Do people really go Dark Flyer for only Galeforce?

[Da Bear]

Seriously?

Also at Valm Arc I only have like.... 1 Dust

Who else is using it as well as Sumia does?

[Folt]

One Spirit Dust will suffice.

And having Henry can make up for not having Frederick, given how low Res most Valm enemies have.

[Interceptor]

Also at Valm Arc I only have like.... 1 Dust

What of it? There's another one in Nah's Paralogue, and another one as a Renown award, and you'll randomly find them on Anna merchants. Meanwhile, Tonics forever, and +4 from Henry right off the rip.

I get that her MAG growth/base are low, really I do. But really, making DF Sumia work is less "climbing Mount Everest" and more "putting on a pair of pants" in terms of difficulty.

[Thor Odinson]

If they have good mag /maybe/ I'll use them for more than galeforce. Except Avatar. No Avatar of mine is allowed to end in a non-axe class.

Henry!Cynthia makes a p good Dark Flier, as do postgame Maribelle and Lissa (though I go War Cleric Lissa for the lulz anyway because I really like axes and her strength isn't utterly unsalvagable like Maribelle's). Sumia's mag is a toss up for me. If she gets the levels, sure, she's not that hard to become an effective DF. Cordelia is ahaha no.

But I don't really like using magic units that much. Much would rather just muscle through things as personal preference.

With axes.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Thor Odinson

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I never accesed Nah paralogue because I did not use Nowi

Eh there might be more from the chest that I skipped

Edited May 29, 2013 by JSND

[Da Bear]

I never accesed Nah paralogue because I did not use Nowi

Eh there might be more from the chest that I skipped

Morgan and Nowi? Your bench is starting to look more and more like my team.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Morgan, Nowi, MU, Vaike to be exact

[Da Bear]

Morgan, Nowi, MU, Vaike to be exact

...That's my team in many PTs... unless you just mean your playlog...

[Redwall]

I don't think Chiki is saying DF Sumia is an unsalvageable mage; just that she works better as a physical attacker.

Just as an example, the C15 Cavaliers have 38 HP, 11 Def, and 4 Res. ORKOing them with a Sumia capable of doubling will require either 23 MAtk or 30 PhysAtk.

An average 15/5 Sumia has 11.9 Mag and 14.9 Str; with a Henry Pair Up (she won't have C support by then) and a Mag Tonic, she'll have 17.9 Mag with E-ranked tomes, while with a Fred S support and a Str Tonic, she'll have 22.9 Str with A-ranked lances.

With a 6 Mt lance and the A rank, the average Sumia is guaranteed to ORKO the Cavs, but with a Henry Pair Up, Mag tonic, and a Thunder tome, she's still short and will require a Dual Attack at low odds. The Spirit Dust is better used on staffbots and the Avatar, and stronger enemies like the Generals require a Fred DA which will occur with high odds, while Sumia has no chance of taking out Generals in that Chapter with just a Henry Pair Up.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Redwall

[Vashiane]

I don't think Chiki is saying DF Sumia is an unsalvageable mage; just that she works better as a physical attacker.

Just as an example, the C15 Cavaliers have 38 HP, 11 Def, and 4 Res. ORKOing them with a Sumia capable of doubling will require either 23 MAtk or 30 PhysAtk.

An average 15/5 Sumia has 11.9 Mag and 14.9 Str; with a Henry Pair Up (she won't have C support by then) and a Mag Tonic, she'll have 17.9 Mag with E-ranked tomes, while with a Fred S support and a Str Tonic, she'll have 22.9 Str with A-ranked lances.

With a 6 Mt lance and the A rank, Sumia is guaranteed to ORKO the Cavs, but with a Henry Pair Up, Mag tonic, and a Thunder tome, she's still short and will require a Dual Attack at low odds. The Spirit Dust is better used on staffbots and the Avatar, and stronger enemies like the Generals require a Fred DA which will occur with high odds, while Sumia has no chance of taking out Generals in that Chapter with just a Henry Pair Up.

... Ah.

This is in a no-grind playthrough, I assume?

[Redwall]

Yes. I don't mind grinding, but for the sake of character/class comparisons, assuming it isn't being done allows us to see visible differences between these characters and classes.

[Vashiane]

Yes. I don't mind grinding, but for the sake of character/class comparisons, assuming it isn't being done allows us to see visible differences between these characters and classes.

Ah! Well, I grind a quite a bit, so my Sumia would probably by a bit higher leveled by that point. But that's an interesting analysis there, thank you.

