SSB4: SSB for Wii U and 3DS, maybe the NX and also your toaster!

[Ema Skye]

The list isn't saying that Ike is a crappy character.

It's saying that Ike isn't winning tournaments in Japan.

[Jedi]

The Japanese list is only on tournament results as Starbound says

[Anacybele]

Yeah, exactly. It was just stated earlier that Ike does very well in tournaments out west. And Japanese are incorrect to focus mostly on FD because FD caters too much to projectiles.

*She*

...How could I not notice this after how many times I've seen Samias post? -_-

Edited December 5, 2014 by Anacybele

[Florete]

A little on the late side now, but I don't think I've ever seen Robin considered a top 5 character. Maybe top 10, but not top 5. Top 5 contenders tend to be Diddy, Sheik, Rosalina, Zero Suit Samus, and Sonic, while Yoshi, Mii Brawler, Lucario, and Greninja tend to get mentioned but I don't see them in or winning tournaments a lot. I have seen some really good play from Robin, Ike, and Luigi, though, including a Luigi player who came from losers bracket and 4-0'd a Sonic player in grand finals.

I also like how some people who clearly don't know much about the tournament scene are acting like they do. I'm not the most knowledgeable myself, but I do know my limits.

Anyway, for now I wouldn't put too much stock in any tier list. Not only is the game still relatively new, the cast is bigger than ever before and custom specials add even more to the mix. Just trust that Diddy Kong is top tier at the moment.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Red Fox of Fire

[Carter]

I wish Peach could be back in the Top 10, like she was in Melee, but it's fine as long as she's not bottom tier.

Zelda, I expected to be low tier. But honestly, I don't give three craps about where she stands. She'll still be one of my favorites, and I'll continue to play as her regardless of how "good" she is. And it's certainly better than second-to-worst! Ha, my three mains are spread across the tier list. One being awesome, one just average, and one absolute crap xD.

Honestly, I'm surprised to see Ness up so high! Compared to the Brawl Tier List, he's definitely improved, and I'm glad.

[Elieson]

I wish Peach could be back in the Top 10, like she was in Melee, but it's fine as long as she's not bottom tier.

Zelda, I expected to be low tier. But honestly, I don't give three craps about where she stands. She'll still be one of my favorites, and I'll continue to play as her regardless of how "good" she is. And it's certainly better than second-to-worst! Ha, my three mains are spread across the tier list. One being awesome, one just average, and one absolute crap xD.

Honestly, I'm surprised to see Ness up so high! Compared to the Brawl Tier List, he's definitely improved, and I'm glad.

With Naryu's as such a solid reflect & roll punishing move, and Farore's being one of the more powerful Up specials out there, I can't quite see why she's so low tier in Japan. I guess her moveset is too situational for general use>?

[Comet]

The most effective use of counter is not to use it. Even just having it without using it makes it a boon as it makes players much more wary about using high risk attacks. Using it in the air is also useful since you can't easily be grabbed in the air. Unfortunately getting a good counter is just so dang satisfying, I personally can't help but over use it a lot.

saw this a while ago and no. if you don't ever use it, people aren't going to respect that you have the option to because they know you won't go for it. if you really want to use it, just make sure you use it successfully a few times so your opponent actually will do that and you can start some mindgames. see ken vs pc chris at mlg (i think it was mlg?).

[Florete]

With Naryu's as such a solid reflect & roll punishing move, and Farore's being one of the more powerful Up specials out there, I can't quite see why she's so low tier in Japan. I guess her moveset is too situational for general use>?

It's entirely possible that people just aren't using her a lot. She was average-bad in Melee and Brawl and retains a lot of similarities. She doesn't feel great out of the box, so good players aren't trying her much. Additionally, Farore's Wind is going to be really easy to see coming for top-level players; it'll take hard predictions for tournament players to get kills with that.

[Elieson]

It's entirely possible that people just aren't using her a lot. She was average-bad in Melee and Brawl and retains a lot of similarities. She doesn't feel great out of the box, so good players aren't trying her much. Additionally, Farore's Wind is going to be really easy to see coming for top-level players; it'll take hard predictions for tournament players to get kills with that.

Yea that's what I am beginning to see. It requires quite a bit of spacing, and opportunity as well, which doesn't loan itself to practical use. Ike's Aether is pretty reliable and Kirby's sword as well. I must just be leaving myself open to more instances of FW than I realize, if i'm still threatened by it.

[Comet]

It's entirely possible that people just aren't using her a lot. She was average-bad in Melee and Brawl and retains a lot of similarities. She doesn't feel great out of the box, so good players aren't trying her much. Additionally, Farore's Wind is going to be really easy to see coming for top-level players; it'll take hard predictions for tournament players to get kills with that.

zelda's really bad in both games, just to clarify that she's not average. i don't exactly know what her problems are in brawl, but she doesn't really have an approach in melee along with having bad moves in general outside of the kicks and down smash. for farore's wind the main problem i see is that it's slow enough to react to so it can be shielded and punished because shield properties are ridiculous in this game, along with being predictable.

and Farore's being one of the more powerful Up specials out there

people really need to stop thinking like this. it's not "how strong are certain moves?", it's "does this character have reliable finishers?".

[Samias]

With Naryu's as such a solid reflect & roll punishing move, and Farore's being one of the more powerful Up specials out there, I can't quite see why she's so low tier in Japan. I guess her moveset is too situational for general use>?

