LTC

[dondon151]

oh wow, i will definitely keep that in mind next time and remember to send the iron sword and iron lance with holmes's characters.

[Espinosa]

I have found that Life and Death and a +crit Iron Lance work wonders together. Wait till you see my Lionel in action in the vids ahead. The Iron Sword stayed with Narron/Raffin because these two 2HKO stuff most easily and I wanted to build up its crit. I guess it would sorta make Vega's/Shigen's chances of ORKOing higher pre-promotion.

I don't think Runan can get Frontier Fighter. He can't move freely around the map like Holmes' party can. The northern seize point is definitely preferred in LTC, though one advantage of going south is that the second version of chapter 26 features a MOV Plus, which is otherwise unobtainable. Don't really think it pays off unless you dupe it with Krisheenu repeatedly.

And wow there Maerhen goes fucking things up for me again by getting blocked by an Opus. Though I think this time around Yuni ended up one space short of the last chest on turn 10? I should study her movement again and revise the direction I should be going in to prevent that next time. So I guess two mini-objectives out of three failed, welp better luck next time.

[dondon151]

I have found that Life and Death and a +crit Iron Lance work wonders together. Wait till you see my Lionel in action in the vids ahead. The Iron Sword stayed with Narron/Raffin because these two 2HKO stuff most easily and I wanted to build up its crit. I guess it would sorta make Vega's/Shigen's chances of ORKOing higher pre-promotion.

that's true. on the one hand, narron and raffin kind of kill everything really quickly, and narron can OHKO some enemies to save uses. on the other hand, you can end up getting a ton of kills from chapter 16 since the sperm more or less die in one attack all the time.

i'm not sure how you screwed up with yuni there, unless there's a stealth terrain tile that i didn't take into account ._.

do you need any extra bridge keys? i suspect the answer is no. what about door keys? also, any plans for the chapter 17 plains fighter and chapter 25 frontier fighter?

Edited June 6, 2013 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

So I have finally 10-turned chapter 16 and guess what happened...

Lionel proc'd move again

He now has 8 promoted move

Same as Narron, but without the horse

9 on City terrain...

We did it!

I also just realised I'm beating the ChinaFE turncount by 16 turns already, and I'm not even a half into the game (though skipping chapter 11 accounts for 11 of these 16 turns). That's pretty cool, but I wish I could make any sense out of the Google Translate version of that log besides the turn numbers. Better keep it up as there are some tough maps ahead and tough decisions to be made.

Runan needs 1 Bridge Key in chapter 17, and 2 more in chapter 37. For Door Keys, I think in LTC you just need 2 keys per party for the final map but 3-4 wouldn't hurt because I can't imagine LTCing that map before I'm there, so things could unfold in all sorts of ways and there's still a long time to go.

Frontier Fighter comes into play in 3 maps after chapter 25, 2 of them are best warpskipped. The last one is the final map, so any combat unit works, probably Raffin since he can realistically get there before we're done with the map.

Plains Fighter, according to my calculation, gives Raffin 9 move in Ernest's map, enough to reach the boss on the first turn and whack him (or at least try to - the dude capped most stats and has all the shields in the world) at 2-range. Not sure if that'd help at all. As for chapter 30, we're warpskipping that one.

[dondon151]

hoooly crap

well i am not going to have a lionel that procs move... (though i wonder if that will save any turns at all, given that lionel neither opens chests nor seizes gates.)

I also just realised I'm beating the ChinaFE turncount by 16 turns already, and I'm not even a half into the game (though skipping chapter 11 accounts for 11 of these 16 turns). That's pretty cool, but I wish I could make any sense out of the Google Translate version of that log besides the turn numbers. Better keep it up as there are some tough maps ahead and tough decisions to be made.

link me the log, i can mostly read chinese. just tell me what you want to know.

so i'm guessing that there's no need to buy extra bridge keys, since you get one each in chapters 7 and 24, then you can probably use one of the bridge keys that drop in chapter 37. are door keys commonly buyable? i haven't gone to a vendor recently so i don't know. i suppose it wouldn't hurt to buy a few extra since they're somewhat cheap at 500G each.

i don't have the impression that raffin whacking ernest at 2 range on turn 1 is going to do anything... don't you need to dance him with plum to do that?

