Is Armsthrift overrated?

[Chiki]

I don't think the implication was that your playthrough wasn't worth caring about, but rather that Counter et al. would potentially pose problems if, for example, the entire map spawned with Counter. I wouldn't know anything about this, since I've never tried using Nosferatu on Lunatic+.

No, he said "personal experience means nothing," which means that my personal experience with my playthrough wasn't worth caring about. But his argument about bow users is just as much PEMN, so he's quite the hypocrite:

Truth, here. My Lunatic+ team is nothing but bow users: a combination of Warriors, Snipers, Bow Knights, and Assassins. Once you have enough Avoid/DEF to survive face-tanking, it becomes a powerful strategy that makes Counter useless.

It's a little unlikely for an entire map to spawn with Counter.

Anyway, you just need to play really slowly and carefully. By looking for enemies with Counter and trying to kill them on the player phase, you can decrease your chance of death by a lot. A Sol + Nosferatu combo negates Counter completely.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Chiki

[Interceptor]

No, he said "personal experience means nothing," which means that my personal experience with my playthrough wasn't worth caring about.

You must be new here. PEMN means that your experience with RNG isn't representative of everyone else's. That's why it's the standard reply when someone brags about Lyn being awesome because she got STR/DEF every level.

Don't make me connect the dots for you, here.

It's a little unlikely for an entire map to spawn with Counter.

Anyway, you just need to play really slowly and carefully. By looking for enemies with Counter and trying to kill them on the player phase, you can decrease your chance of death by a lot. A Sol + Nosferatu combo negates Counter completely.

It's things like this that make me wonder about you.

You don't need the entire map to spawn with Counter: just a sufficient number of key ones. A bad roll and you have a high CoD. And just for those reading who might be mislead by your bluster/exaggeration/lack of details, Sol + Nosferatu combo only negates Counter in the case where 1) Sol activates, and 2) the enemy actually has enough health to steal back.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Interceptor

[Chiki]

You must be new here. PEMN means that your experience with RNG isn't representative of everyone else's. That's why it's the standard reply when someone brags about Lyn being awesome because she got STR/DEF every level.

That applies to your playthrough just as much as it does mine. Perhaps you got lucky with your level ups and the skills you got in your chapters?

Sol + Nosferatu combo only negates Counter in the case where 1) Sol activates, and 2) the enemy actually has enough health to steal back.

When one says Sol + Nosferatu, it presupposes that Sol activates, obviously. If the Avatar has around 35 skill by the time she becomes a Sorcerer, she can activate Sol once every three attacks. If she does that and gets a double attack, she can heal more than she takes damage from Counter.

Anyway, as I said, you have to be intelligent--don't let Counter users attack when they don't have enough health to steal back. Play slowly.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Chiki

[Interceptor]

That applies to your playthrough just as much as it does mine. Perhaps you got lucky with your level ups and the skills you got in your chapters?

Or in other words, you don't have a useful working concept of what "just as much" actually means. High concrete defenses and completely ignoring one Lunatic+ skill while negating or sharply reducing the impact of all of the others, is actually highly reliable in practice.

When one says Sol + Nosferatu, it presupposes that Sol activates, obviously. If the Avatar has around 35 skill by the time she becomes a Sorcerer, she can activate Sol once every three attacks. If she does that and gets a double attack, she can heal more than she takes damage from Counter.

Anyway, as I said, you have to be intelligent--don't let Counter users attack when they don't have enough health to steal back. Play slowly.

I'm just clarifying for anyone else reading along. You have a bad habit of leaving out critical details.

Setting aside for a moment that 35% skill activation doesn't result in "one Sol every three attacks", Counter isn't the only source of damage taken, and you tread a very fine line. Not even Dual Strikes will take effect before the Counter.

So are you prepared to admit that I have a point about Armsthrift, or are we going to continue your streak of obstinacy and hand-waving and shiny objects?

Edited June 18, 2013 by Interceptor

[Chiki]

Or in other words, you don't have a useful working concept of what "just as much" actually means. High concrete defenses and completely ignoring one Lunatic+ skill while negating or sharply reducing the impact of all of the others, is actually highly reliable in practice.

But training your bow users is quite tedious, as it's ultimately your own personal experience that your units got the stats they did. Your playthrough is worth nothing, going by your own reasoning.

I'm just clarifying for anyone else reading along. You have a bad habit of leaving out critical details.

Setting aside for a moment that 35% skill activation doesn't result in "one Sol every three attacks", Counter isn't the only source of damage taken, and you tread a very fine line. Not even Dual Strikes will take effect before the Counter.

So are you prepared to admit that I have a point about Armsthrift, or are we going to continue your streak of obstinacy and hand-waving and shiny objects?

If I was able to beat Lunatic+ in under 10 hours, it means that RNG abuse was minimal. I simply had no need to restart for Counters, because I can play well enough and carefully enough that Counter was not a problem for me--and when it was, Nosferatu was more than enough to keep me alive. It was perfectly reliable for me, and I'm sure it'd be reliable for anyone else who will try this strategy. I'm sorry, but your strategy involving bow users is outright inferior to mine.

