RTU discussion thread

[Da Bear]

you really don't understand what opportunity cost is. The opportunity cost is zero if we're making decisions with zero difference compared to the optimal decision. In both efficient and leisurely playthroughs, using a Second Seal on one of the top combat units cannot possibly be considered suboptimal.

It's not the best decision though. In FE there isn't a concrete "best" decision. Between the RNG and different playstyles simply saying "it's the best decision" doesn't sound right at all.

Also why not? We could use a second seal on a healer for an extra combatant. We could get an Archer out of bow-lock. In my opinion making a good character great < making a terrible unit average or good.

Second Seals are buyable after Severa, Nowi, or Inigo's Paralogues. Granted, they are the hardest ones to complete, but if you were so inclined, you can best any one of them before Lucina's join chapter and stock up on enough Seals for her and anyone else who'd want them.

I know. Severa's and Nah's are honestly overrated difficulty wise though. You can't finish them before getting Lucina though... they show up after you get Lucina.

[Randa]

Second Seals are buyable after Severa, Nowi, or Inigo's Paralogues. Granted, they are the hardest ones to complete, but if you were so inclined, you can best any one of them before Lucina's join chapter and stock up on enough Seals for her and anyone else who'd want them.

You can't beat them before Lucina joins. She is the first child character available. The easiest way to get second seals is by beating chapter 16 or was it 17. Up to that I believe there are three obtainable second seals.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Randa

[Da Bear]

You can't beat them before Lucina joins. She is the first child character available. The easiest way to get second seals is by beating chapter 16 or was it 17. Up to that I believe there are five obtainable second seals.

Severa's paralogue can be completed earlier.

Unless you mean difficulty-wise in which case Chapter 16 is the easiest. (It's chapter 16)

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Chapter 16 is a joke chapter, and thats exactly before the game's "Difficulty" took a nosedive anyway

[Inference]

You can't beat them before Lucina joins. She is the first child character available. The easiest way to get second seals is by beating chapter 16 or was it 17. Up to that I believe there are three obtainable second seals.

Silly me. I knew all of the Paralogues were available after Ch. 13, but I thought Lucina joined in 14. Slip of the memory.

Still, she's fine where she is as a Lord, so I wouldn't even bother with a reclass until maybe Lv. 15 Great Lord.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Inference

[Da Bear]

Silly me. I knew all of the Paralogues were available after Ch. 13, but I thought Lucina joined in 14. Slip of the memory.

Happens to everyone.

[Redwall]

It's not the best decision though. In FE there isn't a concrete "best" decision. Between the RNG and different playstyles simply saying "it's the best decision" doesn't sound right at all.

No escaping your pedantry. Although there's no objectively "best" decision since the criteria people like to use to judge units (turncounts, reliability, hair color) are arbitrary, we can in principle show, given most combinations of characters, that using a Second Seal on Lucina or Morgan will in general not be as harmful to your turncounts and/or reliability as will using it on Virion. If you're not rating units according to TCs or reliability, then that's fine since the RTUs are ultimately our opinion; nonetheless, there's no denying that a good chunk of the ratings are written with semi-efficient play in mind, and that most people are going to be assuming Second Seals on the Morgans as opposed to the Virions.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Redwall

[Ema Skye]

If second seals really concern you about Avatar!Lucina, there's a Second Seal in Morgan's Paralogue. Whoever is competing with Lucina can get that one, and Lucina can have the Ch.12 one, since both are gotten so close together. There's also one in Ch.14 and Ch.15, and then they're buyable after then.

[Chiki]

No escaping your pedantry. Although there's no objectively "best" decision since the criteria people like to use to judge units (turncounts, reliability, hair color) are arbitrary, we can in principle show, given most combinations of characters, that using a Second Seal on Lucina or Morgan will in general not be as harmful to your turncounts and/or reliability as will using it on Virion. If you're not rating units according to TCs or reliability, then that's fine since the RTUs are ultimately our opinion; nonetheless, there's no denying that a good chunk of the ratings are written with semi-efficient play in mind, and that most people are going to be assuming Second Seals on the Morgans as opposed to the Virions.

Don't be so mean to thirteen year olds.

Anyway, I'm not so sure if Lucina is a good candidate for the Second Seal.

[Da Bear]

No escaping your pedantry. Although there's no objectively "best" decision since the criteria people like to use to judge units (turncounts, reliability, hair color) are arbitrary, we can in principle show, given most combinations of characters, that using a Second Seal on Lucina or Morgan will in general not be as harmful to your turncounts and/or reliability as will using it on Virion. If you're not rating units according to TCs or reliability, then that's fine since the RTUs are ultimately our opinion; nonetheless, there's no denying that a good chunk of the ratings are written with semi-efficient play in mind, and that most people are going to be assuming Second Seals on the Morgans as opposed to the Virions.

