Esau of Isaac Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Seriously. You really want to see that instead of, oh I don't know, what the thread titles say is in there? Hell to the yeah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 I would like some actual examples of where the current system is failed. Otherwise, it's theoretical, which is a lot harder to iron out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 I preferred talking with people on IRC and MSN over using the warning system. But obviously that was much more feasible when a large proportion of active members on the forum frequented the IRC channel and "large proportion" meant roughly thirty-five odd people than it would be now. Members also tended to be pretty shy about using the report function when it was first added, but from the sounds of it that's no longer the case. Anyways, the ticket system (as I remember it, it may have changed before it was removed) seemed to have the same weakness as strength: that only moderators and whoever lodged the complaint or suggestion could post in the ticket. The ticket system was essentially introduced provide a solid reason to be intolerant of arguments between members and staff in any thread (as well as streamlining "suggestion" threads); complaints had there own designated location, and in that location nobody could incite further argument or rally for or against anyone, member or moderator (unless people collaborated to post tickets en mass, which I never saw that happen but my level of activity has been consistently low for a long time now). I think one argument Rehab is trying to get across (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that other members' inability to publicly discuss any perceived moderation issues on the forum inherently prevents multiple members from holding moderators accountable for particular decisions. If a legitimate and major issue becomes apparent, the restrictive nature of the ticket system makes it difficult for members to call it out because it can only be properly discussed on another platform. As you're stating, the ticket system obviously also probably prevents a lot of antisocial arguments from kindling (out of curiosity, is there any known correlation between the introduction of the ticket system and the rise of stupid reports?). I'm in a rush now so right now I'm probably not going to end up posting anything insightful, so long story short I liked the old feedback forum because it provided a space for people to provide and discuss and develop, well, feedback, not just on moderation either, so in essence the ticket system attempted to eliminate flaming and unproductive argument in exchange for limiting potentially constructive discussion. It's short sighted to ridicule the idea that the current set of rules and systems of inquiry discourages members from addressing moderation concerns (even if some people are happy to use the report function quite liberally) because although I wasn't a moderator when it was introduced I noticed a drop in accountability (not saying it's led to any issues, but the social safeguard, needed or not, was unarguably weakened). The current implementation appears to be reliable (it certainly helps a lot that the staff aren't malevolent, but then the forum would likely reduce in size anyways), but I think it's worth continually assessing its validity, no matter if it's decided the current system is best kept as is for the time being. Sorry this isn't better organized and could be much clearer, but I have to go now. Notice what I was ridiculing, though. I was not ridiculing the idea of making, say, a thread with the purpose of complaining about mod decisions (though that would so get wiped, due to the rule, but I am not ridiculing the idea). It was just the idea that you'd go into a thread about best class and see an argument by a few members that don't like how a moderator implemented a given rule in the midst of some argument or whatever in the topic. That is an idea deserving of ridicule. also, the ticket system, not sure if it was intentional or not, allowed anybody to post in public tickets. The rest of us mods, as far as I know, never actually got an answer for whether it was indeed intended to be that way. One of the updates did that to the ticket system. I think you are right that, originally, only the guy making the ticket could post in it, aside from us mods. As for his potential point that you outlined, it's only actually true if you assume Tang and Vincent don't listen to en masse PM complaints about mods. Like, if a dozen or so people all PM'd with reasonably logical arguments about a particular mod being a mega-bastard, that's about as effective, probably moreso, even, as a thread argument at achieving this goal of "multiple members [..] holding moderators accountable for particular decisions." You present a case to the admins, and they decide what to go and do with it. Whether you clog up a thread or use the PM system, there is no difference in the possibility of punishment or removal of the mod. You are just left with a flood of posts in a thread that don't belong there if you use the former approach. And if you like having the whole public record for it, that's the ticket system. Even if only the original poster can post in the ticket, (s)he could get PMs from others and post them in the ticket. It's been done before in tickets by people trying to help out banned members. I'll admit that's a little annoying you can't post directly, but it's not like it's a major obstacle or anything. Or something that even existed after one of the other updates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deleted35362 Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 (edited) Do you really want our threads polluted with argument after argument with a mod about a guy saying "oh don't invis my post and don't add to my warn bar. Crash deserved to be flamed there, trust me!" lol why is a banned member being used as an example of a victim? Sorry this isn't better organized and could be much clearer, but I have to go now. My planet needs me. *bows* Edited July 13, 2013 by Boney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freohr Datia Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Are rehab, narga, eclipse and wist trying to create a live action! discussion to show an example of what it's like to be a moderator for gold vanguard/this topic? =o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 lol why is a banned member being used as an example of a victim? Are you saying banned members deserved to be flamed any time they were flamed? I hope not. Flaming is flaming, even if the guy later gets banned for whatever. I think he was a great example because we sometimes got complaints "but it's crash" or whatever as if that excused whatever rules they broke while interacting with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wist Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 I remember the backlash when the ticket system was introduced and it didn't allow other members to post in them. I hadn't realized, whether intentional or unintentional, it allowed anyone to post in tickets before its temporary removal. Personally, I like that much better because It allows for an easier exchange of ideas, perspectives, and criticisms while still enabling members to instigate what were essentially private conversations with the staff if member's so chose (was the ticket system ever fixed to allow people to post threads secretly?). It also of course still gives a clear reason to relocate any arguments about moderation outside of discussion threads. Does the private messaging system still allow for other members to invited into conversations? Sorry this isn't better organized and could be much clearer, but I have to go now. My planet needs me. *bows* Planet Wist! Are you saying banned members deserved to be flamed any time they were flamed? I hope not. Flaming is flaming, even if the guy later gets banned for whatever. I think he was a great example because we sometimes got complaints "but it's crash" or whatever as if that excused whatever rules they broke while interacting with him. It happened to a few people, but (in my experience) Crash was the most notable case. Remember the blackmail issue... two or three years ago? It's deplorable how some members were treated by other people on the forum, and for such extended periods of time. I'm very glad the staff never fell into that (presumably?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 (edited) Yeah I'd really like to hear what these supposed problems with the pre-update ticket system is. You could say whatever you wanted and anyone could back you up. Worst thing I can think of is that it was in a strange location. It happened to a few people, but (in my experience) Crash was the most notable case. Remember the blackmail issue... two or three years ago? It's deplorable how some members were treated by other people on the forum, and for such extended periods of time. I'm very glad the staff never fell into that (presumably?). You mean you don't remember when I used you to pull some strings? Edited July 13, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deleted35362 Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 red tang of fire reveals her secret!! O.O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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