shadykid Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 fixed for accuracy sir ..... *leaves* see what I mean about him joking around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shengar Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 When people begin flinging "Mary Sue" around, its rarely in jest anymore. D: Constable Reggie already pointed it out finely on Virion's flaw, so I guess his out being mary sue. Being awesome all around deosn't instantly makes you mary sue, especially when the said character being kicked into the face because flirting another character. The perfectness of a mary sue is not come from skill or proficiency they have. In fact, some mary sue I know have no skill whatsoever to redeem their quality, but many character regard them, the mary sue character as perfect in any way whatsoever without any proves. I thought Gregor too shouldn't be considered as mary sue because he have many thing to support his awesomeness. If only he have hard time finding employer because his tendency to kill (former) employer, I thought it would make his position more concrete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 If you go back a bit I actually never said that they are a Mary Sue >_> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadykid Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 If you go back a bit I actually never said that they are a Mary Sue >_> exactly, that's why I don't get it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shengar Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 If you go back a bit I actually never said that they are a Mary Sue >_> I thought of that too, but many people could mis-interpret it at it worst. Mine is just a post to remind that awesomeness alone isn't enough to deem a character as marysue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apocryptical Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Personally, I'd like to hear what Reggie's vision of a non-sue Cordelia is. What makes her a bad character/sue? What would it take to not make her thus and how would it affect the overall story? Surely Micaiah's in a no better position but what's the comparison between the two girls? Can't the only Lord-ish mage be something worse/better than the game's version of Cordelia? What do you think, Reggie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Surely Micaiah's in a no better position but what's the comparison between the two girls? Can't the only Lord-ish mage be something worse/better than the game's version of Cordelia? Im not sure why exactly Micaiah is called a Mary Sue by everyone From what I have seen, She's actually one of the more entertaining Lord in the series Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) She's attractive, but obnoxiously whiny. I suppose if one wants a woman who is apparently perfect with a side of self-confidence issues, she's ideal. Personally, I prefer interesting, expressive women (with bonus points for the artistic or tomboyish types), making Morgan, Sully, Cynthia, Noire, Severa, Miriel, or Anna more appealing to me. 4/10. Edited July 7, 2013 by Prometheus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSND Alter Dragon Boner Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Cordelia is unremarkable and flawed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singularity Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Why people call her whiny? she's anything but whiny Also, it's her birthday now, give her some respect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadykid Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) Im not sure why exactly Micaiah is called a Mary Sue by everyone From what I have seen, She's actually one of the more entertaining Lord in the series ehehehe this is gonna get good also hey it's Cordelia's birthday here now! watching wimbledon soon, cya also Prometheus, who doesn't like Morgan, Cynthia, Noire, Severa, and Anna Edited July 7, 2013 by shadykid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) It seems as though those definitions are submitted by random people, and aren't established definitions, which only strengthens my point that the term Mary Sue is vaguely defined and up to debate, as seen by the two applications under Mary Sue that somewhat contradict each other. So as to straight up claim that no discussion is possible because Cordelia can not be a Mary Sue due to your own interpretation of the definition is stupid. Then you can basically claim any character on the planet is a "mary sue" and say "it matches my definition". Making Mary Sue a meaningless term. Particularly when you haven't given your definition and how Cordelia meets it but multiple others don't. "So as to straight up claim that no discussion is possible because Cordelia can't not be a Mary Sue due to your own interpretation of the definition is stupid." I can't prove that's your attitude, but it looked like that Mage guy had an attitude where Cordelia is 100% Sue and there's no getting around it. And even one of your posts has a comment where things like definitions won't get in your way of believing she's a Sue. I think one of the other guys in this thread had a good point. Sue is used for people who don't like characters. "I don't like her so she's a Sue. Now I can convince myself that my irrational video game hate is justified." Edited July 7, 2013 by Narga_Rocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galenforcer Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Cordelia has had her time in the sun to be appreciated, it's time she faces her fair share of criticism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constable Reggie Posted July 7, 2013 Author Share Posted July 7, 2013 (edited) @Narga, I said the term's definition is up for debate, not entirely arbitrary. If we only restrict the term to fanfiction female leads that are obviously inserts for the author and fall in love with the author's favorite character, then that doesn't allow for any discussion. Hell, people calling Micaiah a Sue would be 100% wrong under this definition too. Same with Ike, since male Mary Sue's couldn't possibly exist. Personally, I'd like to hear what Reggie's vision of a non-sue Cordelia is. What makes her a bad character/sue? What would it take to not make her thus and how would it affect the overall story? Surely Micaiah's in a no better position but what's the comparison between the two girls? Can't the only Lord-ish mage be something worse/better than the game's version of Cordelia? What do you think, Reggie? My definition of Mary Sue doesn't include trivialities like having to be the main character, or having to be in a fanfic, or having to be an insert for the author or all that bullshit, it focuses primarily on the character itself, how they act, how they are responded to, rather than the pointless background details. Basically, "Does this character have any (real) flaws? Are they constantly praised by other characters for being so amazing? How are they as a character, instead of what labels do they have?" When the character eschews any sort of characterization or character development, when all sense of realness is lost simply to portray the character as perfect, and praised by everyone as perfect, that's when I