[dondon151]

wow chapter 18 was a bitch

i try to use armorslayer against barbarossa, and he activates great shield.

so now i need a needle spear crit to KO, and he activates great shield again.

then i try to finish him with estoc, and he activates great shield again.

so it turns out that i didn't need many shields on runan at all. he can probably do with a partially used leather shield (though mine is def blessed). narron would like a magic shield for the blizzard mage. sasha and raffin needed shields the most because they had to face a lot of combat, and i had to rely on sasha dodging a bunch of stonehenges.

meriah @ starlight is great archer and ballista bait, especially when standing on a forest tile, but she probably needs a leather shield in case she gets hit (though the stonehenges have ~10 hit on her). sharon and kate could be useful. the harpies are pretty hard to kill with untrained units unless they use bows.

the best bet against barbarossa is probably a needle spear crit. he's too fast to double even with narron after an AGI plus and armorslayer's hit is about as likely as a needle spear crit (plus you'll have to hit him again, maybe with the armorslayer).

chapter 19 looks like it can be 2-turned. does that mean that LTC doesn't recruit loffaru?

Edited June 7, 2013 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

Wait till you get to the hell that is chapter 21, where you'll understand why having more move on a proficient combat unit is a big boon. You need to rout the map while opening both the chests all while running away from an invincible dragon who OHKOs people with his breath.

Holmes with FF can like open the chests in 3 turns with a dance, but the dragon will eat him alive then so something needs to be done. The dragon also isn't gone by turn 4, which is when the enemies start spawning. There are summoners and 1~3 range Dark Priests among them, so counterkilling on EP is mostly out and you'll need as many mobile and strong fighters as you can.

For surviving the dragon, I predict I will be trying the following, so I'l list those strats here because you'll probably get there first:

- Dance Katri first, she goes BoF Ryu mode

- Dance Shigen and bait the dragon while equipped with the Dullahan

- Dance a mobile unit with a Charm (not sure if Charm works for fatal breath attacks) and then use Shigen/Katri next turn to block the path to Holmes who lockpicks in the meantime

I believe this is the map that persuades people to go with Lee instead of Narron.

link me the log, i can mostly read chinese. just tell me what you want to know.

http://www.fireemblem.net/fe/TRS/trs--research/TRSlimitturn.htm

It can be pretty hard to understand even in Google translate, even the names of participants. Who are Craig and Death for instance?

I guess I'd like to know the things that help me low-turn the game, sorta the same ones as you.

so i'm guessing that there's no need to buy extra bridge keys, since you get one each in chapters 7 and 24, then you can probably use one of the bridge keys that drop in chapter 37. are door keys commonly buyable? i haven't gone to a vendor recently so i don't know. i suppose it wouldn't hurt to buy a few extra since they're somewhat cheap at 500G each.

Hmmm, I guess you're right. I was over caucious and bought 2 more during Holmes' scenario - not being good at shopping again.

i don't have the impression that raffin whacking ernest at 2 range on turn 1 is going to do anything... don't you need to dance him with plum to do that?

Yes and yes... So it also assumes Plum is going with Runan not Holmes. Haven't thought where Plum should be sent for optimal turn-saving yet. I guess the same applies for the second split as well.

the best bet against barbarossa is probably a needle spear crit. he's too fast to double even with narron after an AGI plus and armorslayer's hit is about as likely as a needle spear crit (plus you'll have to hit him again, maybe with the armorslayer).

chapter 19 looks like it can be 2-turned. does that mean that LTC doesn't recruit loffaru?

Yeah, that map is hard and is a reason why you'd want to have both Zeek and Narron around. I haven't got a DK Sasha or any defence procs on Runan at all, so I'll probably have a harder time.

Narron needs 24 AS to double with the Armorslayer. He can also proc Adept and you do have a save staff as well as, I think, 3 opportunities to attack (turn 3 PP, turn 3 EP, turn 4 PP) in a 4-turn, but it's been a while since I last did the map so I forget how difficult it is to push through into the fortress.