[Tamanoir]

Sumia can't marry Virion, though. She can only support with Chrom, Sully, Gaius, Henry, Frederick and the Avatar.

I meant Virion X Cordelia. Cynthia won't have to much problem with magic

Edited May 29, 2013 by TendaSlime

[Interceptor]

Sure, let's sandbag Sumia instead of using her seriously. Furthermore, the worst chapter is the only chapter that matters.

Stuck at E tomes, even though she's been a Dark Flier for 5 levels. Using Henry unsupported, because heaven forbid that she use Frederick when needed as a stopgap while building a new partner. Spirit Dust goes to Avatar or a staffbot or the dumpster because it has the annoying effect of putting her over over the top offensively and making the comparison look silly. Let's not talk about what happens when physical attacker Sumia with an Iron Lance gets targeted by a 2-range unit.

FFS, if I was going to use Dark Flier Sumia with Tomes in a playthrough, I'd actually make some attempt to make it viable. Prime her weapon rank with an Arms Scroll if you have to, switch her gradually over to Henry, give her the stat boosters that she needs. Who's to say that we're not also using Cordelia, and have the "flying lance" bit locked up already?

I mean, in most cases I'd prefer to bench Sumia use her as a lancer, but to go so far as to say that there's no point in a tome-using version is to jump right into Crazytown.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Interceptor

[Folt]

Most likely a no-grind playthrough. Anyways, Sumia will likely make for a better physical than magical attacker, though I've gotten Sumia to Lv. 20 easily in my no-grind playthrough before Chapter 13 (and used the Arms Scroll from Paralogue 4 on her), so...

[Redwall]

Sure, let's sandbag Sumia instead of using her seriously. Furthermore, the worst chapter is the only chapter that matters.

Stuck at E tomes, even though she's been a Dark Flier for 5 levels. Using Henry unsupported, because heaven forbid that she use Frederick when needed as a stopgap while building a new partner. Spirit Dust goes to Avatar or a staffbot or the dumpster because it has the annoying effect of putting her over over the top offensively and making the comparison look silly. Let's not talk about what happens when physical attacker Sumia with an Iron Lance gets targeted by a 2-range unit.

I have no idea what you mean by using Sumia seriously. If we use her optimally, then we'll obviously Pair her with Frederick prior to C15--which makes lances all the better during that time while failing to make 3 Mt Thunder tomes any better. After C15, the Sumia/Henry squad continues to be inferior to the Sumia/Fred Pair for a long time due to her low Mag, sub-B tomes having bad Mt in general, and the lower Dual Attack/Guard chances.

I brought up C15 because the following chapters are assassination missions, giving her few opportunities to gain EXP.

Spirit Dust should go to the Avatar or a staffbot if you're playing quickly; but yes, I don't disagree that we can get away with a lot of suboptimal choices, including feeding Sumia that Spirit Dust to allow her to just barely ORKO unpromoted enemies when promoted enemies are about to appear en masse.

Let's not talk about what happens when physical attacker Sumia with an Iron Lance gets targeted by a 2-range unit.

If we expect Iron Lance Sumia to be targeted by 2-range, then we will have equipped a Javelin beforehand, benefiting not only from Fred's +2 S-support boost, but also the +2 boost provided by A-rank lances (which ought to be enough for KOing Mages), and, most importantly of all, the Dual Attack chances from an S support. Even a round of unforged Javelin combat leaves a high chance of ORKOing Cavaliers in C15 due to her 1 - 0.35^2 = 87.75% chance scoring a fatal Frederick DA.

FFS, if I was going to use Dark Flier Sumia with Tomes in a playthrough, I'd actually make some attempt to make it viable. Prime her weapon rank with an Arms Scroll if you have to, switch her gradually over to Henry, give her the stat boosters that she needs. Who's to say that we're not also using Cordelia, and have the "flying lance" bit locked up already?

I mean, in most cases I'd prefer to bench Sumia use her as a lancer, but to go so far as to say that there's no point in a tome-using version is to jump right into Crazytown.

Again, I don't disagree with your claim that tome-wielding Sumia is salvageable.

[Interceptor]

I have no idea what you mean by using Sumia seriously.

Using her with the intention of giving her a chance to succeed; not just handing her whatever leftovers are available and seeing what happens.

Again, I don't disagree with your claim that tome-wielding Sumia is salvageable.

