Rescue or Pair Up

[CT075]

People who make a formation mistake.

that doesn't sound very fun, i don't think i know anybody like that

[shadykid]

I don't see why choke points go against the idea of a defense map. I mean Castles do naturally have choke points because having one person defending against a dozen is a good defensive strategy, And having alternative kill boss conditions occur so you aren't just sitting there waiting for the turn limit to go up since you've routed every enemy. In all of the examples mentioned killing the boss is quite difficult and the primary objective is to defend (at least for me, maybe I'm just bad at the game. I don't think I've ever managed to kill Ike in 3-13).

that's easy, the real fun is waiting and killing the rest of the GMs too

[Chiki]

placing he healer there means its at risk of getting hit from a range attack

Not if you place the healer at the right time (after your unit is surrounded).

[Florete]

a good defense map should not have the player routing every enemy, and a kill boss secondary objective doesn't need to exist to guard against that. for 3-13 specifically, olwen/chiki killed ike in 2 turns with jill in his LTC, vykan killed ike in 2 turns with tauroneo in his speedrun, and i killed ike in 4 turns with volug in 0% growths.

In general, draft players clear the map in 2-3 turns.

that doesn't sound very fun, i don't think i know anybody like that

...What are you even saying? You realize it's a mistake because it's not intentional, right?

[dondon151]

A unit cannot stand there indefinitely though unless they have really good defense.

or really high avo, or if they have healing. in that chapter 14 screenshot, finn was facing <10 hit from all enemies, and fred and glade could recover all of their sustained damage with some combination of tina, lara, and nanna.

Assuming the choke point is two spaces wide as they usually are they can be attacked from at least three units a turn.

i'm not sure where this assumption comes from. i'm not going to go and count every chokepoint in fire emblem as inevitably we will come to disagreements as to what constitutes a chokepoint, but i assure you that there are quite a few 1-tile chokepoints, and probably fewer 2-tile chokepoints, and even fewer that are wider than that. in any case, this assumption that a unit can be attacked from 3 positions per turn is not the general case.

you can't even be sure that the enemy will conveniently adopt a formation to maximize how often they can attack player units. enemy AI isn't that smart. look at the chapter 14 screenshot again and notice that out of the 5 possible 2-range attacking tiles, only 1 of them is occupied by a bow armor. a competent player can manipulate this to his advantage easily.

Unless your stocking a lot of vulneries your going to need a healer there too and placing he healer there means its at risk of getting hit from a range attack unless you use shove or rescue (and hey on the original topic another use of rescue above pair up that doesn't involve correcting a mistake).

this doesn't make sense. if a healer is vulnerable, that means that the enemy unit directly adjacent to the choking player unit has 2 range. either that enemy is not as strong (since 1-2 range weapons are weaker than 1 range weapons) or is unable to attack at 1 range altogether (bow locked). hypothetically, this could be a concern if every enemy unit were a magic user or had a tomahawk or a spear. in practice, this kind of thing almost never comes up, and having to rescue-drop healers away isn't so bad when you have nowhere that you want to go on the map.

It does fall down in one aspect. The problem being that in Fire Emblem if your not killing things then your units aren't getting stronger and while it might get you through the map it won't do you any favors in the long run.

between games that can be 0% growth'd or LTC'd with a minimum of EXP investment, i don't think that this is the case.

there is some evidence that points to an inverse relationship between how common chokepoints are on a map and how difficult it is. FE8 phantom ship is hard because frail units can't be protected from flying reinforcements. FE7 chapter 15 is slightly trickier than other defense maps because there's a 5-tile-wide opening to the throne.

Edited May 30, 2013 by dondon151

[Jotari]

The assumption comes from the fact that the game is rarely so kind as to give you a straight up single tile choke point because regardless of whether your using a pacifist strategy or not sticking a single unit in there is a huge benefit to the player that most maps just won't be willing to give. And any points about enemy AI are irrelevant as I'm considering the possibilities of the future rather than analyzing the mistakes of the past (since yes this is a very effective strategy, one I have used myself in the past though only ever with Tuaronoe and the Black Knight in Radiant Dawn).

The fact that games can be beaten on 0% Growth is completely irrelevant. That is extreme playing and shouldn't be used to figure into the pros and cons of a game. Loads of people have done ridiculous challenges in games (I myself have finished Zelda II with practically no level ups) that doesn't mean the games are to easy. It just means the players are crazy. Claiming that fighting enemy units in Fire Emblem is unimportant because it can be beaten with 0% growths is pretty much the same as claiming growths and level ups themselves are completely pointless.

[Chiki]

And any points about enemy AI are irrelevant as I'm considering the possibilities of the future

This point is just nonsensical. The enemy AI makes defense chapters pretty trivial in every Fire Emblem game, as he points out. For example, one can surround a player unit with 1-range enemy units who cannot attack the healer behind the player unit. The AI in any FE game is not smart enough to move these 1-range units so a 2-range unit can attack the healer. That has never happened in any FE game. In FE9 and 10, shoves exist, but the AI does not use them.

He gave you a way to trivialize every defense chapter in FE. You can't just say "I'm considering the possibilities of the future!" when his present claim is the correct one. It does nothing to contradict his present claim.

[shadykid]

just watch, some midgame defense chapters in the next Fire Emblem will have promoted enemies with capped stats to prevent you from going on the offensive

[Jotari]

But it is entirely possible for the AI to make us of these functions. All it takes is the awareness of the problems before hand. It is entirely possible to make enemies act differently in defense chapters. The enemies in Tiki's chapter have a very obvious different AI then the rest of the enemies in the game choosing to prioritizing attacking her over your units.