If we're using Morgan he's almost always a better candidate than Lucina.

But anyway; Virion getting a second seal > Morgan getting a second seal in most cases as well (unless you did Healer!Morgan or Donnel!Morgan basically) since Morgan is typically in a pretty good or even a great class while Virion is in lolArcher. Having an okay or good Virion and a good or even great Morgan > Having a nearly flawless Morgan and a trash Virion.

My reasoning should be obvious: when Virion gets the second seal both he and Morgan can help our team but when Morgan gets the second seal he's still helping our team (admittedly more) but Virion is now hindering the team. The same applies to Lucina. 2 good units > 1 great unit and 1 trash unit.

This is my opinion but as you stated (and I wholeheartedly agree with you) the rankings our based on opinions.

Don't be so mean to thirteen year olds.

Anyway, I'm not so sure if Lucina is a good candidate for the Second Seal.

>_> I seriously don't mind debating this stuff.

I'm not either but I don't feel like getting into some page long discussion about it.

[Redwall]

I don't disagree: Lucina's not as good a candidate as Morgan (and reclassing her is not productive at all in, say, LTC).

[Da Bear]

^So you agree with my Morgan > Lucina. Do you understand me saying Virion > Lucina and Morgan (only time those words will ever be uttered) on second seal priority?

Actually Morgan and Lucina are prob more likely to get a second seal just because we're almost certainly using them as opposed to lolVirion

[Chiki]

You change the subject a lot don't you? Virion isn't likely to even be used, so he's pretty much zero in Second Seal priority. He's almost as likely to be used as Donnel.

[Redwall]

I understand your point, but like you pointed out, even getting Virion to the point where he can use a Second Seal has costs. I suppose in postgame, Virion would receive priority for Second Seals, but by that point, they're readily available.

[Da Bear]

You change the subject a lot don't you? Virion isn't likely to even be used, so he's pretty much zero in Second Seal priority. He's almost as likely to be used as Donnel.

That wasn't my point. My point was that Lucina going Cav does have a clear opportunity cost and assuming it isn't a very good decision.

[Redwall]

If you've only got one Second Seal, then yes, it would be a bad idea to use it on Lucina instead of Morgan. But I think it would be even worse to use it on Virion.

[Chiki]

Do you understand me saying Virion > Lucina and Morgan (only time those words will ever be uttered) on second seal priority?

And I'm saying that Virion is far less likely to be used than Lucina and Morgan, and that his Second Seal priority is almost zero as a result.

[Da Bear]

And I'm saying that Virion is far less likely to be used than Lucina and Morgan, and that his Second Seal priority is almost zero as a result.

Super late response because I can.

I don't completely disagree but in order to make my point I had to point out Virion. At that point you would typically assume he's being used for the comparison.

[Redwall]

The game is completed most efficiently by investing in a select few units rather than spreading out EXP in an attempt to have more viable combatants. For this reason, I'd still prefer reclassing Morgan over some hypothetical Virion who just so happened to join at Lv 10 without needing to be babied.

[Inference]

Back on topic: are we still arguing that giving Lucina a Seal is a bad idea at a point in the game where they're buyable? I still find that line of logic absolutely absurd.

[Chiki]

No one is arguing that.

[The Fush]

When rating a unit in the RTU, I'm under the assumption that I'm using him/her. If I was using Virion, I'd count his usefulness in terms of reclassing too. I act under the assumption that I have the supplies that I need in order to make him stronger, so long as it doesn't recquire about 5 million tonics or something.

While doing that, I will not consider how other units may need the second seal more, because this is Hard mode, a mode which isn't very gruelling, especially at the point where you can start buying second seals. You are rating the unit alone, and only relating to other units in terms of support and pair-ups. Saying something like "Panne wants that Second Seal more" is rather redundant, because you're not rating Panne, you're rating the unit that's on the current thread title. Therefore, I will act under the assumption that I am using supplies for this unit so long as it does not affect me severely.

Therefore, I can rate Virion normally with his reclass options in mind. Mind you, I didn't actually find Wyvern Rider much better, since he won't be able to double as much. That's why I still gave him a low rating.

Regarding that, at the time you have multiple second seals, you probably also have multiple future children. So, in that case, getting a powerful Morgan and a decent Virion at the time is easy-peasy, and it doesn't matter anyway since you're not rating both of them at the same time.

[Da Bear]

Better combat than Basilio, and Basilio comes too late to be worth the supporting slot.

1.5 +1 bias = 2.5

Now you're arguing Flavia > Basilio? Please explain.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Flavia's combat comes from Sol and Pat anyway >_>

Edited June 19, 2013 by I have a Dragon Boner

[Ema Skye]

Basilio gets doubled in his join chapter without Flavia.

Flavia doesn't and 2HKOs with the Silver Sword / Silver Axe.

ergo, Flavia helps clear the chapter. Basilio doesn't.