Making Skill More Useful

[Doga]

What if certain weapons required certain levels of Skill for usage?

I guess this is is reminiscent of the Weapon Level stat from the first three games.

Get at me.

[Silverhand]

What...Like build but instead of a speed penalty you just couldnt use the weapon entirely?

That seems mighty unfair to low skill growth units.

[47948201]

Or if weapons had different skill modifiers instead of just having really high base hit?

So like you have 2 units. One has 10 skill and one has 20 skill. With an Iron sword, they have 2*10+90=110 and 2*20+90=130, respectively. With low rank weapons, hit rate growth is totally proportional to skill.

But then you have a Silver Sword. Instead of 80 hit, it might have 50 hit, but it takes triple your skill instead of double, so the units have 3*10+50=80 and 3*20+50=110. So having low skill is relatively more punishing when using certain weapons like that. (The numbers probably want refining, but you get the idea)

[SRC]

Yeah, making your lower-skill units actually miss here and there would be a good starting point. Even if your skill is Gonzales-bad, it doesn't matter that much since you basically get to pick what enemies your units will match up against. (I.e. he will rarely be fighting a sword unit without a reaver.)

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Yeah, making your lower-skill units actually miss here and there would be a good starting point.

Huh, I thought many hated this kind of stuff thanks to FE6

[shadykid]

what if critical chance was skill+other stuff instead of skill/2+other stuff

too much?

(also theoretically makes luck more useful)

Edited June 27, 2013 by shadykid

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Used to be in older FE

FE1 use (SKL + LCK)/2 + Crt for Crit formula

[dondon151]

TRS making skl give +3 hit per point already makes it much more useful

[SRC]

TRS making skl give +3 hit per point already makes it much more useful

Yeah, +3 hit per point worked nicely in that game. Just try to attack a few enemies with Garo and you can immediately feel the pain! Meanwhile, others could reliably get hit rates around 90-100 even with 70ish hit weapons.

This does make early game a little awkward, keeping bronze/maybe iron weapons high accuracy would remedy that.

[The Fush]

"Skill" makes me think of skill with what you do. Maybe it can alter how fast your weapon ranks grows.

[Snowy_One]

I approve of making it harder to hit and improving the value of SKL. ATM it seems like high skill/luck/RES units are near useless simply because everyone maxes hit, Luck has no value aside from minor AVO boosts (least once you negate enemy crits), and RES doesn't matter at ALL unless fighting mages, who are a minority at best.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

It was pretty useful in Thracia IIRC >_>

[Anouleth]

Any of:

-Take out weapon ranks, replace with skill

-Change the way that skills proc off skill

-Increase the crit bonus for each point of skill to 1:1 and reduce critical damage from 3x to 2x (or make criticals simply ignore defense rather than increase damage)

-Increase the hit bonus for each point of skill to 3:1, reduce weapon hit rates to compensate

[shadykid]

what about reintroducing Jugdral crits (2x your attack instead of 3x damage), on top of 1 skill=1 crit (and extra hit over 100 converts to extra crit)

[Anouleth]

what about reintroducing Jugdral crits (2x your attack instead of 3x damage), on top of 1 skill=1 crit (and extra hit over 100 converts to extra crit)

Getting hit by criticals in Fire Emblem is frustrating enough when the critical chance is low, but if you're going to dramatically increase the chance of criticals, you need to reduce their power so your units aren't constantly getting killed.

[Snowy_One]

I think just making the extra hit convert over is enough. I mean, look at Mia. In FE9 by just having a Silver Blade (base hit 60) and an A/B support with Rhys/Ilyana (25 hit) she could net 85 hit BEFORE skill and luck is even factored in. That's with the worst blade for accuracy. With a silver sword (unforged) she would have 100 hit and 5% critical before her skill and swordsmaster bonus. With skill at a 1-3 ratio to critical she'd have a whopping 66 critical at level 20-1 BEFORE her swordsmaster bonus. Never mind if she took a KE (25% more critical total in this case) or forged her weapon for extra hit/crit.

In order for Mia to be 'balanced' and not critting on every other attack in this case the base hit for a weapon would need to be reduced by something like 40-60 points.

Course that now screws over people who aren't high-skill units as they now have difficulty hitting at all.

[shadykid]

I think just making the extra hit convert over is enough. I mean, look at Mia. In FE9 by just having a Silver Blade (base hit 60) and an A/B support with Rhys/Ilyana (25 hit) she could net 85 hit BEFORE skill and luck is even factored in. That's with the worst blade for accuracy. With a silver sword (unforged) she would have 100 hit and 5% critical before her skill and swordsmaster bonus. With skill at a 1-3 ratio to critical she'd have a whopping 66 critical at level 20-1 BEFORE her swordsmaster bonus. Never mind if she took a KE (25% more critical total in this case) or forged her weapon for extra hit/crit.