Loffaru joins automatically after the map is over, but talking to him with Runan gives you a Mainstar, an effective anti-monster sword.

[dondon151]

Wait till you get to the hell that is chapter 21, where you'll understand why having more move on a proficient combat unit is a big boon. You need to rout the map while opening both the chests all while running away from an invincible dragon who OHKOs people with his breath.

aquilae's guide says that all that you need to do is to open the 2 chests, and WoD says that you need to survive past turn 5 in addition to that. neither of them mention routing the map.

Narron needs 24 AS to double with the Armorslayer. He can also proc Adept and you do have a save staff as well as, I think, 3 opportunities to attack (turn 3 PP, turn 3 EP, turn 4 PP) in a 4-turn, but it's been a while since I last did the map so I forget how difficult it is to push through into the fortress.

barbarossa has nihil, so adept isn't going to proc. and there's no way that narron is going to get 24 agi without massive RNG abuse on level ups. he needs only 20 agi to double with an estoc, which might be feasible with an AGI plus, and 19 str is good enough for a 3HKO in the case that barbarossa procs great shield.

save staff is a good consideration, but hopefully you don't need enteh to use a physic as well, because you can't use both on the same turn.

i'll check out the chinaFE link when i have the time.

[Espinosa]

I recall YayMarsha routing the map, but I guess he wanted the exp and didn't try just opening the chests out of convenience instead. If the chests are all we care about, we can probably clear the map faster.

My Narron has 21 agi at L23... Way higher than average, and only 3 points away from doubling with an Armorslayer. An Estoc has only 12 effective Mt, so you might as well use the Needle and pray for a crit if you're doubling with both/neither.

I think the most efficient and reliable way to kill Barbarossa is to send Zeek with Runan and rack up a high enough crit rate with Life and Death before the bosskilling. Zeek has no effective weaponry agains the boss besides the inaccurate Hammer though.

[dondon151]

My Narron has 21 agi at L23... Way higher than average, and only 3 points away from doubling with an Armorslayer. An Estoc has only 12 effective Mt, so you might as well use the Needle and pray for a crit if you're doubling with both/neither.

with 19 str, you are guaranteed to 3HKO with estoc (allowing for one great shield proc), unless gates give def bonuses that i'm not aware of, but you're not guaranteed to crit with needle spear.

I think the most efficient and reliable way to kill Barbarossa is to send Zeek with Runan and rack up a high enough crit rate with Life and Death before the bosskilling. Zeek has no effective weaponry agains the boss besides the inaccurate Hammer though.

is life or death a passive skill, or does nihil block that too?

[Icon of Sin]

with 19 str, you are guaranteed to 3HKO with estoc (allowing for one great shield proc), unless gates give def bonuses that i'm not aware of, but you're not guaranteed to crit with needle spear.

is life or death a passive skill, or does nihil block that too?

Only avoid. No terrain gives defense or magic.

It should be. I'm pretty sure I always had low displayed critical on Ernst for instance.

[Espinosa]

AquiIae wrote that he had over 30+ crit displayed on Barbarossa, so I'm assuming Nihil doesn't prevent that. He could've equipped a Needle Spear with really high skill on Zeek, though... so I'm not sure.

Needle Spear is also quite a bit heavier, I guess, but gives +10 hit (helpful) and the chance to crit if desperate.

My Narron is entering chapter 18 with 22 agility, and I gave him the Salia tome for +10% speed growth (alongside strength, skill and I think WLv), so he might reach 24 and double Barbarossa with an Armorslayer, who knows. Armorslayer still isn't a 2HKO (even assuming capped strength) but could prove to be useful if both Raffin and Narron are around and the boss is still alive on turn 4, as an alternative to Estoc.

[BrightBow]

From what I remember, Barbossa has always decent critical. Wouldn't it be a bit to risky to resort to live and death?

Sure, there is the save staff but wouldn't the hammer and the needlespear work just as well?