[Interceptor]

You saw it, folks: obstinacy and inability to admit when someone has a point.

But training your bow users is quite tedious

There are no "buts" in play here. It results in high reliability and repeatability, which was the goal in the first place. You may as well complain that a banana isn't useful for putting up drywall. This isn't a poli-sci class where your opinion about something is relevant.

If I was able to beat Lunatic+ in under 10 hours, it means that RNG abuse was minimal.

This is an epic logic fail if I ever saw one, since a soft reset/reload adds no time to the clock whatsoever.

It was perfectly reliable for me

Which is why we say "PEMN", generally speaking, when it comes to the RNG.

I'm sorry

It's magnanimous of you to offer an apology, but I assure you that I'm not the least bit offended by your endless parade of childishness.

[Chiki]

You know Interceptor's out of things to say when he's completely ignored all of my points and instead responded with personal attacks and rhetoric. For example, he completely ignored the part where I talked about his units' stats being personal experience because he knew he was wrong.

Getting back on topic, people.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Chiki

[Donnel]

Get over it guys. One man's meat is another man's poison.

I myself have armsthrift so that my characters can hold more rescue staffs in their own inventory rather then trying to 'convoy' for them.

We have our own preference of skills to use and not to use, OP merely asked if armsthift is overated.

On topic: Armsthift is not overated since it does what is intended for and nobody claimed it beyond what it is capable. (Stated in earlier post)

[shadykid]

I remember spending 3 turns on the 4th secret round of Apotheosis (no Limit Breaker/Aggressor) using Hammernes on all my nearly-broken Celica's Gales

shit was hilarious, still had three more turns to spare though

still, Armsthrift is really a convience skill

[eclipse]

Winner: Interceptor.

My use for Armsthrift is to abuse glass weapons, followed by legendaries. This means I need a near-perfect activation on Armsthrift (especially for the glass weapons), so it's reserved for super-late postgame. Given that I am extremely stingy with those things that I have problems replacing, it is well worth it for me.

[Donnel]

Winner: Interceptor.

My use for Armsthrift is to abuse glass weapons, followed by legendaries. This means I need a near-perfect activation on Armsthrift (especially for the glass weapons), so it's reserved for super-late postgame. Given that I am extremely stingy with those things that I have problems replacing, it is well worth it for me.

Why is there a winner for a opinion question? lol

Armsthift are fun, Bow runs are fun, so is using Underdog bow, glass weapons and all these low grade low durability but amazing mt stuffs.

You get them often from event tiles, and you won't be utilizing them without armsthrift.

[Folt]

I mainly use Armsthrift for convenience, since it's a more convenient skill to use than Aptitude or Discipline, and it saves me times I need to play Golden Gaffe and Infinite Regalia.

Other than that, I don't really need it (due to so much money I an buy a shitload of weapons and forge them too), so chalk me up in the camp who thinks it's overrated. Kinda like Galeforce in that regard.

Get over it guys. One man's meat is another man's poison.

I myself have armsthrift so that my characters can hold more rescue staffs in their own inventory rather then trying to 'convoy' for them.

We have our own preference of skills to use and not to use, OP merely asked if armsthift is overated.

On topic: Armsthift is not overated since it does what is intended for and nobody claimed it beyond what it is capable. (Stated in earlier post)

I'm pretty sure that Armsthrift doesn't proc for staff use, you know?

[Faye]

As a shameless grinder, I must say I adore Armsthrift. I don't think it's overrated at all, since it's actually a useful skill for post-game and DLC. I love my beautiful forged Glass weapons, and I don't want 'em to break! <3

[CT075]

whether or not it's overrated i find it's pretty useful to have a hero!MU running around with a 3 use handaxe that lasts for four chapters

Edited June 18, 2013 by CT075

[Interceptor]

Why is there a winner for a opinion question? lol

It's not a matter of opinion. The question of "is Armthrift overrated?" is arguable -- mostly because the question is braindead and overly ambiguous -- but denying Armsthrift's basic usefulness is clown-school material. What you just witnessed was a case study on why it's better to admit fault on a small thing, than to compound the mistake tenfold by trying to breakdance your way out of the original error.

Or in other words, the first thing you need to do when you find yourself in a hole, is to stop digging.

I'm pretty sure that Armsthrift doesn't proc for staff use, you know?

I think that the point here is that Armsthrift keep you from having to stock backup weapons, which allows inventory space to be used for extra staves instead.

As a shameless grinder, I must say I adore Armsthrift. I don't think it's overrated at all, since it's actually a useful skill for post-game and DLC. I love my beautiful forged Glass weapons, and I don't want 'em to break! <3

Just for the battle model? Because they are identical to Silver weapons otherwise.

[Folt]

Ah. That makes sense.

[AVahne]

It's best for Legendary weapons that you don't want to have to find again (and makes former unbreakable weapons like Ragnell unbreakable again) and for your favorite and/or expensive forged weapons that you don't want to reforge.

[shadowjam]

It's overrated outside of grinding, Apotheosis, Lunatic enemies that can tank attacks unless they come from forged brave or legendary weapons, and Future Past reinforcements...

