Jeigan Quest

[Baldrick]

other units being able to do it better doesn't make FE11 jagen not great throughout the entire game.

Doesn't that go against the whole mindset of efficiency? Unit W can do this thing, but Units X, Y, Z do it better so W isn't that great?

[Refa]

other units being able to do it better doesn't make FE11 jagen not great throughout the entire game.

I dunno, being able to kill enemies with Ridersbanes and Armorslayers is something anyone who can use them can do. It doesn't really make Jeigan a particularly good unit later on, it just means that Ridersbanes and Armorslayers are really good. And he's pretty chumpy against enemies he doesn't have effective against...Or Dragons, even with the effective.

EDIT Although I guess not that many mounts have C+ rank lances/swords? Maybe he's better than I gave him credit for, I haven't beaten H5, so getting chumps like Matthis to C lances is a totally viable option for me.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Refa

[Shin]

Yo, I've had a try at the first few chapters of Lyn mode. Whilst it's a good exercise to practice hacking, the game is unfortunately rather dull. You can actively try to get your units killed and they'll still survive. It may be an idea to change around the enemies to suit the changes you've made.

On the topic of Jeigans, FE3 book 1 is probably the only game where they're not very good. Arran in book 2 can get by on the shards. Dagda's bases are so insane that he lasts most of the game, and is a good unit with scrolls. FE6 Marcus can be taken to endgame on NM and lasts until the end of the isles on HM. FE7Marcus is bro, and FE11!Jeigan can also last much of the game. FE12!Arran isn't great but that's because the prologue exists.

[Refa]

Arran in book 2 can get by on the shards.

Only because Biraku isn't playable and therefore doesn't have the claim to ALL OF THEM.

[dondon151]

Doesn't that go against the whole mindset of efficiency? Unit W can do this thing, but Units X, Y, Z do it better so W isn't that great?

the mindset of efficiency is saving turns. jagen saves turns. what's the problem?

I dunno, being able to kill enemies with Ridersbanes and Armorslayers is something anyone who can use them can do. It doesn't really make Jeigan a particularly good unit later on, it just means that Ridersbanes and Armorslayers are really good. And he's pretty chumpy against enemies he doesn't have effective against...Or Dragons, even with the effective.

EDIT Although I guess not that many mounts have C+ rank lances/swords? Maybe he's better than I gave him credit for, I haven't beaten H5, so getting chumps like Matthis to C lances is a totally viable option for me.

if you're warpskipping, you don't have very many units at C+ lances and swords. jagen has effective damage against like, everyone, because that's FE11 enemy composition for you. he probably can't do chapters 24 or F well, but i've already disproved the OP's point.

[Refa]

Aha, makes sense. I'll defer to your warpskip wisdom on this one. I don't think anyone besides like super amazing characters do the last two chapters well anyways.

[CT075]

@the guy who brought up growths

who cares about poor growths when you have a) ridiculous statboosters (fe1!jeigan), 20 stat caps (dagda) or just manage to flat out wreck the entire game anyway (fe7!marcus, etc)

[Espinosa]

of course i'm right. we've had this discussion before. the irony is that jagen is a better long-term unit than oifaye is, yet their archetypes represent the converse.

only FE12 arran and FE6 marcus really dropped off significantly in their respective games. frederick if you count lunatic mode. but jagen, dagdar, FE7 marcus, seth, and titania are all great throughout the entire game.

Doesn't Marcus require a more expensive, powerful Ridersbane forge to OHKO enemies with it? Meanwhile, Cain beats him in strength by 4/0 (still most likely too far from C lances) and Abel by 6/0 (only losing in hit rates), and the gap only keeps growing between them.

+4 Ridersbane has 36 effective mt, and in case of, say, chapter 10 cavs you need 43 atk to OHKO. Jeigan's 7 str + lance rank ensures he still works fine here, but the cavs/paladins only continue growing from here.