[Espinosa]

Life and Death can be quite tough to make it work right, because if you're low on HP and have high crit with it, the enemy can kill you in the counter. And if you wait for the enemy to get your HP low, I believe you will have the same crit chance with which you were entering the battle (so you can't enter the battle at full HP, take damage and expect your counterattack(-s) to have good damage).

Hammer has really low hit (in the 30s iirc) so you'll see something like a 40% chance of connecting at best, though you'll 2HKO easily with it.

[dondon151]

are you sure armorslayer isn't a 2HKO with capped str? barbarossa has 16 def and armorslayer has 21 eff MT, so you only need 18 str to 2HKO.

[Espinosa]

Hmm... I need to get some sleep.

[dondon151]

okay, so i read up to chapter 18 in the chinaFE log and i don't know what you haven't understood that i did understand, so i'll just go over major differences in his playthrough from mine and/or yours:

1. he didn't try to train sasha and used mahter instead. i personally think sasha is way better than mahter, though. i guess it makes sense if he's focusing EXP into other units, but without narron early on, i feel like there would have been plenty of opportunity to train sasha. naturally he didn't get the pegasus flute, either.

2. he didn't pick narron the first time, choosing lee instead. he picked narron the second time, so he didn't pick lionel. this meant that he had to send zeek with runan's route.

3. obviously, with no re-move on zeek in chapter 5, he couldn't 3-turn chapter 6.

4. he went to chapter 11, so he has alicia and samson.

5. in chapter 15, he taught frontier fighter to julia, shigen, and samson. i think the reason why he took 3 turns in chapter 15 is because according to the playthrough rules, he couldn't learn skills outside of chapters (this is what i figure), so he couldn't go back to the map and learn them for free. if you go by these rules, if you teach holmes frontier fighter, he necessarily has to take 3 turns in chapter 15. but you can still teach yuni frontier fighter. though, he never mentions that he teaches frontier fighter to holmes, yet how would he 4-turn chapter 20?

6. after chapter 14, he picked the knight proof, the hero proof, a healing drop, and two of the stat boosters (not specified which). he remarks that he should have picked a physic instead.

what google translates to craig is actually zeek. i don't know who death is, but his name translates to "death god" and i think he refers to vega.

anyway i just finished chapter 19, which is pretty easy. i didn't get the silver axe, but i think it's pretty easily obtainable (with like, shirou, and then a mage to kill one of the ogres). one idea that i had is that having a runan with 6 or fewer def can gain a ton of EXP in this map because the glace mummies will attack him. he does need to kill a dark knight that attacks him first, though. he needs either 20 atk and -3 AS to double and ORKO - an iron blade, a steel blade, or a scimitar - or a crit. if you can rig a crit with the +1 crit iron sword, you can gain an easy 5 kills in 5-6 attacks if the glace mummies attack runan like i predict. if not, then nevermind. but i do think it's worth it to make sure that runan only has 6 def going into this map and doesn't proc def, because 4 glace mummies and a dark knight kill is like, more than 3 levels.

EDIT: are the two encounters after chapter 19 mandatory? the first one looks like it's always the same. should we try to LTC these maps too?

Edited June 8, 2013 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

Hmm, interesting. Once we get to map 21, we'll see if we can match/beat his turn count without the staff on Plum. And I have no clue why he's getting so many Knight Crests when he doesn't have Lionel - I wouldn't promote any Knights besides Narron and Sun. FF on three combat units sounds strange but we know just how hard map 16 is to figure out, so they must've helped.

My Runan actually reached 6 defence in map 17 (and might proc some stats in map 18 as well, idk how much he'll be attacked) so I won't be able to feed him any Mummy kills. I guess it's the quality of his level-ups and not the number that we care about? Though having Rising Dragon and a decent skill stat will be useful in chapter 37 (our main reason to care about training Runan).

I believe these encounters are the same but the enemies/equips they have change. I don't know when they're generated though, but if you save after one of these maps, the next ones are already generated.

I'd like to Mug a Death tome (20 crit tome for Sierra) from a Witch in one of these battles with Maerhen in case we need to crit somebody in our endgame re-Warp strategies.