consider them a Mary Sue. I don't consider Micaiah a Mary Sue because a) the game makes it clear that the Daien people are blindly putting their praise onto her. They consider her a symbol, rather than a person, and her being afraid to reveal anything about herself due to what would happen if they found out is a real flaw in my eyes, and b) every part 3 Daein chapter, especially the oil one. Those are real flaws in Micaiah's character, and it's real character development. Cordelia, on the other hand, is, as far as I know, pointlessly praised in most of her conversations for her perfectness (see: CordeliaxFred's awful conversations). The fact that she doesn't really have to try hurts her character even more. The game tries to portray her Chrom clinginess as a flaw, but if anything, that's only endearing at most, and is as much a character flaw as Bella's clumsiness. The survivor guilt part, had it actually been expanded, could have been something great, but it's glossed over at best, and with the way it's portrayed, only strengthens the point that Cordelia is so perfect. The fact that she's so damn exceptional, without even trying, without any real flaws, leads to an easy collapse of suspension of disbelief, and I say that full well with Gaius and Kellam in mind. For Cordelia to not be a Mary Sue, some of the following would have to happen: -Get rid of, or greatly reduce, the perfectness and the conversations that only exist to praise her. It's a detriment to her character in every way. -Put much more emphasis on the survivor guilt. See Fiora for how you do this correctly. -Chrom swooning is a gimmick at best. If you want to include this as a character trait, you can't half-ass it like IS did. -Get rid of Severa's current personality entirely. It only hurts both Severa and Cordelia. Edited July 7, 2013 by Constable Reggie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amadeuscho Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Cordelia is a great unit. I wish you could pair her up with Chrom so Severa and Lucina could be sisters. I like her personality. It's nice to see some unrequited love in the series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 (edited) Cordelia's fine. I wouldn't hate her, if I did meet her in real life. She hated being called a "genius". I like her because of Severa. Edited July 16, 2013 by Carter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom037 Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 I think the issue with Cordelia is that unlike other characters, she never has a support conversation that explores her flaws. With every other character you can find at least one support that shows they aren't perfect (Gaius with Panne, Kellam with Panne, Panne with Donnel) and Cordelia's are too glanced over to be considered real imperfections and as a result lean more towards quirks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reginleif Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Ignore her Chrom issues, and you'll find that Cordelia is an amazing character, especially in her supports with Severa. She's super talented, modest, caring, and intelligent. I absolutely love her character. I don't love how she obsesses over Chrom. She's too good for Chrom IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 In my latest playthrough she was RNG-screwed, so I no longer enjoy her very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasori Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 (edited) I never really saw her as overly perfect. She's portrayed as a prodigy soldier, but outside of that area she isn't portrayed as being perfect. Yeah she had some other talents like music, but people don't go on and on about that. Her C support with Avatar implies she's a bit of a workaholic and wasn't her entire support with Libra about her calming down a little? Besdides I don't think the praise is that bad. The only characters who overly praise her are Freddy who has a crush on her and Donny and that's because Donny is Donny and I don't recall him being negative to any other character. Edited July 30, 2013 by Sasori Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunaSaint Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Oh, it's this thread. Honestly, there are plenty of Cordelias in real life. She's naturally talented, with a strong competitive drive. This'll lead to a terrible perfectionist streak, where she's mentally criticising everything she does wrong. It happens. It's very real. The perfectionist/competitive attitudes also mean that when she sees people 'doing it wrong', she's liable to tell them exactly what they're doing wrong and need to do instead. Does this seem familiar? People telling strangers that they're doing it wrong? Then there's the odd moment of humanity in her supports; off-hand, Cordy/Stahl comes to mind. She expresses her regret at not really being to make new discoveries during practise herself. The Chrom thing was a pretty bad idea though. Honestly, I think the character concept is fine. IS definitely could have implemented it much better, though. Should come as no surprise that the competitive, elitist character isn't the most likeable though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 You know, the localisation teams should really remove things like 'breast size concerns' because that really doesn't translate across cultures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxxie Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 In terms of Cordelia, I get what everyone says about her being crafted as a "perfect" who loves only Chrom and how that can come off as annoying. Personally, I've always ranked characters in terms of usability as a unit and how much I liked them in-game. Cordelia's a great unit for me right now and that gives her bonus points with me right away. Sure, it depresses me that there wasn't more time spent on her being the only survivor of her squadron, but her interactions with Severa make up for that, in a way. In fact, I think Severa's character, which is an integral part of Cordelia's character by nature of their relation, sheds a lot of light on Cordelia and makes her a little more real, if not more likable. If someone said to me, "Hey, do you want to play a FE game that focuses only on Cordelia?", I'd politely refuse. On her own as a character, she's a bit of a void. She works well with the cast of Awakening, her skills as a unit make her playable, and her daughter is arguably one of my favorite characters in the game so that's reason enough for me to like her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomichael Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 On my first playthrough, I never touched Sumia, because I thought she would be a horrible unit. And then, when Cordelia came in Chapter 7, I thought she was great, since her starting stats were better. At least by a little bit. So now, I just like Cordelia because of what happened in my first playthrough. In terms of personality, I think she's fine. There's nothing that's actually wrong with her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Of course she's a terrible character - she has Aspergers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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