[CT075]

Doesn't Marcus require a more expensive, powerful Ridersbane forge [...]

pretty sure you meant jeigan

[MacLovin]

Pretty sure that Marcus and Cain don't exist in the same game. Unless they do in fe13 dlc.

Anyways, Jeigan units are competant for the entire game and shouldn't be forgotten. Now ests on the other hand...

[Baldrick]

the mindset of efficiency is saving turns. jagen saves turns. what's the problem?

Not beyond the first dozen chapters or so. Lategame Jagen is outclassed by pretty much everyone. My specific problem is the contention he's a better long-term prospect than Oifaye.

[Espinosa]

Not beyond the first dozen chapters or so. Lategame Jagen is outclassed by pretty much everyone. My specific problem is the contention he's a better long-term prospect than Oifaye.

The point of view is that maps are warpskipped in a very meticulously determined specific way and as a result characters do not get to catch up to Jeigan. Dondon also plays every FE game by hacking all the growths to 0, so he often underestimates growth units because in 0% growth runs you don't really see anything besides weapon rank grow. The positive sides of this is that the focus on units' immediate application is invaluable for tier list discussions (which were often held in the past), and the challenging aspects of the restricted run still let the player match (or almost match) the turn counts one would get WITH growths.

Oh yeah, I toyed around with the hack and noticed:

- it's impossible to lose in the early chapters

- you cannot end a turn prematurely and have to select 'wait' with every stationary character which is annoying, notably in defence maps

- sometimes units don't counter when they should and I've also noticed that enemies sometimes double your units when it should be the other way around

- not having a flier makes some of the maps stupidly long and boring, removing much of the planning that makes Lyn Mode maps at least decently interesting

Edited June 27, 2013 by Espinosa

[Baldrick]

I'll admit I don't know a lot about warpskip strategy, but would you ever warp Jagen over Sheeda/Tiki/someone with existent Str?

It's a fair point about 0% growths; if you nullify a unit's biggest weakness, they'll obviously seem better than they actually are in the long-term.

[dondon151]

Not beyond the first dozen chapters or so. Lategame Jagen is outclassed by pretty much everyone. My specific problem is the contention he's a better long-term prospect than Oifaye.

of course he is outclassed by pretty much everyone. that doesn't matter; what's relevant is that he can still fulfill a consequential role on the team. oifaye (from hearsay because i can't stand FE4) has trouble being productive later in the game whereas FE11 jagen has to go no farther than to reclass, pick up a forged weapon, and blick a couple of enemies to oblivion.

now, some argue that this says more about forged effective weaponry being OP than it does about jagen being good. but if the game designers gave jagen all of the means to use this forged effective weaponry, doesn't that mean that he's perfectly adequate as a long-term unit?

Doesn't Marcus Jagen require a more expensive, powerful Ridersbane forge to OHKO enemies with it? Meanwhile, Cain beats him in strength by 4/0 (still most likely too far from C lances) and Abel by 6/0 (only losing in hit rates), and the gap only keeps growing between them.

+4 Ridersbane has 36 effective mt, and in case of, say, chapter 10 cavs you need 43 atk to OHKO. Jeigan's 7 str + lance rank ensures he still works fine here, but the cavs/paladins only continue growing from here.

so first of all, we have to establish the context of our playthrough. in a warpskip, you literally have to fight no one past like, chapter 17. here you don't need anything stronger than a +4 ridersbane, and scrubs like cain who start out with E lances will have trouble getting to C lances - or even promotion, for that matter.

if you don't warpskip, jagen needs more help. okay, just forge a stronger ridersbane. you have enough money anyway. this lasts him a bit longer, but at some point when the enemy cavaliers start promoting to paladins, it's no longer worth it to try to OHKO. but that's still okay, because the enemy density in this game is so low that it really shouldn't be a problem with careful strategizing.

remember, i'm not making any arguments here that jagen is going to be better than cain, abel, hardin, etc. there's no question that he's decidedly worse. however, he doesn't "fall off" until the very end of the game on the hardest difficulty if you impose a restriction on yourself from using the warp staff.

