only reason to go to either dark Mage or cleric is to gain weapon rank for their original promotion branch.

Your first problem is saying 10/15 for reclass, promoting at level ten doesn't work because of limited master seals and inferior stats, promoting at level 20 is much better. If were playing efficiently Cordelia isn’t getting Armshift, if we decide for some reason to get it then she will be far behind Sumia. You’re correct on Sol >> Luna though.

There’s something that you’re overlooking; Sumia can use magic as a DF. Allow me to explain: (this is according to around Chapter 14, chances are that Sumia will be a higher level than this) 20/1 DF Sumia has 12 magic and an E rank in tomes. 12 looks pretty bad at first but let's consider that the non-promoted enemies will have around 4-6 resistance (if I recall correctly and excluding mages) so Sumia with a thunder tome does 9-11 damage. Add a tonic and no support pair up with Henry and she's doing 15-17 damage and always doubling. As time goes on her tome rank will grow allowing her to use stronger tomes and her support with Henry will give her more magic and defense and she gains magic through levels. So her damage with magic is pretty good! Typically able to one-round, Plus as time goes dual strikes will become very reliable, so Sumia using magic actually works well!

The main advantage of Sumia going magical is that it gives her reliable 1-2 range with 1RKOs. That's better than Cordelia, who fares better going physical because her best supports are both physical, Cordelia needs javelins for 1-2 range and because those have fail might she will probably be reliant on dual strikes for 1RKOing.

Let's skip forward a bit I'll say chapter 20 they both have Galeforce and have gone off to their best respective reclasses, interesting thing with this Sumia is going Great Knight like you said and has an A or B rank in lances while Cordelia is stuck at E axes and swords.

Stats:

UNIT   CLASS LV.XP HP ST MG SK SP LK DF RS WEAPON RANK    SUPPORTS
Sumia   GK 20/15/1 52 26 10 32 32 27 24 14 A Lance        S Henry      
Cordy  Her 20/15/1 54 27 8  31 30 20 23 13 E Axe E Sword  S Stahl

Sumia's winning attack because Cordelia has only E rank in either weapon type. Sumia also has reliable two range thanks to her weapon rank lead. Javelins aren't that bad when you have a support partner packing 20+ damage hits at 70+%. Cordelia has a partner that can hit pretty hard as well but she can't counter at two range until she reaches D axes, which will take a map or two maybe more because this is the point in the game where most of the enemies decide to start wielding two range weapons. Cordelia won't be countering: Tome users, Bow users and Tomahawk/Spear throwers, the enemies just mentioned make up a big chunk of the enemies at this point. Making it hard for her to kill a lot on enemy phase so she will level a good deal slower than Sumia.

Sumia's other advantage is move. While the lead isn't that large at all it's still a lead that isn't changing and allows her to go deeper into the enemies and kill more for more EXP!

These two factors combine to make Sumia level faster than Cordelia when they've reclassed. Cordelia eventually getting Sol is nice but Sumia's durability is actually pretty good.

So as you said Sumia wins the early-game. The mid-game is extremely close, although I disagree and think that the slight advantage is Sumia's. Late-game looks to me like a lead for Sumia as well.

So Sumia > Cordelia.

Go!

EDIT: Something I forgot to make clear; Sumia isn't 1RKOing from the get-go with magic, she starts rather quickly but not immediately.

Edited May 17, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Randa]

I got nothing. It's hard to play devils advocate. Either way I can't of a valid argument here. Your win.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Randa

[Da Bear]

I got nothing. It's hard to play devils advocate. Either way I can't of a valid argument here. Your win.

You did well. Thanks for debating!

[charlie_]

So why are Sumia and Cordelia switching out to a non flying class again?

[shadykid]

I got nothing. It's hard to play devils advocate. Either way I can't of a valid argument here. Your win.

and when you can't even copy arguments from the majority of the tier list thread....

[PKL]

That was terrible...why are Cordelia and Sumia switching to a non flier class? And why is Sumia's level estimate so freaking high, when she's usually sharing kills with her husbando frederick? o_O

[Espinosa]

I spent a couple seconds thinking who the unit 'Bearclaw' might be is that the user Sumia would be arguing for, then I clicked the topic and remembered.

[shadykid]

That was terrible...why are Cordelia and Sumia switching to a non flier class? And why is Sumia's level estimate so freaking high, when she's usually sharing kills with her husbando frederick? o_O

ikr

could've copied yours/RFoF's/anyone else's arguments even without actually knowing anything and done better

[General Horace]

The level estimate for sumia isn't high at all, in my log i had her at 13.5something by the time Cordelia joined, and Frederick was still almost level 7.

But yeah i was confused by the disappering from flying classes thing.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

When is the ussual expectation for Galeforce on Sumia?

[Da Bear]

When is the ussual expectation for Galeforce on Sumia?

Around the chapter I was estimating but you can go earlier...

Also to everyone questioning leaving the flying classes. The main reason for me is because Assassins, Warriors and Snipers are pretty common and bows, especially high hit rate bows, will murder either of them in Pegasus classes. There's also the superior defenses being extremely nice for Sumia and Sol being amazing for Cordelia.

It's really optional though, you can have them stay

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

My Sumia is exactly 10 during Cordelia's jointime

Im not exactly an efficient player, but eh