And I don't disagree with the idea that lance-wielding Sumia is better overall, in most situations, but in this case I'm not defending someone who has a less reasonable position than I do.

[General Horace]

comparing tome wielding sumia at her worst is kind of an unfair comparison too, once lategame rolls around, and she has B tomes or so, her damage output is much much higher than her lance wielding counterpart.

I mean she still probably ORKO's with a dual attack from her friend with lances, but tomes allow her to avoid counters and such which is a pretty big deal for her.

[Chiki]

So do forged Javelins.

Anyway, pairing up Sumia with Henry in an efficiency playthrough is pretty dumb. It can work but why do it when you already have an S support? There's absolutely no reason to. Can anyone name me a good reason why?

I've never seen anything come out of Interceptor's mouth (or keyboard) that isn't a personal insult or sophistry, so this post is addressed to anyone that isn't him.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Chiki

[ZemZem]

Anyway, pairing up Sumia with Henry in an efficiency playthrough is pretty dumb. It can work but why do it when you already have an S support? There's absolutely no reason to. Can anyone name me a good reason why?

Enemies in the Valm chapters tend to have higher DEF than RES, and a Henry/Sumia pair up is nice for the both of them because it gives Sumia some nice MAG so she can hit generals and other enemies harder.

[Chiki]

Enemies in the Valm chapters tend to have higher DEF than RES, and a Henry/Sumia pair up is nice for the both of them because it gives Sumia some nice MAG so she can hit generals and other enemies harder.

Beast Killer / Hammer Frederick as a partner takes care of that.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Chiki

[ZemZem]

Beast Killer / Hammer Frederick as a partner takes care of that.

True, but Henry as a partner also hits fairly hard, in case Sumia can't fully 1RKO what she's attacking.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

So, Henry joined in chapter..... 13?

13 - Support Rank in Chapter 13. Lol

14 - Does jack. Maybe get C Rank here

15 - Unreliable C Rank for a pretty annoying chapter. If theres any chapter where you want a consistent Dual Strikes, its this one

16 - This chapter is a joke. Maybe gets B here

17 - BK Frederick > Henry

18 - Standard chapter in general. A Rank.

19 - BK Frederick

20 - Henry started the lead here

Uhhh thats not exactly good

Edited May 29, 2013 by JSND

[Chiki]

True, but Henry as a partner also hits fairly hard, in case Sumia can't fully 1RKO what she's attacking.

Henry joins in C13. Guess how many rout chapters there are after that? 3. 3 out of around 14 chapters. Sumia doesn't have much chance to gain support points whereas she has an S support with Frederick. If Sumia has a C support with Henry by 15, then it's a liability to use Henry instead of Frederick when Frederick has a far higher chance to attack and gives better pair up bonuses.

23 and 24 come after that. I suppose one could say that Frederick and Henry are equal as husbands to Sumia by that time, but what's the point in needlessly pairing Sumia up with Henry when they're equals? Henry can simply marry someone else. It's a waste of an S support.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Chiki

[Folt]

Beast Killer / Hammer Frederick as a partner takes care of that.

Sully, Cordelia, Panne, and/or Stahl (and even Vaike or Cherche), as well as Sumia herself competes for those. Henry as a pair-up partner for Sumia doesn't compete with resources that other (better in the long run) physical units can use, and he will end up better in the long run if trained (which isn't all that hard). Meanwhile, Henry can assist Sumia with Tome training (moreso if Sumia gets the Arms Scroll as a Dark Flier), and his high Skill will allow him a decent Dual Strike proc chance while you're building up that support.

Henry joins in C13. Guess how many rout chapters there are after that? 3. 3 out of around 14 chapters. Sumia doesn't have much chance to gain support points whereas she has an S support with Frederick, If Sumia has a C support with Henry by 15, then it's a liability to use Henry instead of Frederick when Frederick has a far higher chance to attack and gives better pair up bonuses.

23 and 24 come after that. I suppose one could say that Frederick and Henry are equal as husbands to Sumia by that time, but what's the point in needlessly pairing Sumia up with Henry when they're equals? Henry can simply marry someone else. It's a waste of an S support.

Getting Henry to C Support before Chapter 15 is actually fairly easy, particularly so if you've opened up Kjelle's or Morgan's Paralogues. And switching from Frederick to Henry allows you two units that can handle the lategame, instead of just one. Doing a no-grind run with Dark Flier Sumia/Henry instead of Falcon Knight Sumia/Frederick is both doable and fairly harmless.