[Chiki]

But it is entirely possible for the AI to make us of these functions. All it takes is the awareness of the problems before hand. It is entirely possible to make enemies act differently in defense chapters. The enemies in Tiki's chapter have a very obvious different AI then the rest of the enemies in the game choosing to prioritizing attacking her over your units.

Yes, but it doesn't contradict his claim that defense chapters are easy the way they are now.

[Jotari]

I'm not trying to claim that defense chapters are easy or hard. My main point though it has been somewhat lost in the mix (along with the original topic) is that choke points work in defense chapters. The main claim was that a perfect defense chapter needs to be in an open field with something to protect and no other condition but to survive. I am trying to say that having choke points and an alternative victory conditions make just as effective chapters.

[CT075]

...What are you even saying? You realize it's a mistake because it's not intentional, right?

maybe i should have used strikethrough to make it more obvious

[dondon151]

The assumption comes from the fact that the game is rarely so kind as to give you a straight up single tile choke point because regardless of whether your using a pacifist strategy or not sticking a single unit in there is a huge benefit to the player that most maps just won't be willing to give.

maybe you should like

look at some actual maps

The main claim was that a perfect defense chapter needs to be in an open field with something to protect and no other condition but to survive. I am trying to say that having choke points and an alternative victory conditions make just as effective chapters.

judging by the quality of your argument, i couldn't tell that this was what you were saying at all... mostly because every shred of evidence exists to disprove your argument. it rests solely on conjecture and not at all on real game scenarios.

Edited May 31, 2013 by dondon151

[Jotari]

maybe you should like

look at some actual maps

judging by the quality of your argument, i couldn't tell that this was what you were saying at all... mostly because every shred of evidence exists to disprove your argument. it rests solely on conjecture and not at all on real game scenarios.

Is there any where to view all the maps in the series? Because I am trying to think from memory. Mainly thinking from Radiant Dawn as that has the most defense chapters of all the games I've played and of them the only choke point that is a single square that I can think of is in 2-E which has one on the left hand side. All the others are two square choke points. Usually on a pair of stairs.

And really the argument has degenerated tome fighting the claim that choke points are an utterly ridiculous concept that are completely broken and should be outright abolished. I'm really not trying to say anything other than choke points are not detrimental to defense chapters.

[dondon151]

Is there any where to view all the maps in the series?

http://fireemblemwod.net

And really the argument has degenerated tome fighting the claim that choke points are an utterly ridiculous concept that are completely broken and should be outright abolished. I'm really not trying to say anything other than choke points are not detrimental to defense chapters.

if you would like i could tell you how to trivialize every defense map in fire emblem ever

[shadykid]

http://fireemblemwod.net

if you would like i could tell you how to trivialize every defense map in fire emblem ever

doesn't have all the Awakening chapters, 0/10

more 3-13 like defense maps, except without the funny ledges or kill boss condition would be nice

Edited May 31, 2013 by shadykid

[Jotari]

http://fireemblemwod.net

if you would like i could tell you how to trivialize every defense map in fire emblem ever

I'm sure there are people who could tell me how to trivialize every map in the series. So long as things exist people will find away to break the system.

[Chiki]

It's a lot harder to trivialize a map like 4-3 than to trivialize a map with unequipped units in chokepoints.

[Jotari]

It's a lot harder to trivialize a map like 4-3 than to trivialize a map with unequipped units in chokepoints.

Form a defensive wall around all your necessary troops and wait until the Black Knight appears. Then let him kill everything on the map. It'd take a lot of troops but seems like a certain win. Mind you I haven't tried this I only thought it up on the spot (can the enemies damage the Black Knight in this chapter? Is it game over if he dies?)

Edited May 31, 2013 by Jotari

[CT075]

i vaguely remember the black knight walking over to one side of the map and proceeding to stnad still because the rest of the enemies were too far away

[Florete]

i vaguely remember the black knight walking over to one side of the map and proceeding to stnad still because the rest of the enemies were too far away

If this were true, people wouldn't need Skrimir to Shove him away so he wouldn't take all their kills.

[dondon151]

Form a defensive wall around all your necessary troops and wait until the Black Knight appears. Then let him kill everything on the map. It'd take a lot of troops but seems like a certain win. Mind you I haven't tried this I only thought it up on the spot (can the enemies damage the Black Knight in this chapter? Is it game over if he dies?)

turtling an offensive map is different from trivializing a defense map

[Jotari]

I think the only thing he refuses to do is kill the boss for you.

[shadykid]

enjoy taking 35146346 turns for the Black Knight to kill everything, not to mention mages could actually kill him if they get lucky

[Anouleth]

This point is just nonsensical. The enemy AI makes defense chapters pretty trivial in every Fire Emblem game, as he points out. For example, one can surround a player unit with 1-range enemy units who cannot attack the healer behind the player unit. The AI in any FE game is not smart enough to move these 1-range units so a 2-range unit can attack the healer. That has never happened in any FE game. In FE9 and 10, shoves exist, but the AI does not use them.

He gave you a way to trivialize every defense chapter in FE. You can't just say "I'm considering the possibilities of the future!" when his present claim is the correct one. It does nothing to contradict his present claim.

Actually, that's not true. The AI in FE13 can detect when one of your units is in range to be 1-rounded and move other units out of the way to make it happen. I remember Lissa dying to it once in Lunatic mode. It's true, however, that in every other FE, the AI didn't do this, and that in most FEs, even Lunatic Awakening, it is not too hard to get healers that don't instantly die to 2-ranged enemies and can at least take one round of combat. Edited June 2, 2013 by Anouleth