The random battle turn counts aren't recorded, so it's a good opportunity to get exp for Sun, Attrom and whomever else you feel like training.

[dondon151]

My Runan actually reached 6 defence in map 17 (and might proc some stats in map 18 as well, idk how much he'll be attacked) so I won't be able to feed him any Mummy kills. I guess it's the quality of his level-ups and not the number that we care about? Though having Rising Dragon and a decent skill stat will be useful in chapter 37 (our main reason to care about training Runan).

with 6 def he can still be damaged by the glace mummies, so i think you're fine. if possible i'd like for you to try to keep him at 6 def so that you can test out my idea. the quality of level ups matters, but i think runan would rather maximize his str/skl/agi stats instead of maximizing his def stat.

i can see potential for sun, but i can't understand training attrom. i know that he needs to recruit renee later on, but otherwise he just looks like a worse xeno, and xeno is already a worse vega/shigen. the turncounts for the encounters are not recorded, but by principle, since they are forced, and since the encounter after chapter 19 has an arena, shouldn't we enforce LTC on some encounters?

one more question: did you send maruj with holmes to get sylpheed?

Edited June 8, 2013 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

I'll test it - and it's not like I intended to have him proc defence; he's actually been kinda screwed in the stat until recently. But yeah, strength and skill are the two most important stats for Runan. I guess speed too since it affects Continue activation rate? He doesn't need any help doubling the dragon even at base stats, that's for sure.

Can you understand the reasons why the ChinaFE player sends Plum with the Lords he sends her with after the second split? I think there's only one good way to figure out the most efficient decisions - trying out going one way and the other. Plum on Runan's route after the third split is justified by the existence of Aura Rain, but without Rishuel we don't really get that.

Yeah, the recruitment of Renee is basically the reason to train and promote Attrom. I've been running of deployment slots for him though, so he missed chapters 14 and 16 (where he could've done some of the same things as Shigen I guess). Racquel got a surprising lot of action in map 16 though, even learning Anti-Evil (20%+ crit on monsters looks pretty nice so I think I could send her with Runan next). Xeno and Attrom are more or less clones. Xeno comes at lv. 1 in a chapter where he can level up a lot, but the availability difference isn't big, and nobody's saying Xeno should get any action in his join chapter at all (I gave "his" kills to Mahter and others; probably should've focused on Vega and Barts now that I think about it).

About the random encounters: going LTC for these wouldn't hurt us in the slightest because you pretty much snowball the best guys you have (Lionel, Vega et al.). However, I propose a "no bullshit" rule instead. You can field weaker units (Attrom, Sun, whoever else is lagging behind) and take more turns as a result, as long as you don't do stuff like using the arena (okay in Roger's chapter) and avo-tanking in the forest or something. The enemy line-up changes in these random encounters so we don't get much of our turn counts even if we disregard the fact that they're not rendered after the game is over.

Yeah, I thought that the Sylpheed tome is way better than the Reeve tome (which also wouldn't be bad of course). Without Alicia, we're getting only one of these and while we're short of proficient users (I guess Maruju did use it a couple times with Holmes) Sierra makes spectacular use of it, especially if tutored Gale.

[Espinosa]

Updated the OP.

dondon, remember you wondered how Holmes ended up having Frontier Fighter when three combat units were tutored that for 7K instead?

One of the "random" encounters after chapter 19 has a map with three tutors in it - Frontier, Arena and Mountain (applies to maps 2 and 11 only, therefore pretty useless). Aquilae states that Arena Fighter also increases hit/avo on desert tiles, but says nothing about the movement in the desert. If Yuni can have better mobility in the desert (map 25) by getting Arena Fighter, then I think it's worth tutoring, otherwise probably not unless you want somebody to kill the five DKs while Runan is busy seizing.

The 'free' Frontier Fighter could go to somebody like Shigen, or maybe Katri, so that they help in blocking the dragon's way to Holmes opening the chests on map 21.

[Espinosa]

Stuck on chapter 18. Raffin (dismounted) and Narron can break the gate on turn 2, but then the enemies create a chokepoint that I find very hard to break (my Sasha is pretty bad, and Zeek is with Holmes).