(oh man, if marcus were in FE11...)

[Klokinator]

I think the big issue is that the noobs assume that because Marcus only gets 2 exp per kill and the other units will be "better" in lategame, this makes him a shitty unit. I saw the 0% growths run you did and clearly marcus could handle every enemy in the game, and his only competition for a better unit was hawkeye, pent, and harken, and all of those units appeared waaaay later in the game. WITH growths he's practically a monster, so calling him terrible is an exaggeration beyond belief.

[Refa]

I think the big issue is that the noobs assume that because Marcus only gets 2 exp per kill and the other units will be "better" in lategame, this makes him a shitty unit. I saw the 0% growths run you did and clearly marcus could handle every enemy in the game, and his only competition for a better unit was hawkeye, pent, and harken, and all of those units appeared waaaay later in the game. WITH growths he's practically a monster, so calling him terrible is an exaggeration beyond belief.

I have a contention with that statement!

I'm fairly certain Marcus gets FOUR EXP per kill!!

BIG DIFFERENCE

of course he is outclassed by pretty much everyone. that doesn't matter; what's relevant is that he can still fulfill a consequential role on the team. oifaye (from hearsay because i can't stand FE4) has trouble being productive later in the game whereas FE11 jagen has to go no farther than to reclass, pick up a forged weapon, and blick a couple of enemies to oblivion.

But Oifaye's crazy good in FE4 0% growths!

[Baldrick]

I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying about Jagen, but being an adequate Ridersbane user isn’t really worth much. Even base Est is an adequate Ridersbane user.

Lacking non-combat utility and a Holy Weapon, Oifaye doesn’t do anything amazing in the last chapters but he’s certainly productive in my experience. Having a horse, pursuit and good combat at any range makes him automatically better than half the roster, and with the virtually uncontested Skill Ring he’ll claim a Hero Sword, which works well with his Critical skill. Significantly, he’s not competing for a deployment slot either.

[dondon151]

this is where i chuckle a little bit because jagen is a much better ridersbane user than est, not the least because he has a higher lance weapon rank and he's already promoted.

[Anouleth]

Okay, here's the deal. Jeigans are okay in the beginning, right? They turn shitty later on. Later on in the game where you start facing promoted enemies. Enemies that are quite better than the enemies in the beginning. Let's use FE6 Marcus as an example. He's crap. He has the rates of a slug. But his bases are also horrendous. So while he may be good in the beginning, you put him up against enemies LATER on in the game, he is completely worthless.

The chances of him getting perfect level ups all the time are not high at all, so by the time late game comes, he will still have the stats of a 6 cavalier or something. So that destroys Redwall's argument of boss kill EXP, because his level ups are guaranteed to be atrocious.

Good unpromoted Units vs Unpromoted Enemies = somewhat challenging

Jeigans (with the great weapons they usually come with) vs unpromoted enemies = no challenge

Good promoted units vs promoted enemies = little less challenging

Jeigans vs promoted enemies = not going to happen.

Actually, the deal is that promoted enemies aren't common until Chapter 17 in FE6. Marcus is excellent from chapters 1-12 and there's pretty much no reason to use him, especially since the earlygame chapters are some of the hardest in the game (Chapter 4, 5, and 7 stand out here). It's true that Marcus isn't very useful after Chapter 12x, but even in Etruria chapters, he isn't awful, and it's a lot easier to pick up the slack in lategame than it is in earlygame. Using Marcus heavily in FE6 definitely has an impact on how strong your team is in lategame, but it makes your earlygame team far, far stronger, and it's a tradeoff that's definitely worth it.

[Baldrick]

this is where i chuckle a little bit because jagen is a much better ridersbane user than est,

Exactly. But she's an adequate ridersbane user. (That's how meaningful it is to say Jagen's performance is adequate)

[eCut]

Wow this has gone so far south that idek.

I'm going to make this short and sweet: the next person who makes a post that doesn't pertain to this hack will be getting warned.