Other than the above, it is unnecessary, as you can manage even without no-break weapons caused by armsthrift...

It's best for Legendary weapons that you don't want to have to find again (and makes former unbreakable weapons like Ragnell unbreakable again) and for your favorite and/or expensive forged weapons that you don't want to reforge.

^ You can always leave legendary weapons in convoy until they are really necessary... Just forge buyable weapons to make them psuedo-legendary weapons in strength terms...

Edited June 18, 2013 by shadowjam

[Chiki]

It's not a matter of opinion. The question of "is Armthrift overrated?" is arguable -- mostly because the question is braindead and overly ambiguous -- but denying Armsthrift's basic usefulness is clown-school material. What you just witnessed was a case study on why it's better to admit fault on a small thing, than to compound the mistake tenfold by trying to breakdance your way out of the original error.

You know, I'm starting to think you're a troll. You consistently ignore all of my points in every debate we have and instead make sarcastic remarks and rhetoric to convince the mindless people that read your posts, and claim that I'm the one being stubborn when I'm not the one ignoring any of the points you make.

If you really are a troll, though, then you are quite a good one.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Chiki

[Tables]

You know, I'm starting to think you're a troll. You consistently ignore all of my points in every debate we have and instead make sarcastic remarks and rhetoric to convince the mindless people that read your posts, and claim that I'm the one being stubborn when I'm not the one ignoring any of the points you make.

If you really are a troll, though, then you are quite a good one.

Man, reading things like this is why I love the internet. Can't win an argument by debating? Try an ad hominen! Face it: Interceptor's points are better than yours. The point that you had to try and bring in unverifiable personal experience to desperately defend your points was the moment you lost the argument.

Oh, and regarding Armsthrift: The more I think, the more I realise I was mostly rating based on my experience with it with Donny. And he uses it like a total boss. Which makes it a very good skill in a casual run, but rating on casual runs is pretty... awkward at best. He's not an efficient character, that's for sure. Outside of him, it's of some value to Gregor, viable on Cordelia, and Avatar has better class choices, but of minimal value overall. Still useful, but not really great. So overrated? I dunno, how good are people saying it is? If we're to assume say Chiki's view was the norm, it's underrated for sure.

[The Fush]

I'm pretty sure the reason why Armsthrift has been seen as overrated here is because half the discussion has been on Lunatic+ where bows of all things are your saviors and 1 range is suicidal unless you want to go face numpties with Hawkeye Luna+. In a mode like that, you'd sooner be worrying about nabbing the recovery skill or deciding whether using Lon'qu is a worthy investment for the sake of Vantage or something like that because I don't know the mode because I haven't played it and I probably never will be or be able to like quite a few other people here.

Basically, if you were to look at it from Hard and Lunatic mode 75% of the posts in this thread would make a whole lot more sense

[Comet]

It's not overrated. It saves you LOTS of money if using a brave weapon that never breaks. It also allows you to bring different weapons without worrying about backups, as mentioned before. It's also much more convenient as it allows you to not have to worry about buying new weapons or having to soft reset for things like Aversa's Night.

[Randa]

You know, I'm starting to think you're a troll. You consistently ignore all of my points in every debate we have and instead make sarcastic remarks and rhetoric to convince the mindless people that read your posts, and claim that I'm the one being stubborn when I'm not the one ignoring any of the points you make.

If you really are a troll, though, then you are quite a good one.

Best post in the thread. Insulting people totally gets them on your side.

Back to the point I have no idea what the argument was about, but if we consider that some of the best unit IMO are DLC and Spotpass characters Armsthrift can be very helpful to train them for other runs. I can see why epeople don't think it's great but I don't see anyone saying its the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[Elieson]

Olwen, I think you're misrepresenting you own question. You are asking "is Armsthrift overrated?" in a bubble of which you have created, where Armsthrift is viewed as useless with mild exceptions. Anyone who values Armsthrift therefore automatically values it more than you, and is thus deeming it "overrated" simply by the presence of value.

You've detracted from your point by following Interceptor's debate so adamantly. Answer the question yourself.

From a purely statistic point of view, where numbers mean everything not Playthrough attempts, is Armsthrift useful?

In fact, distinguish the difference between useful and overrated, so we can answer your question more accurately. I, for one, enjoy having my 25,000+ weapons last longer for a pretty much assured 1hit, if not more. The way I play doesn't involve money grinding, so I'd rather not shell out so much money for forges so my units that solo chapters run out mid-battle around for instance, ch19-21. The value in itself allows you to purchase ad force additional weaponry for your other units to be more effective in combat.

I see Armsthrift as useful, not necessary. A convenient luxury, if you will. You seem to view the skill as an end-all-be-all "use it because it's greatmazing" or "don't use it ever it's junk".

Just clarify the difference better, and be more accepting of a middle ground.

[Dark Sage]

Guys when people are saying Armsthrift is overrated, they are thinking of gamefaqs; I remember going on the boards and reading other units say that it's almost as good as Galeforce and everyone should reclass to get it. Idk if that's still the case though.

I don't actually have an opinion on it though.