Runan also likes to die on turn 3 EP, and his health always gets quite low (at least) even with Iron + Steel Shields and a Charm. Probably the best use for these shields though, maybe map 24 will be similarly demanding but at least the terrain is straightforward there.

Currently considering a more luck-reliant strategy involving Raffin not dismounting but instead breaking into the fortress on wings and getting some kills with the Armorslayer while surviving (with some help from the Memory Staff I guess).

The AKs require the Armorslayer (mine has 10 uses left) to be reliably ORKO'd (Narron does have high crit + Blazing Wind + Adept though), and 15 strength is enough to 2HKO the Arbalest tank (the Gatling Bow one is killing Raffin for sure though, unless I give him some high-end shields).

You also need just 18 strength (hope I didn't mathfail again) to 2HKO Barbarossa with the Armorslayer. If Narron doesn't proc speed twice before engaging the boss (so far it doesn't even seem like he can even get that many kills in this map), we can reset for a Needle Spear crit + chip with Raffin w/ Estoc.

But getting rid of the enemies in the way seems like the biggest issue so far. I really wish Narron was the one who could fly out of him and Raffin. There's even a Blizzard Dark Priest who cannot be countered.

[dondon151]

hmm, that one is a doozy without a good non-raffin flier or zeek, isn't it. with sasha to help out, i broke the door with her on turn 2 and killed the first armor knight with raffin. narron could then actually get within the walls and kill the bow master that had the 3-range bow. he also had enough str to ORKO the second armor with a pilum on EP.

the chinaFE strat involved using mounted raffin at some point, but he remarks that he had to rig a stonehenge dodge.

well, if you're planning on going back to the first division to optimize the team distribution, you can just soldier on through with more than 4 turns and figure out if zeek really needs to go with holmes. i really think that you need sasha or zeek to clear chapter 18 easily. maybe you'll find a way to 4-turn it without either of them, though.

have you considered perhaps seeing if shirou can help you break the door on turn 2 instead of narron? he will probably need to use a bowgun instead of the hand bow that he starts out with, and he might die, but at least narron can get a foot in the door that way, so to speak. also, are you trying to use meriah to dodge tank? i don't know how helpful that would be, but it did successfully divert a few stonehenge and quick rain attacks from sasha/runan to meriah when i used her.

Edited June 9, 2013 by dondon151

[Espinosa]

My Narron doesn't even 2HKOs the armours with an Estoc (of which I somehow have a crapload on Runan's team).

I've just discovered a way of breaking the gate in a way that enables both Raffin and Narron to commence attacking the foretress, but it's pretty luck-reliant. Probably the best way to go about it. I've even managed to position Runan within seize range on turn 3, with Narron being able to attack the boss next turn. He 3HKOs with Estoc, as expected, and has like 70ish hit, 19ish crit displayed. On that attempt, Raffin, Thomas and I think also Sasha died however, but if I can replicate it, I can just reset until the two Estoc hits connect and one crits.

The Harpies are a huge pain in the arse though.

I don't think I have a good reason to restart right now. Unless I wanted to bring up Barts or Sasha (which I honestly tried).

Is Sasha not hogging any of Narron or Raffin's experience on your file? As of map 18, I have a lv. 20 Raffin and a lv. 25 Narron; I imagine they'd perform worse if they had to share that experience with a third mounted unit.

The stonehenges have 60ish hit so they're easy to dodge. Raffin gets 15 avo from Sharon, 5 from Sasha and 5 from Lan's Mirror; more than enough with natural agility and whatnot.

Zeek is pretty much needed for a reliable clear of map 13 I think, though Shigen (natural Sea Fighter) with a Thunder Sword works as well - but you'll have to rig a Continue activation. Having a Thunder Sword also implies missing some of the map 8 chests with Yuni, namely the Knight Crest that Lionel kinda wants.

[dondon151]

after chapter 18 i have:

narron at L25.88

raffin at L18.78

sasha at L20.78

runan at L9.28

so they are a little lower, but not by much, and sasha is pretty awesome anyway.

(lan's mirror is with holmes's team.)