In order for Mia to be 'balanced' and not critting on every other attack in this case the base hit for a weapon would need to be reduced by something like 40-60 points.

Course that now screws over people who aren't high-skill units as they now have difficulty hitting at all.

nope

Marcia still styles on her all day (I doubt she has any hit problems herself in the first place)

[Refa]

I think just making the extra hit convert over is enough. I mean, look at Mia. In FE9 by just having a Silver Blade (base hit 60) and an A/B support with Rhys/Ilyana (25 hit) she could net 85 hit BEFORE skill and luck is even factored in. That's with the worst blade for accuracy. With a silver sword (unforged) she would have 100 hit and 5% critical before her skill and swordsmaster bonus. With skill at a 1-3 ratio to critical she'd have a whopping 66 critical at level 20-1 BEFORE her swordsmaster bonus. Never mind if she took a KE (25% more critical total in this case) or forged her weapon for extra hit/crit.

In order for Mia to be 'balanced' and not critting on every other attack in this case the base hit for a weapon would need to be reduced by something like 40-60 points.

Isn't it better for Mia to have ridiculously good hit? Is that not the MO of swordmasters? I think the crit rate thing is ridiculous, though.

[Snowy_One]

It's a good thing for Mia to have very high hit and crit. That is part of the whole point of a swordmaster. It's broken to have Mia pumping 100% hit rates and ~80% crit rates without a forge, skill, or killer weapon while units who lack skill struggle just to hit (never mind crit).

Maybe what should happen is this.

1) All weapons get a 20-30 point hit reduction or so.

2) All excess hit now goes into critical.

3) Skill no longer boosts crit (by itself).

4) Luck now determines critical (1-1 ratio) without SKL.

5) Critical will use the higher of the two stats (overflow hit or luck) to determine critical ratios.

This way high skill characters can manage to both stack skill and aren't useless while lower-skill characters aren't locked out from critting all together.

[shadykid]

I have a feeling doing that would make FE10 Haar hilarious because even if he gets speed-screwed he'll somehow STILL murder stuff (not to mention units like FE9 Marcia will have a field day critting everything to death)

lowering weapon hit will just make lower-skill characters miss period

Edited June 28, 2013 by shadykid

[dondon151]

i doubt that is any more useful than crit = skl/2

idea: all units do x - y damage on attack where x is based on weapon MT + str/mag and y is based on skl.

Edited June 28, 2013 by dondon151

[shadykid]

i doubt that is any more useful than crit = skl/2

idea: all units do x - y damage on attack where x is based on weapon MT + str/mag and y is based on skl.

so what's defense/resistance for now

[Snowy_One]

i doubt that is any more useful than crit = skl/2

idea: all units do x - y damage on attack where x is based on weapon MT + str/mag and y is based on skl.

The idea isn't to buff crit so much as make skill more useful without screwing over lower-SKL characters. Ideally every character can at least do SOMETHING despite a lack of a certain stat. Units with low STR can be mages/dancers, low MAG can be fighters, low HP ranged, and so-forth. The problem is that the only way to compensate for having low SKL is to avoid fighting entirely. So if we use the overflow hit and the 1:3 skill to hit ratio suddenly SM's go from being meh combat units to critting deities who will crit at LEAST every other attack without bonuses. All the while low-skill units are going to be looking at 0% critical rates and be outright unable to score a critical since they lack the hit, which isn't very fair.

[dondon151]

so what's defense/resistance for now

durrr well you know what i mean.

[shadykid]

The idea isn't to buff crit so much as make skill more useful without screwing over lower-SKL characters. Ideally every character can at least do SOMETHING despite a lack of a certain stat. Units with low STR can be mages/dancers, low MAG can be fighters, low HP ranged, and so-forth. The problem is that the only way to compensate for having low SKL is to avoid fighting entirely. So if we use the overflow hit and the 1:3 skill to hit ratio suddenly SM's go from being meh combat units to critting deities who will crit at LEAST every other attack without bonuses. All the while low-skill units are going to be looking at 0% critical rates and be outright unable to score a critical since they lack the hit, which isn't very fair.

1 skill=3 hit seems unbalanced if 1 speed=/=3 avoid (what is TRS's formula anyway, it's not on the website)

even then, it only makes units that start strong better than the rest