Zelda doesn't have a good approach at all. Her ground speed is pretty bad and her lateral air movement isn't very good either. She has such devastating sweet spots that are easier to pull off than ever, but her aerials are still not good for getting in with how the hitboxes are constructed. She can KO very early if she's spaced just right but really struggles to keep anyone locked down. That said I think the change to Farore's Wind will keep people on their toes. The grounded FW is predictable but it makes trying to edgeguard Zelda more dangerous. Now if only Din's Fire didn't put her in a helpless state...

[shadowofchaos]

And then there's the part where Japanese players have what we know as "character god" players.

Really, I have a hard time taking people seriously in this thread, when their knowledge doesn't exactly reflect their judgments of said list.

Like say, you appear that you're just bellyaching because your character is so low on a list other people made reflecting their competitive scene.

Remember Link?

But anyways, I'm not exactly sure how to properly say this without being offensive or sounding like I'm elevating myself above other people...

But simple judgements like:

"This character can't possibly be in the top five... they lack power... etc."

To get past the initial judgments you have of a character, you need to face a good player as well as actually have... played as said character.

You can probably imagine who I'm taking a shot at.

Anyways, I can see Robin being in Top 10. Emphasis on "CAN". I mean sure we can take into account the technical skill that people are willing to go for, but Robin's Levin Sword (from my own experience) are really only reliable on Aerials. Landing lag isn't that bad. From what I've seen, they don't have the pressure unless that Arcfire is aimed accurately. Anything involving the Levin Sword while on the ground almost feels REALLY close to the lag it comes out being just slightly slower than Ike's Up Smash.

I love how Falcon went from being crap in Brawl to decent.

Edited December 5, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[Ein]

Tournament based tier lists seem super dumb considering how much people play the higher tier characters in general.

[Samias]

Tournament based tier lists seem super dumb considering how much people play the higher tier characters in general.

The people who made the list did weigh tournament results heavily, but they did do some general analysis. I think the E tier is mostly underused but the top tier is consistent between NA and Japan right now, especially Diddy because his throws and aerials are ridiculous. That said, while NA is considered the better region for Melee, Japan had better results in Brawl, so they may have the edge again in Smash 4 depending on how the new scene develops and whether or not people decide to go back to Melee or Project M.

And everyone involved in the Smash 4 tourney scene keeps stressing the difference between bottom and top is not that large. You can stick with your favourites and win. The top 10 are consistently high in the brackets, but regional tournaments all over NA have seen a variety of characters win, including so-called bottom tiers. It's also early and Japan only just got the Wii U version of the game. Toon Link was considered near the bottom on the 3DS but his moves come out several faster in the Wii U version. His grab is something like 8-10 frames faster than the 3DS version! Some more technical characters may also rise as it's easier to perform advanced techs on the GCN and Pro controllers.

[Ein]

So the tier list is more of a frequency of use in tournaments. Reasonable.

[Mighty Kamina]

Tournament based tier lists seem super dumb considering how much people play the higher tier characters in general.

It's a vicious cycle of sorts. The higher characters will keep winning, and the lower characters will see less and less use, until someone like AmSa or Mango come in and surprise everyone with a character previously thought not viable.

[Ein]

It's a vicious cycle of sorts. The higher characters will keep winning, and the lower characters will see less and less use, until someone like AmSa or Mango come in and surprise everyone with a character previously thought not viable.

Nairu's Zelda shows a great deal of promise for example.

[Jedi]

Everything is subject to change. I use Marth, Ike, Link, Zelda, Shulk and Pit mainly.

Regardless of their list placements, I also tend to bounce around the cast. Using everything (except Diddy Kong because eff Diddy Kong)

[Florete]

zelda's really bad in both games, just to clarify that she's not average. i don't exactly know what her problems are in brawl, but she doesn't really have an approach in melee along with having bad moves in general outside of the kicks and down smash. for farore's wind the main problem i see is that it's slow enough to react to so it can be shielded and punished because shield properties are ridiculous in this game, along with being predictable.

Zelda's not that bad in Melee. She's far from great, but I'd sooner call her average than bad. It helps that her lightning kick was way easier to hit with in Melee than in Brawl or Smash 4.

[Dandragon]

Zelda's not that bad in Melee. She's far from great, but I'd sooner call her average than bad. It helps that her lightning kick was way easier to hit with in Melee than in Brawl or Smash 4.

Of course, many things were easier to hit with in Melee.

[shadowofchaos]

Of course, many things were easier to hit with in Melee.

The Knee of Justice was so great.

[Jedi]

I have a question, I will be getting the Wii U version on Christmas but, there is one thing I need to know.

Can I play the game completely just on the gamepad? If so I may be able to use local areas to play online sometimes like I do with 3DS. (or I can afford a hotspot.)

Edited December 5, 2014 by Jedi

[Dandragon]

Can I play the game completely just on the gamepad?

That's sort of the whole reason for the gamepad, but yeah.

[Jedi]

That's sort of the whole reason for the gamepad, but yeah.

Well some games don't have that option, due to various things. Like you needing the screen with the gamepad for something else.

[Comet]

Zelda's not that bad in Melee. She's far from great, but I'd sooner call her average than bad. It helps that her lightning kick was way easier to hit with in Melee than in Brawl or Smash 4.

she can't really do anything if you camp, relies on you walking into bairs (which certainly can happen if you don't know the match up), doesn't have any particularly good options for dealing with pressure, and has a bad grab (frame 12 vs frame 7 on almost everyone else) so shield grabbing won't work unless your opponent is bad. then again, we can just agree to disagree.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Comet